Who had a better ground game?

[mike danny]

if that variety is from the ground: slice, dropshots etc. that is a part of ground game.

Yeah, but I'm mostly talking about the usual ground game involving the BH and FH exchanges.

 

[abmk]

Yeah, but I'm mostly talking about the usual ground game involving the BH and FH exchanges.

I got that, but what I'm saying that slice, dropshots should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

 

[mike danny]

I got that, but what I'm saying that slice, dropshots should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

I know, but when people talk about ground game they will always refer to what I said.

 

[abmk]

Also I think 2011 Djokovic offense could equal Federer’s peak offense while he was simultaneously better at defending. That guy was like a wall, impenetrable off both wings.

no, he couldn't.

 

[BrokenGears]

Yeah true. On faster surfaces Fed would blast winners past him. On the slower ones Djokovic can play backboard with his controlled aggression.

Fed ain't Stan. How is Federer supposed to hit through Nole? He can do it, but you're making it seem like it would be easy

 

[abmk]

Even if Djokovic's ground game is firing, if Fed's serve is on fire, there is not much Djokovic can do. So the serve will be crucial in a peak Fedovic encounter.

@abmk, can you provide me an instance of a match where every component of peak Federer's game was firing, including the serve?

Roddick Wim 03 SF
Scud Wim 03 F
Roddick Wim 05 F

Agassi TMC 03 F
Hewitt TMC 04 F

Hewitt USO 04 F (BH wasn't on-fire per se, but it was working well in sets 1&3)

just some matches on top of my head.

 

[abmk]

How was 2012 Nole and 2014 Nole peak?

let me guess : 2015 Nole wasn't peak either.
He lost to Federer on fast HC in dubai 15 and Cincy 15 in straights after all, no ?

 

[KINGROGER]

Fed ain't Stan. How is Federer supposed to hit through Nole? He can do it, but you're making it seem like it would be easy

Any of their 07-09 USO matches and part of 2011.
Any Cincy or Dubai match.
Any Shanghai match.

 

[True Fanerer]

I got that, but what I'm saying that slice, dropshots should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

Federer so good at making a point start all over again by neutralizing with the slice. This shot gets overlooked.

 

[Standaa]

no, he couldn't.

I meant an offensive groundstrokes, Fed was obviously better at going to the net for an easy putaway whereas Djokovic stayed at the baseline to play a FH/BH even when there was a clear chance for charging the net. Federer’s FH also was a bigger shot but Djokovic had a better BH that could play offensive from many more positions. What makes you so sure Peakerer’s groundstrokes were better at being offensive?

@abmk

 

[abmk]

Federer so good at making a point start all over again by neutralizing with the slice. This shot gets overlooked.

that plus the slice/variety disrupts the rhythm of so many players.

 

[BrokenGears]

let me guess : 2015 Nole wasn't peak either.
He lost to Federer on fast HC in dubai 15 and Cincy 15 in straights after all, no ?

2015 Nole overrated. Peak serve, lacking ground game. High percentage game was good tho

Any of their 07-09 USO matches and part of 2011.
Any Cincy or Dubai match.
Any Shanghai match.

07-09 very peak Nole I agree

 

[abmk]

2015 Nole overrated. Peak serve, lacking ground game

ground game was lesser than 2011 , but he didn't lack ground game.

so, if by your logic, peak djoko is only one year, 2011, that's pretty poor.
oh wait, but that's not right. 2011 wasn't djoko's only peak year. its just your sorry set of excuses.

 

[BrokenGears]

ground game was lesser than 2011 , but he didn't lack ground game.

so, if by your logic, peak djoko is only one year, 2011, that's pretty poor.
oh wait, but that's not right. 2011 wasn't djoko's only peak year. its just your sorry set of excuses.

Edited post. Shots were lacking bite, but very high percentage.

This is Peakest Peak lol. Please stop wanking to Federer and take a class in reading.

 

[metsman]

Fed's ground game was a bit better on grass and quicker hards, Djoker's is better on slower hards and clay. Very simple.

 

[mike danny]

Fed ain't Stan. How is Federer supposed to hit through Nole? He can do it, but you're making it seem like it would be easy

Fed ain't Stan, but he hit through Nole just fine in 2011. Don't let recency bias affect you.

 

[abmk]

Edited post. Shots were lacking bite, but very high percentage.

This is Peakest Peak lol. Please stop wanking to Federer and take a class in reading.

nope. thread says : who had a better ground game and poll options are peak federer vs peak djokovic.
it doesn't necessarily mention the years for both of them.

I already answered the thread question. if you had bothered to read , you'd know :

depends :
on grass federer.
HC : it goes from favouring djoko on the slower ones to fed on the faster ones (I think slight edge to djoko overall)
clay : close, about even.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/who-had-a-better-ground-game.616173/#post-12249151

Now actually read instead of lecturing others about reading and making up fancy dreams about others.

 

[zagor]

Novak is my pick. Fed might have the edge on few fast surfaces today but that's more hitting with the intention of moving forward than a straight-out baseline war.

Fed's advantages over Novak lie in his variety (BH slice, netplay, pace and spin variation) and serve, not in trading groundies.

 

[BrokenGears]

nope. thread says : who had a better ground game and poll options are peak federer vs peak djokovic.
it doesn't necessarily mention the years for both of them.

I already answered the thread question. if you had bothered to read , you'd know :

depends :
on grass federer.
HC : it goes from favouring djoko on the slower ones to fed on the faster ones (I think slight edge to djoko overall)
clay : close, about even.

Now actually read instead of lecturing others about reading and making up fancy dreams about others.

This is Peak Djokovic vs Peak Federer lol. Peak Nole was 2011.

 

[mike danny]

Novak is my pick. Fed might have the edge on few fast surfaces today but that's more hitting with the intention of moving forward than a straight-out baseline war.

Fed's advantages over Novak lie in his variety (BH slice, netplay, pace and spin variation) and serve, not in trading groundies.

This.

Novak is a more complete baseliner than Federer, but Federer is the more complete player as a full package.

 

[BrokenGears]

Fed ain't Stan, but he hit through Nole just fine in 2011. Don't let recency bias affect you.

In one match where he was playing fearlessly. And it wasn't like it was an everyday occurence

 

[abmk]

Novak is my pick. Fed might have the edge on few fast surfaces today but that's more hitting with the intention of moving forward than a straight-out baseline war.

Fed's advantages over Novak lie in his variety (BH slice, netplay, pace and spin variation) and serve, not in trading groundies.

et tu ?

ground game isn't only about trading groundstrokes.

I was just mentioning slice, dropshots etc (part of variety) should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

 

[mike danny]

In one match where he was playing fearlessly. And it wasn't like it was an everyday occurence

2 matches actually: RG and USO. He was an inch away from winning both.

 

[mike danny]

et tu ?

ground game isn't only about trading groundstrokes.

I was just mentioning slice, dropshots etc (part of variety) should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

I agree with you, however, the bolded is what most people will associate ground game with.

 

[abmk]

I agree with you, however, the bolded is that most people will associate ground game with.

unfortunately so. But shouldn't be so.

 

[BrokenGears]

2 matches actually: RG and USO. He was an inch away from winning both.

And Djokovic's defense held throughout both matches.

 

[BrokenGears]

et tu ?

ground game isn't only about trading groundstrokes.

I was just mentioning slice, dropshots etc (part of variety) should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

Nole is one of the fastest players on tour. He handles slices and dropshots just fine.

 

[BrokenGears]

Also Nole has the better return, so he will be able to put pressure on Fed

 

[mike danny]

And Djokovic's defense held throughout both matches.

It did. But Federer could still hit though him. And that wasn't even peak Federer.

Djokovic's defense at his peak was impeccable. But so was Fed's offense at his peak. Great offense will beat great defense.

 

[zagor]

et tu ?

ground game isn't only about trading groundstrokes.

I was just mentioning slice, dropshots etc (part of variety) should be included when talking about ground game. it isn't just bh & fh exchanges.

We might have a different definition then but c'mon Novak's ground game in 2011 on the whole was ridiculous by any standards. It's not a controversial pick.

 

[abmk]

We might have a different definition then but c'mon Novak's ground game in 2011 on the whole was ridiculous by any standards. It's not a controversial pick.

I'd pick Novak too (unless it was grass or a fast HC), but that's not the point : I was talking about the definition of ground game.

 

[BrokenGears]

It did. But Federer could still hit though him. And that wasn't even peak Federer.

Djokovic's defense at his peak was impeccable. But so was Fed's offense at his peak. Great offense will beat great defense.

Fed's offense was great ofc. But no one's offense is hitting through Nole 100% of the time. Plus Djokovic is the best at turning offense into defense.

How does Nadal win then?

 

[abmk]

Nole is one of the fastest players on tour. He handles slices and dropshots just fine.

11 Nole actually handled slices worse than 15 Nole (under Becker). most visible in the RG 11 match.
But point of thread was ground game vs the field in general. Not just about Fed vs Nole.

 

[ak24alive]

Even if Djokovic's ground game is firing, if Fed's serve is on fire, there is not much Djokovic can do. So the serve will be crucial in a peak Fedovic encounter.

@abmk, can you provide me an instance of a match where every component of peak Federer's game was firing, including the serve?

I don't know about peak game but in the final of 2017 AO his backhand, forehand and serve all were firing. I don't see Novak beating him in that match. Generally Novak like many others try to break his BH and it wasn't to be broken that day. FH has never been a problem for Fed particularly and certainly not in that match. Serve was spot on. Movement was very good too and he was flying all over the court. Also if you take into consideration the fact that Novak has a vulnerability towards heavy hitters like Stan who can blow Novak off the court with the speed of their ground strokes(which is exactly what Fed was doing that AO), I think Fed would have taken Novak down that day if they were to meet. Those backhands would have done the job against anyone that day. Its just a pity that he kind of lost those BHs after Miami 2017.

Also pick any match of Rog from IW '17. You will get the all component firing combo there too.

 

[BrokenGears]

I don't know about peak game but in the final of 2017 AO his backhand, forehand and serve all were firing. I don't see Novak beating him in that match. Generally Novak like many others try to break his BH and it wasn't to be broken that day. FH has never been a problem for Fed particularly and certainly not in that match. Serve was spot on. Movement was very good too and he was flying all over the court. Also if you take into consideration the fact that Novak has a vulnerability towards heavy hitters like Stan who can blow Novak off the court with the speed of their ground strokes(which is exactly what Fed was doing that AO), I think Fed would have taken Novak down that day if they were to meet. Those backhands would have done the job against anyone that day. Its just a pity that he kind of lost those BHs after Miami 2017.

Also pick any match of Rog from IW '17. You will get the all component firing combo there too.

Lol.

 

[zagor]

I'd pick Novak too (unless it was grass or a fast HC), but that's not the point : I was talking about the definition of ground game.

So what all falls under ground game then? Fed has much better transition game (approach shot and volley) than Novak for example (which certainly helped him tremendously against the field if not in their direct match-ups as much) but where would that factor in?

 

[mike danny]

Fed's offense was great ofc. But no one's offense is hitting through Nole 100% of the time. Plus Djokovic is the best at turning offense into defense.

How does Nadal win then?

Nadal was also a bad match-up for Fed because of his FH to BH pattern. There are no match-up issues in the Fedovic rivalry.

Plus Fed had mental issues vs Nadal that he didn't have vs Nole until his best weapon, the FH, disappeared in 2014.

 

[BrokenGears]

11 Nole actually handled slices worse than 15 Nole (under Becker). most visible in the RG 11 match.
But point of thread was ground game vs the field in general. Not just about Fed vs Nole.

He still handles slices well.

 

[mike danny]

I don't know about peak game but in the final of 2017 AO his backhand, forehand and serve all were firing. I don't see Novak beating him in that match. Generally Novak like many others try to break his BH and it wasn't to be broken that day. FH has never been a problem for Fed particularly and certainly not in that match. Serve was spot on. Movement was very good too and he was flying all over the court. Also if you take into consideration the fact that Novak has a vulnerability towards heavy hitters like Stan who can blow Novak off the court with the speed of their ground strokes(which is exactly what Fed was doing that AO), I think Fed would have taken Novak down that day if they were to meet. Those backhands would have done the job against anyone that day. Its just a pity that he kind of lost those BHs after Miami 2017.

Also pick any match of Rog from IW '17. You will get the all component firing combo there too.

FH was actually a big reason why Fed couldn't beat Novak in GS in 2014-2015. His FH let him down big time, especially at 2015 USO.

Tough to say which would have been nicer: Fed overcoming Nole at AO 2017 or Nadal? I think overcoming Nadal was much sweeter.

 

[Apun94]

You guys are forgetting 2011 Djoker played post-peak Fed and essentially lost almost 2/3 slam meetings. Hey got very lucky at USO.

We are only talking about their ground game. Federer's serve was the difference in their slam meetings in '11. He wasnt taking apart Djoko from the ground

 

[ak24alive]

FH was actually a big reason why Fed couldn't beat Novak in GS in 2014-2015. His FH let him down big time, especially at 2015 USO.

Tough to say which would have been nicer: Fed overcoming Nole at AO 2017 or Nadal? I think overcoming Nadal was much sweeter.

It would be fun though if Novak gets his form back and Roger gets that monster of a BH back. And they fight it out in a USO semifinal once again. Fed wins it. Meets Nad in Finals and then slay.

 

[mike danny]

It would be fun though if Novak gets his form back and Roger gets that monster of a BH back. And they fight it out in a USO semifinal once again. Fed wins it. Meets Nad in Finals and then slay.

Nah, Fed at 37 is not going to beat Djokodal in consecutive matches at 37 to win a GS on a very slow HC. That's mission impossible.

 

[ak24alive]

Nah, Fed at 37 is not going to beat Djokodal in consecutive matches at 37 to win a GS on a very slow HC. That's mission impossible.

A lot of things were mission impossible 2 years ago. Weren't they?
But yeah I obviously see where you are coming from. Still I say no to "no Fed can't". Why??
1) I am a devotee.
2) I am a dreamer.
3) He is Roger Federer after all.

 

[ak24alive]

Lol.

 

[KINGROGER]

2015 Nole overrated. Peak serve, lacking ground game. High percentage game was good tho



07-09 very peak Nole I agree

Thought you just meant when has Fed hit through Nole.

As for peak Nole, I contend the earlier matches listed. I’m still not understanding how 2012-2014 isn’t peak Nole either, 2012 basically same as 2011 except way better indoors, faced stronger opponent at Wimbledon and USO lost tight match to peak Murray in the hurricane.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Peak Djokovic, of course.

 

[ak24alive]

Peak Djokovic, of course.

 

[Raining hopes]

How was 2012 Nole and 2014 Nole peak?

Yep Djokovic was in peak as he reached 3 and 2 slam finals Just like Peak Federer in 2015,heck he is even peakier than Fed in 2015 because he made 3 GS Finals in 2012 .It is a fact you know, your eyes and tennis knowledge has no say over it.3 GS in a year: a peak stat => Peak unplayable form only meant to lose to even peakier player in finals,no?

 

[ak24alive]

Yep Djokovic was in peak as he reached 3 and 2 slam finals Just like Peak Federer in 2015,heck he is even peakier than Fed in 2015 because he made 3 GS Finals in 2012 .It is a fact you know, your eyes and tennis knowledge has no say over it.3 GS in a year: a peak stat => Peak unplayable form only meant to lose to even peakier player in finals,no?

 

[abmk]

So what all falls under ground game then? Fed has much better transition game (approach shot and volley) than Novak for example (which certainly helped him tremendously against the field if not in their direct match-ups as much) but where would that factor in?

I'd include any kind of play that occured from the baseline ...approach shots are a part of that, not volleys at the net