Who is better on hard courts: Nadal or Murray?

[The_Mental_Giant]

It is not that simple. Tennis is not the math. Stats are like a bikini.

Djokovic > Murray > Nadal everywhere outside clay.

Lmao..

Nadal peak in grass was much higher than djokovic one... Nadal from 2006-2011 destroys djokovic at 2014 in grass.. keep dreaming kid...

1)Rafa 2) Murray 3) Djokovic when it comes to grass top level... of course if we consider achievements then murray has to be third and djokovic second...

in HC

Slow hards 1) Djokovic 2) Nadal 3) Murray all the three play excellent here..

Mid-Faster Hard (North american swing) 1) Nadal 2) Djokovic 3) murray

Indoor Hard (low bounce. 1) Djokovic 2) Nadal 3) Murray.... Nadal and Murray are pretty close ,,, djokovic separates from the other two here.

 

[Sysyphus]

Lmao..

Nadal peak in grass was much higher than djokovic one... Nadal from 2006-2011 destroys djokovic at 2014 in grass.. keep dreaming kid...

If you indicate that Nadal was at his grass peak in 2011, then it doesn't make much sense to say that his peak on grass > Novak's. Novak dominated him in 2011. I might have misunderstood you though.

 

[Flint]

Is this a serious question or a joke?

Nadal has 3 hard court Grand Slams and a gold medal to Murrays 1 hard court Grand Slam.

Nadal has therefore been the better hard court player.

Earlier in this thread someone said Nadal was a one surface player. 5 non clay Grand Slams makes that a foolish sentiment.

 

[Mainad]

Is this a serious question or a joke?

Nadal has 3 hard court Grand Slams and a gold medal to Murrays 1 hard court Grand Slam.

Nadal has therefore been the better hard court player.

Well, if you're going to include the Olympic gold medal, why not Masters titles which are worth more in terms of ranking points? Murray has 9 HC Masters to Nadal's 8. I agree that Nadal's superior HC Slam count puts him ahead but the gap in terms of their overall achievements on this surface is actually not that large.

Earlier in this thread someone said Nadal was a one surface player. 5 non clay Grand Slams makes that a foolish sentiment.

That, of course, is nonsense. Nadal holds multiple titles on all 3 surfaces although he has had his best results on clay.

 

[jm1980]

If you indicate that Nadal was at his grass peak in 2011, then it doesn't make much sense to say that his peak on grass > Novak's. Novak dominated him in 2011. I might have misunderstood you though.

I think he meant 2011 Nadal would destroy 2014 Djokovic.

Not really sure about that one either, since 2011 Djokovic easily beat 2011 Nadal and there isn't a huge difference between 2014 Djokovic and 2011 Djokovic.

 

[Djokovic2011]

I think he meant 2011 Nadal would destroy 2014 Djokovic.

Not really sure about that one either, since 2011 Djokovic easily beat 2011 Nadal and there isn't a huge difference between 2014 Djokovic and 2011 Djokovic.

2014 Djokovic would carve up 2011 Nadal.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

If you indicate that Nadal was at his grass peak in 2011, then it doesn't make much sense to say that his peak on grass > Novak's. Novak dominated him in 2011. I might have misunderstood you though.

sorry I meant 2006-2010... nadal peak in grass was 2007-2008

 

[Flint]

Well, if you're going to include the Olympic gold medal, why not Masters titles

For me personally, an Olympic gold is the best thing after Grand slams. If I could choose only 1 more career title for Murray and it couldn't be a Grand Slam I would give him another gold medal. But thats an argument for another thread.

Nadal is clearly the better hard court player.

Though neither have retired and both can win more Grand Slams.

 

[Gary Duane]

2014 Djokovic would carve up 2011 Nadal.

Stats for both of them on HC are actually very close for those years...

 

[Djokovic2011]

Stats for both of them on HC are actually very close for those years...

I was referring to grass Gary. :wink:

 

[Gary Duane]

Nadal is clearly the better hard court player.

What do you base that on?

 

[Gary Duane]

I was referring to grass Gary. :wink:

OH.

That's quite a different matter.

Never mind. (Miss Emily Litella).

Career stats on Nadal and Novak, only on HCs, are amazingly even.

 

[Sysyphus]

sorry I meant 2006-2010... nadal peak in grass was 2007-2008

Ok, no worries. Yeah, I would probably agree that Nadal's 2007-2008 level would be higher. But imo Djokovic level at Wimby in 2011-2014 has been very solid, so I think it's a tricky question.

I think he meant 2011 Nadal would destroy 2014 Djokovic.

Not really sure about that one either, since 2011 Djokovic easily beat 2011 Nadal and there isn't a huge difference between 2014 Djokovic and 2011 Djokovic.

Yeah, I agree. 2014 Novak should likely be favored against 2011 Nads.

 

[NatF]

I think he meant 2011 Nadal would destroy 2014 Djokovic.

Not really sure about that one either, since 2011 Djokovic easily beat 2011 Nadal and there isn't a huge difference between 2014 Djokovic and 2011 Djokovic.

I think Djokovic was even better in the Wimbledon 2014 final than the 2011 one.

 

[Flint]

What do you base that on?

Grand Slams

 

[chjtennis]

You seem to be forgetting that Murray has a HC Slam to his name so what do you mean that he can never get it done on the big stage? Yes, Nadal has 2 more HC Slams which puts him ahead but not by THAT much, I mean we're talking 3-1 here not 7-1 and, as I have already said, they are extremely close in their personal H2H at the HC Slams and in other big HC events!

Nadal is obviously way ahead of Murray on clay (9 Slams to 0) but only slightly ahead on HC (3 Slams to 1) and on grass (2 Slams to 1)!

Well, I'd say Murray is quite even with Rafa on HC but for some reasons Rafa does a little bit better on the big stages.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

I agree the distance is not as big as some people make it to be.. murray on peak in HC stands quite close to the rest of the BIg 4... let alone if we talk about his grass peak. Clay is the only surface where Murray peak lag considerably behind.. although it isnt bad either.. considering the way he played this year in RG prior the match with nadal.... But its quite far (well who isnt) from the level displayed by rafa in RG 2008 or even 2010, Djokovic in Rome 2011 or RG 2012.. and ROger in the match or madrid 2006 (despite loss his level was insane) or Hamburg 2007.

Murray was nearly on Djokovic's level in Rome 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ37c1m7ByA

 

[Deleted member 307496]

I think Djokovic was even better in the Wimbledon 2014 final than the 2011 one.

2014 Djokovic would probably beat 2011 Nadal in 5 sets. He's a notch down from his 2011 level but he is still enough to put away 2011 Nadal in my opinion.

 

[Netspirit]

A better question would be: who is better on clay - Nadal or Murray?

 

[Chico]

A better question would be: who is better on clay - Nadal or Murray?

That is clearly Nadal. No question about it. Just like it is Murray on HC (and grass as well).

 

[cc0509]

What is the argument for Murray here? 3 slams to 1 and more slam finals speaks clearly. Subjectively as well, I think Nadal's highest level on HC is monstrous, better than anything I've seen Murray produce on any surface.

Yes, I agree with that. I think he has improved the most on hardcourts and when he is playing well on them he is lethal. A perfect example is the AO 2014 vs Federer or the USO 2013 vs Djokovic. Forget it, no chance for either Federer or Djokovic when Nadal is playing like that on hc.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

That is clearly Nadal. No question about it. Just like it is Murray on HC (and grass as well).

Well kid you didnt learn maths at school

NAdal 3 hc slams- murray 1
Nadal 9 Clay slams - Murray 0
Nadal 2 GRass slams (5 finals) - Murray 1 Grass slam (2 finals)
Nadal 1 Olympic singles gold Hardcourts - Murray 0
Nadal 8 M1000 Hc titles (15 finals), Murray 9 M1000 single titles (12 finals)

Now lets see the h2h..

Claycourts... Nadal leads 6-0 (Nadal leads 2-0 in RG)
Hardcourts .. Nadal leads 6-5 (2-2 in slams)
Grass.... Nadal leads 3-0 (3-0 at wimbledon)


So much argument for you little boy...

 

[Chico]

Well kid you didnt learn maths at school

NAdal 3 hc slams- murray 1
Nadal 9 Clay slams - Murray 0
Nadal 2 GRass slams (5 finals) - Murray 1 Grass slam (2 finals)
Nadal 1 Olympic singles gold Hardcourts - Murray 0
Nadal 8 M1000 Hc titles (15 finals), Murray 9 M1000 single titles (12 finals)

Now lets see the h2h..

Claycourts... Nadal leads 6-0 (Nadal leads 2-0 in RG)
Hardcourts .. Nadal leads 6-5 (2-2 in slams)
Grass.... Nadal leads 3-0 (3-0 at wimbledon)


So much argument for you little boy...

No need for insults and condescension. Just hurts your cause. So please don't try to pull that any more. It simply does not work . Thanks.

Now. :roll: I explained it already several times:

It is not that simple. Tennis is not the math. Stats are like a bikini.

Djokovic > Murray > Nadal everywhere outside clay.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

No need for insults and condescension. Just hurts your cause. So please don't try to pull that any more. It simply does not work . Thanks.

Now. :roll: I explained it already several times:

You are pushing an agenda that has no sustainability.. Just admit it for once...


Stats are stats... but its not only a single number... Rafa has more achievements... better results against murray and better results against the field... so how is Murray the better player? nadal owns him in all surfaces, and pretty much has more than double/triple of important achievements in all surfaces outside clay

 

[Djokovic2011]

Yes, I agree with that. I think he has improved the most on hardcourts and when he is playing well on them he is lethal. A perfect example is the AO 2014 vs Federer or the USO 2013 vs Djokovic. Forget it, no chance for either Federer or Djokovic when Nadal is playing like that on hc.

Peak Federer and Djokovic on HC > peak Nadal on HC cc0.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

Peak Federer and Djokovic on HC > peak Nadal on HC cc0.

Peak djokovic at USO doesnt beat peak nadal at USO....

Djokovic is better indoors and in slow HC ... Rafa is better in Faster higher bouncing HC (aka north american Swing)

And Rafa met peak federer at Australian Open in 2009 and he pretty much beat him fair and square, Peak Rafa in HC Beat Federer in AO and Djokovic in USO. We dont know how he would fare against Fed in USO:... the match would be extremely close....

I think peak Rafa would only lose to Peak Sampras in Grass, and would have close matches vs Peak Federer and Borg in Grass (see both wimbledon 2007 and 2008...). He would beat all the rest.
Peak Rafa couple only (barely)lose to djokovic and maybe Agassi in slower HC..., although both matches would be extremely close... And only Would lose to Sampras in fast HC... His matches with Fed would be extremely even.... in carpet he can lose to many... and In Clay he would be unbeatable.. maybe peak Borg could get a couple of matches from a sample of 10..but thats it.

 

[Mr.Snrub]

No need for insults and condescension. Just hurts your cause. So please don't try to pull that any more. It simply does not work . Thanks.

Now. :roll: I explained it already several times:

Chico is the only one on this forum who truly understands tennis.

Just because you have more important titles and beat the other guy more times than he beats you doesn't mean you're better than him.

 

[cc0509]

Peak Federer and Djokovic on HC > peak Nadal on HC cc0.

Overall Federer and Djokovic are better hc players than Nadal. 9 hc slams > 5 hc slams > 3 hc slams. BUT, if Federer or Djokovic has to face Nadal in hc slams the evidence does NOT show Federer and Djokovic are superior.

Federer vs Nadal--0-3 at the AO
Djokovic vs Nadal--1-2 at the USO and 1-0 at the AO (it took Djokovic six hours to beat Nadal there.)

We are talking about two different things completely.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Peak djokovic at USO doesnt beat peak nadal at USO....

Djokovic is better indoors and in slow HC ... Rafa is better in Faster higher bouncing HC (aka north american Swing)

And Rafa met peak federer at Australian Open in 2009 and he pretty much beat him fair and square, Peak Rafa in HC Beat Federer in AO and Djokovic in USO. We dont know how he would fare against Fed in USO:... the match would be extremely close....

I think peak Rafa would only lose to Peak Sampras in Grass, and would have close matches vs Peak Federer and Borg in Grass. He would beat all the rest.
Peak Rafa would only lose (barely) to djokovic and maybe Agassi in slower HC, although both matches would be extremely close... And only Would lose to Sampras in fast HC... His matches with Fed would be extremely even.... in carpet he can lose to many... and In Clay he would be unbeatable.. maybe peak Borg could get a couple of matches from a sample of 10..but thats it.

2009 wasn't peak Federer. It was prime Federer, but he wasn't at the level of 2004-2007.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Peak djokovic at USO doesnt beat peak nadal at USO....

That's exactly what he did in 2011 boo boo.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Also, in my opinion, Federer > Sampras on grass. I think Nadal would beat Sampras like he beat Federer.

 

[cc0509]

Chico is the only one on this forum who truly understands tennis.

Just because you have more important titles and beat the other guy more times than he beats you doesn't mean you're better than him.

:lol:

Loco's backwards law of tennis. :twisted:

 

[Djokovic2011]

Overall Federer and Djokovic are better hc players than Nadal. 9 hc slams > 5 hc slams > 3 hc slams. BUT, if Federer or Djokovic has to face Nadal in hc slams the evidence does NOT show Federer and Djokovic are superior.

Federer vs Nadal--0-3 at the AO
Djokovic vs Nadal--1-2 at the USO and 1-1 at the AO.

We are talking about two different things completely.

No, I understood perfectly what you meant and I still think Federer and Djokovic's peak is above Nadal's on HC. Not by much, but still better.

Nadal's never beaten Nole at the AO either cc0.

 

[cc0509]

That's exactly what he did in 2011 boo boo.

So Djokovic was only peak for one year in 2011? Are you trying to tell us that DJokovic was not peak in 2010 and 2013? He is the only tennis player in history to have one peak year?

 

[Djokovic2011]

So Djokovic was only peak for one year in 2011? Are you trying to tell us that DJokovic was not peak in 2010 and 2013? He is the only tennis player in history to have one peak year?

No, that's not what I was trying to say at all cc0. That poster did say that "peak Djokovic doesn't beat peak Nadal" which is clearly false.

 

[cc0509]

No, I understood perfectly what you meant and I still think Federer and Djokovic's peak is above Nadal's on HC. Not by much, but still better.

Nadal's never beaten Nole at the AO either cc0.

Yes, I agree their overall peaks on hc are better than Nadal's but that goes out the window when either one of them has to meet Nadal in a hc slam.

Yes, sorry, I made a mistake about the AO. It is 1-0 for Djokovic but it took Djokovic six hours to beat Nadal there.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

No, I understood perfectly what you meant and I still think Federer and Djokovic's peak is above Nadal's on HC. Not by much, but still better.

Nadal's never beaten Nole at the AO either cc0.

No.. Ao peaks are quite similar...

NAdal in Ao 2009, Federer in AO 2007 and Djokovic in AO 2011 are all very high and quite comparable... it would go down to mental strenght where nadal would probably win anyways.. However raw tennis level is quite even..

Now at Uso ... I think Federer 2004 beats Rafa 2010... and Rafa 2010 is clearly above Nole 2011.... I think even Rafa 2013 could beat 2011... but its would be quite hard to determine.. Rafa with 2010 serve at USO djokovic would have very few chances... Of course in 2011 he played without serve and backhand... that was easy prey for Nole

 

[Djokovic2011]

Yes, I agree their overall peaks on hc are better than Nadal's but that goes out the window when either one of them has to meet Nadal in a hc slam.

Yes, sorry, I made a mistake about the AO. It is 1-0 for Djokovic but it took Djokovic six hours to beat Nadal there.

I still think their peak in the slams is also better than Nadal's but we can agree to disagree. :wink:

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

Yes, I agree their overall peaks on hc are better than Nadal's but that goes out the window when either one of them has to meet Nadal in a hc slam.

Yes, sorry, I made a mistake about the AO. It is 1-0 for Djokovic but it took Djokovic six hours to beat Nadal there.

I think we can make a point here.... Nole in Australia 2012 was nearly his absolute peak, but nadal was nowhere near his peak.. he was better than in 2011 and that is... he was more far from his 2009 level than Nole was from the 2011 one... I think Rafa 2009 beats Djokovic in 2011... although It would be close..

 

[Djokovic2011]

No.. Ao peaks are quite similar...

NAdal in Ao 2009, Federer in AO 2007 and Djokovic in AO 2011 are all very high and quite comparable... it would go down to mental strenght where nadal would probably win anyways.. However raw tennis level is quite even..

Now at Uso ... I think Federer 2004 beats Rafa 2010... and Rafa 2010 is clearly above Nole 2011.... I think even Rafa 2013 could beat 2011... but its would be quite hard to determine.. Rafa with 2010 serve at USO djokovic would have very few chances... Of course in 2011 he played without serve and backhand... that was easy prey for Nole

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

I still think their peak in the slams is also better than Nadal's but we can agree to disagree. :wink:

Well numbers dont support you... Peak Rafa in 2010 was very high... Rafa match up well with djokovic with much weaker service in 2013 and beat him... Once rafa start serving stronger like in 2010 then Its lightsout for DJokovic. Djokovic depends on his serve... when Djokovic is nowhere near his best serving he is in big trouble.. Rafa usually dont serve that well.. but when he does it... such as USo 2010, Olympics 2008 or cincinatti 2013 ... then He rarely losses to Djokovic or Federer anywhere... Sadly we never will known how the outcome would be vs Federer in 2004/2005 level...

 

[Djokovic2011]

I think we can make a point here.... Nole in Australia 2012 was nearly his absolute peak, but nadal was nowhere near his peak.. he was better than in 2011 and that is... he was more far from his 2009 level than Nole was from the 2011 one... I think Rafa 2009 beats Djokovic in 2011... although It would be close..

Haha, you're such a fanboy T_M_G!! :lol:

 

[Djokovic2011]

Well numbers dont support you... Peak Rafa in 2010 was very high... Rafa match up well with djokovic with close to zero service... Once rafa start serving stronger like in 2010 then Its lightsout for DJokovic.

I respectfully disagree T_M_G.

 

[cc0509]

I still think their peak in the slams is also better than Nadal's but we can agree to disagree. :wink:

But we are talking about two different things. Their overall hc peaks where yes of course Fed's peak was better than Nadal's. No question. Djokovic's peak on hc was better than Nadal's as well but all of that goes out the window when either Federer or Djokovic had or have to face Nadal in a hc slam. They both crap their pants against Nadal in slams too often.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

Haha, you're such a fanboy T_M_G!! :lol:

YEs such a fanboy :lol:
Im not disrespecting anyone... When It comes to AO specially I do believe the absolute peaks of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are all top 5 in history... probably only Peak Agassi could rank up there....

Now uso is more complicated... PEak Sampras was insane there... so was Peak Connors, Lendl and Mcenroe..

 

[Djokovic2011]

But we are talking about two different things. Their overall hc peaks where yes of course Fed's peak was better than Nadal's. No question. Djokovic's peak on hc was better than Nadal's as well but all of that goes out the window when either Federer or Djokovic had or have to face Nadal in a hc slam. They both crap their pants against Nadal in slams too often.

That's because Nadal takes breaks from the tour so whenever he meets those guys in HC majors he's always pumping and raring to go. Thankfully Federer and Novak have a little more respect for the ATP..

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

That's because Nadal takes breaks from the tour so whenever he meets those guys in HC majors he's always pumping and raring to go. Thankfully Federer and Novak have a little more respect for the ATP..

Well he didnt tale much a break before 2010 ..he just skipped wimbledon in 2009 but played the fade of the season...

And Its not about resting.. Slams are about mental state... Djokovic rarely gets tired.. he is like a cyborg physically wise.. so dont bring excuses about tiredness :lol: the problem is he cant deal mentally with big matches..

 

[The_Order]

Federer has a 2-9 losing h2h record in outdoor HC matches against a guy that's worse than Murray :lol:

 

[MichaelNadal]

Yes, I agree with that. I think he has improved the most on hardcourts and when he is playing well on them he is lethal. A perfect example is the AO 2014 vs Federer or the USO 2013 vs Djokovic. Forget it, no chance for either Federer or Djokovic when Nadal is playing like that on hc.

But we are talking about two different things. Their overall hc peaks where yes of course Fed's peak was better than Nadal's. No question. Djokovic's peak on hc was better than Nadal's as well but all of that goes out the window when either Federer or Djokovic had or have to face Nadal in a hc slam. They both crap their pants against Nadal in slams too often.

He can't handle it. And I say GOOD! I hope he underrates Nadal even more so he can be more devastated than ever next year.

 

[Djokovic2011]

He can't handle it. And I say GOOD! I hope he underrates Nadal even more so he can be more devastated than ever next year.

:grin: