Who Is In The Best Position To Make the Call?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by asifallasleep, Jan 12, 2018.

?

Who has a better view and is in a better position to make the call?

  1. The stationary teammate at the service line with an unobstructed view of the baseline and the ball

    4 vote(s)
    80.0%
  2. The teammate behind the baseline and behind the ball who is actively moving to hit the ball

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. asifallasleep

    asifallasleep Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    I got into a major argument and was shocked by the replies of my opponents and a nearby coach when the answer was and is still so clear to me. Am I the crazy one? lol.

    Doubles match
    Ball is hit near the baseline

    One partner is stationary at the service line and is turned facing his baseline watching to see if the ball is in. He has a clear view of the baseline. His view is not obstructed by the ball and he can see the entire baseline and sees a space between the baseline and the ball when it lands. He calls the shot out.

    His partner is behind the baseline and is actively moving to strike the ball. He sees the ball from behind it. As he cannot see through the ball, his view of the baseline is obstructed by the ball. He calls the ball in.

    Who has a better view and is in a better position to make the call?

    Note: As a test after the match I placed a ball just inches beyond the baseline and had my opponent who disagreed with me get into position to strike the ball. From his view he said the ball was in. From the service line I could clearly see the ball was out. I showed him afterwards therefore proving my point. He still wanted to argue his position. The coach on the adjacent court said I was wrong. I told him he didn't know what he was talking about and should know better as a coach. My point is that someone in front of the ball has a better view than someone behind the ball because he has an unobstructed view.
     
    #1
  2. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,979
    If they disagree on the call, it is in by the Code. Who had the better view is immaterial.
     
    user92626 likes this.
    #2
  3. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Your opponent and his coach is full of crap. When i play double, the person at the net make the call on serve.
     
    #3
  4. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,797
    That may be so but if partners make differing calls, the point goes to the opponent. You have to be unanimous in calling it out for you to win the point.

    You also might be making an error.
     
    #4
  5. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,797
    That's because the person at the net is much closer to the service line parallel to the net than the returner. The net man also has the better angle.

    The difference between your scenario and the OP's is that the net man might have the better view but the one hitting is closer.

    Still, my original point stands: the call must be unanimous.
     
    ptuanminh likes this.
    #5
  6. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Good point SV. You are right. Usually the person closer should make the call. Even when on the move to hit the ball.
     
    #6
  7. asifallasleep

    asifallasleep Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    We gave the point to our opponents. I wasn't arguing that. My issue was on principle in general as to who is in better position to make such calls.
     
    #7
  8. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,797
    In your favor:
    - you're not moving
    - you can see the out court between the ball and the line

    In your partner's favor:
    - he's closer

    Who has the better call is how these 3 things play out. I don't think there's a certain answer.
     
    #8
  9. user92626

    user92626 Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    7,532
    Without a referee, the fair and honor rule must be followed. Right or wrong, each side is entitled to the calls on their side. That's fair. If one partner disagrees, the benefit goes to the other side. That's honor.

    I only see problems occur when this rule isn't observed.
     
    #9
  10. Pete Player

    Pete Player Professional

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    1,166
    Ball partly touching the line or something, wasn’t it for it to be in. Is a ball in, if the vertical projection of the ball touches the line, if it does not compress so much, that the felt actually touches the line?

    As for the argument, if a side disagree, within, tha ball was in. So, never challenge your partners calls, if they are called out, unless he/she deliberately cheats.


    ——————————
    On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
     
    #10
  11. Pete Player

    Pete Player Professional

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    1,166
    Double post.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    #10
  12. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    6,804
    Why is the net man looking backward? The net man should not be looking backward.
     
    #11
  13. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,797
    Depends on the speed of the incoming: on a slow ball, especially a lob, I will look back. The faster it's moving, the less likely I'll look back.
     
    #12
  14. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,742
    Both moving and having the ball obstruct the view of the line make the call harder. You had the better view. Still in a game situation you have to call the ball in because of your partner's call.

    I have a very hard time with is long calls on serves for exactly the same reasons.
     
    #13
  15. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,979
    In this situation if I'm the up player, I let my partner make that call. If I'm the baseline player, I will be ticked off if my partner calls a ball that is right in front of me. I just don't see why he would do that. If he calls it out as I hit it, I guarantee the opponents will claim we disagreed so they get the point. This is just asking for trouble. Let your partner make the call on a ball at his feet.
     
    #14
  16. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,780
    Location:
    Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA
    @asifallasleep @S&V-not_dead_yet
    NOPE. This is a common misconception. The person closest to the bounce, more often than not, has the WORST perspective, especially if their head or eyes are moving.

    For a bounce that is very close to us, the ball will traverse the field of vision rapidly. In some/many cases it is moving thru a large angle in a very short time in the our visual field. This angular speed of the ball can often exceed the limitation of our smooth pursuit (visual) tracking system. That is, the eyes will often not be able to keep up when the ball is moving in close proximity. Jump-ahead saccades might be employed in an effort try to track a ball in close proximity. For the same reason (close proximity) we almost never see the ball on the strings of our racket -- a moving ball effectively becomes "invisible" when it gets very close.

    For a person who is at a greater distance from the bounce, the ball is moving thru a very small angle. It is usually much easier from them to track the ball close to the bounce location for this reason. A linesperson, who is a moderate/greater distance from the bounce location, will usually have a better view of the ball than a player close to the bounce.

    The other part of the issue is movement of the head/eyes. They are often moving for a bounce in close proximity. For a person further from the ball when it bounces, their head/eyes move very little, often not at all, to view the bounce. Take the case of the linesperson again. They are trained to keep the head and eyes very still as the ball is bouncing. Any time, they see a ball that appears to be headed close to the line, they stop tracking the ball. Instead, they get their eyes quickly to the line and wait for the ball to arrive. That way, their eyes/head are not moving at all as the ball bounces. Studies have shown that the ability to make accurate line calls is poor, or severely hampered, if the head/eyes are in motion when the bounce occurs. This is why lines people are trained to fix their gaze on the line before the ball gets there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
    #15
  17. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    What you say has its merit but there are definitely cases that it is not correct.
    If the person further from the ball, his vision line is parallel to the ball trajectory, its very hard for him to see if the ball cross the line (basic physics, unless he is VERY TALL).
    An example is when serving from Ad court a kick serve out-wide to the backhand of the returner, its very hard for the person at the net to see if the ball catch the line or not.
     
    SystemicAnomaly likes this.
    #16
  18. asifallasleep

    asifallasleep Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    You are so awesome!! What you have stated is precisely my point!!! And you've added the science!!
     
    SystemicAnomaly likes this.
    #17
  19. asifallasleep

    asifallasleep Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    You are so awesome!! What you have stated is precisely my point!!! And you've added the science!!
     
    #18
  20. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,780
    Location:
    Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA
    You are absolutely correct. There are other factors involved. Perspective, POV, viewing angle, etc

    With your serve example, I assume you are talking about the far side line of the service box and not the back service line. In this case, the server returner would likely have a better view of the bounce down the (outside) line. The is nearly the same perspective as a linesperson for that line would have. (In that situation, neither player might be significantly closer to the bounce than their partner).

    Conversely, for serve bounces close to the back service line, the returner's partner usually has a much better view (perspective) -- assuming they are conventionally positioned along that line. In this case this person MIGHT be closer to the bounce than the returner yet have the better view. However, if that "net" player is standing close to the middle T, they might have a difficulty with a medium to fast serve to that T. In this situation, they may be too close to the bounce location for them to make a definitive call on that part of the back service line. Because of their close proximity to the bounce, the ball might move across their visual field too quickly for them to perceive accurately.

    The primary point of my previous post is that the person closest to the bounce often (more than not) has an inferior view of bounce event. This notion is contrary to what many/most players believe. In fact, in some/many situations in doubles, the person closest to the bounce might have a worse view of the bounce than the other 3 players on the court.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
    ptuanminh likes this.
    #18
  21. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    563
    An observer looking along the line has the best view, and should make the call. The other one, looking down at the ball, should shut the hell up.
     
    #19
  22. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,780
    Location:
    Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA
    Simplistic but true for the most part. Take a look at the 3rd paragraph in my response (post #18). This is one possible exception to this notion. The proximity problem that I spoke of in my 1st post is also a factor and may override the "best view" argument that you mention.
     
    #20
  23. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    563
    An observer looking along the line has the best view, and should make the call. The other one, looking down at the ball, should shut the hell up.
     
    #21
  24. Wise one

    Wise one Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    563
    Looking straight down at the line gives a very poor angle.
     
    #22
  25. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,780
    Location:
    Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA
    I can't argue with that.

    Bottom line is that looking along the line does not always provide "the best view". It would certainly be nice if we can just set up simple criteria and have it work best in every situation. But that is not the world that we live in (not the court that we play on).
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
    #23

Share This Page