Who is more talented?

Who is more talented?


  • Total voters
    19

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
The great question of our time: Who is more talented out of Nick Kyrgios and Bernard Tomic – these two mercurial, lazy, controversial, self-sabotaging but ostensibly gifted gentlemen representing the big Oz?

For the purpose of the discussion, let's define 'talent' simply as natural aptitude – the thing that conjoins with work/effort to create ability/expertise.

Some pertinent stats:

Highest ranking
Kyrgios: 13
Tomic: 17

Career titles
Kyrgios: 4
Tomic: 4

Best slam result
Kyrgios: Wimbledon and AO quarters at the age of 19.
Tomic: Wimbledon quarters at the age of 18.

Number of TTW fanboys
Kyrgios: 972
Tomic: @Aussie Darcy



I know the obvious answer will probably be Kyrgios, because he's been more relevant for a few years and we've all had it endlessly rammed down our throats how he's oh-so-talented. But I would make the case that Tomic is probably the more talented of the two. He's achieved fairly similar highs in terms of peak achievement, but from what we know about them, it seems pretty clear to me that Tomic's circumstance, life and attitude have been a much bigger hinder than Kyrgios'. Kyrgios is ostensibly mostly a kid with a bad attitude who tanks and pretends to not give a hoot to protect his ego. He still seems to at least have a supporting family and some form of commitment to the game. Tomic's life on the other hand has been a documented mess, with an abusive father as a coach/mentor, periods of quitting the game altogether, and reports from his former training partners of how messy the whole thing is. In spite of this he has achieved a comparable peak ranking and slam result as Kyrgios. More talented, no?
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Not remotely, but it's a worthwhile contribution that I'm sure could be intertwined into a larger, more hard-hitting argument
What's Tomic's best win? Beating Gasquet at Wimbledon? The level Kyrgios showed to beat Nadal in 14, or the level he showed at 17 IW/Miami, or even stuff like Marseille in 2016 is several notches above that.

Tomic doesn't have any real translatable talent to the top of the game, much like Gasquet. Kyrgios has his serve.
 

ak24alive

Legend
The great question of our time: Who is more talented out of Nick Kyrgios and Bernard Tomic – these two mercurial, lazy, controversial, self-sabotaging but ostensibly gifted gentlemen representing the big Oz?

For the purpose of the discussion, let's define 'talent' simply as natural aptitude – the thing that conjoins with work/effort to create ability/expertise.

Some pertinent stats:

Highest ranking
Kyrgios: 13
Tomic: 17

Career titles
Kyrgios: 4
Tomic: 4

Best slam result
Kyrgios: Wimbledon and AO quarters at the age of 19.
Tomic: Wimbledon quarters at the age of 18.

Number of TTW fanboys
Kyrgios: 972
Tomic: @Aussie Darcy



I know the obvious answer will probably be Kyrgios, because he's been more relevant for a few years and we've all had it endlessly rammed down our throats how he's oh-so-talented. But I would make the case that Tomic is probably the more talented of the two. He's achieved fairly similar highs in terms of peak achievement, but from what we know about them, it seems pretty clear to me that Tomic's circumstance, life and attitude have been a much bigger hinder than Kyrgios'. Kyrgios is ostensibly mostly a kid with a bad attitude who tanks and pretends to not give a hoot to protect his ego. He still seems to at least have a supporting family and some form of commitment to the game. Tomic's life on the other hand has been a documented mess, with an abusive father as a coach/mentor, periods of quitting the game altogether, and reports from his former training partners of how messy the whole thing is. In spite of this he has achieved a comparable peak ranking and slam result as Kyrgios. More talented, no?
I have only one question. Is 972 a random number?
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Yeah I have to go with Kyrgios on this one. He has more talent but he has less excuses for wasted potential. Tomic had the abusive father who pulled him out of school and stole a decent life from his son who clearly lacks a formal education (anyone remember the Serena v Hingis beef reference??) amongst other things.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
What's Tomic's best win? Beating Gasquet at Wimbledon? The level Kyrgios showed to beat Nadal in 14, or the level he showed at 17 IW/Miami, or even stuff like Marseille in 2016 is several notches above that.

Tomic doesn't have any real translatable talent to the top of the game, much like Gasquet. Kyrgios has his serve.
Any old journeyman can look good against Nadal at Wimbledon in the 2010s; but could a Steve Darcis knock out beat Fabio Fognini in front of 80 000 fans in Wembley the finals of Chengdu when the stakes are really on the line? Didn't think so.
 

Red Rick

Talk Tennis Guru
The great question of our time: Who is more talented out of Nick Kyrgios and Bernard Tomic – these two mercurial, lazy, controversial, self-sabotaging but ostensibly gifted gentlemen representing the big Oz?

For the purpose of the discussion, let's define 'talent' simply as natural aptitude – the thing that conjoins with work/effort to create ability/expertise.

Some pertinent stats:

Highest ranking
Kyrgios: 13
Tomic: 17

Career titles
Kyrgios: 4
Tomic: 4

Best slam result
Kyrgios: Wimbledon and AO quarters at the age of 19.
Tomic: Wimbledon quarters at the age of 18.

Number of TTW fanboys
Kyrgios: 972
Tomic: @Aussie Darcy



I know the obvious answer will probably be Kyrgios, because he's been more relevant for a few years and we've all had it endlessly rammed down our throats how he's oh-so-talented. But I would make the case that Tomic is probably the more talented of the two. He's achieved fairly similar highs in terms of peak achievement, but from what we know about them, it seems pretty clear to me that Tomic's circumstance, life and attitude have been a much bigger hinder than Kyrgios'. Kyrgios is ostensibly mostly a kid with a bad attitude who tanks and pretends to not give a hoot to protect his ego. He still seems to at least have a supporting family and some form of commitment to the game. Tomic's life on the other hand has been a documented mess, with an abusive father as a coach/mentor, periods of quitting the game altogether, and reports from his former training partners of how messy the whole thing is. In spite of this he has achieved a comparable peak ranking and slam result as Kyrgios. More talented, no?
Ding ding ding.

This is the right answer

And by that I mean that you're asking the right questions.

But really, how do we "measure" talent.

Perceived ceiling?
Great weapons?
Lack of weaknesses?
Great technique?
Great touch?
Clean ballstriking?
Great footwork?
Great power?
Being Fabious?
Great results with moderate effort?
Smooth looking strokes?
Peak level of play?
Average level of play?
Consistency?
Versatility?
Shots that break down?
Playing great without pressure?
Playing great under pressure?


What I really wonder is when we're looking at players who seem to have the whole package and tey can't put it together, are they a wasted talent or did they just not have as much talent as we think they did. Gael Monfils comes to mind.

Or is a guy like Tsonga, who has definitely had his share of goating days vs all of the big 4, but can't bring it consistently. Is that purely mental, or is it a lack of talent that his average level isn't near the top guys and that he has to overcompensate by executing a high risk/high reward tennis scandalously well?

In any case, a point I'd like to make is that the effort/result relationship isn't gonna be the same for different players by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
What's Tomic's best win? Beating Gasquet at Wimbledon? The level Kyrgios showed to beat Nadal in 14, or the level he showed at 17 IW/Miami, or even stuff like Marseille in 2016 is several notches above that.

Tomic doesn't have any real translatable talent to the top of the game, much like Gasquet. Kyrgios has his serve.
For the record Gasquet is more talented than Tomic.
 

yokied

Professional
As a fan of both, and a long suffering Australian tennis fan, I have to say two things. Firstly we need more threads like this where the consideration and commiseration of their fitness, speed and mental strength are all thankfully irrelephant. Secondly, to answer the question: Tomic. We should put aside the personal circumstances of both which don't really have any bearing on actual talent, and just look at what happens after the umpire says play. Tomic has achieved the same amount with a LOT less effort. It's not just his style or laziness, but his tennis intelligence is on another level to Kyrgios.

You simply don't get to that level with their amount of mental instability unless you have a lot of talent and they know it. Both are two of the finest junk ballers out there, along with Fed. Junk balling tells me a lot about their mentalities because it's pure tennis arrogance. It's saying I know the game better than you, I have every shot in the book and I can play them all better than you, so let's just go down the list, play with the volume button a bit and see what you're s**t at then go from there. Hell, I might even just linger on your supposed "strengths" for a while and break them down too while I'm at it.
 
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