Who is the 2nd best clay courter of all time

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2nd greatest clay courter ever

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Well, I voted Borg, but who cares, really? It's just the one slam, and it is definitely the one about which I care the least..

I guess I should clarify this comment by saying I care the least as it is a baseliner's slam and has only been won on rare occasions by all court players.

It's a grind fest, and while I can certainly admire the skill of Rafa or Borg in this regard, I do find it boring, and it is significant that few French Open Champions succeed away from the red dirt.

Borg is the obvious exception, as is Rafa to a lesser extent. (he is not, nor has he ever been as dominant away from the clay as evidenced by his inablity to win more than a handful of HC slams and no end of year titles)
 
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Timbo's hopeless slice said:
Well, I voted Borg, but who cares, really? It's just the one slam, and it is definitely the one about which I care the least..

I guess I should clarify this comment by saying I care the least as it is a baseliner's slam and has only been won on rare occasions by all court players.

It's a grind fest, and while I can certainly admire the skill of Rafa or Borg in this regard, I do find it boring, and it is significant that few French Open Champions succeed away from the red dirt.

Borg is the obvious exception, as is Rafa to a lesser extent. (he is not, nor has he ever been as dominant away from the clay as evidenced by his inablity to win more than a handful of HC slams and no end of year titles)
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Panetta serve and volleyer beat Borg 2x at FO

yanick Noah serve and volleyer beat wilander

Rafter serve and volleyer beat Federer

McEnroe serve and volleyer should have beat Lendl ( was up two sets to zero )

.
 
is there some part of 'on rare occasions' that unduly challenges your understanding?

over a hundred years and you can name six, only two of who even went on to win the thing!

You left out all the old S&V players from back in the day when that was prettymuch the only way anyone played...
 
I like seeing the support Fed has in this poll. Remember, if he didn't have Nadal to deal with, he'd potentially have 6 FO's by now. Maybe even 7 if you consider the domino effect of Soderling beating Nadal in '09 had on the swede's confidence which carried over to 2010 when he beat Fed in the quarters. That's a bit of a stretch, true, but not that unlikely, considering how dominant he was everywhere else (including Hamburg, on clay) for so many years.

Still, I think he's somewhere around 3rd or 4th best ever. He's in the second tier of clay greats with Kuerten and Wilander, in my books (after Nadal, Borg, and Rosewall in the first tier).

But good to see him getting the respect he deserves on clay, though. I don't know why people think he's a mug on the surface.

Because it's not his best surface? Because Nadal beat him so many times on clay? He was Nadal's biggest opponent on the surface and actually beat him a few times on clay and pushed him like no one else for so many years. The only comparable achievement in modern times is Djokovic doing the same thing now, and coming to the same conclusion, basically (we'll see how that pans out, ofcourse).

Still voted Borg :p
 
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zcarzach said:
I think the only way to settle this is to call Nadal the Most Accomplished Clay Court Player of All Time (the MACCPAT). That way we aren't trying to compare the play of Borg v. Nadal, something that is obviously impossible. Nadal has won more on clay, so he is the MACCPAT. Just like Roger is the Most Accomplished Player of the Open Era (the MAPOE). No judgement as to who is subjectively better.

Using this style of logic, then Borg is clearly the 2nd MACCPAT. :)
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I think achievements and accomplishments are the only objective comparison we can make between players from different generations in a GOAT-type debate.

Styles, matchups, equipment, surfaces and strength of opponents and other variables like that are subjective. Probably not fair to the players from previous eras who had different priorities when it comes to what being the most accomplished meant, but what are ya gonna do?

I think amount of titles is the simplest measuring stick in any sport. Especially major titles.
 
Blinkism said:
I think achievements and accomplishments are the only objective comparison we can make between players from different generations in a GOAT-type debate.

Styles, matchups, equipment, surfaces and strength of opponents and other variables like that are subjective. Probably not fair to the players from previous eras who had different priorities when it comes to what being the most accomplished meant, but what are ya gonna do?

I think amount of titles is the simplest measuring stick in any sport. Especially major titles.
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As you might have guessed by my post, I'm with you 100%
 
Borg and Rosewell.

But Federer is damn unlucky to have Nadal.

Wimbledon now, since 2001-2003 transformation, has pretty high and uncertain bounces.
And not-so-secure footing.

That is exact nature of clay courts.
 
Vilas is overrated. He isnt even the caliber of clay courter Federer is. He wasnt just stopped by Borg. Borg only beat him twice at Roland Garros. He was stopped by numerous players, including a 17 year old Wilander in his last final there. The only year he won was practically a boycotted slam.
 
NadalAgassi said:
Vilas is overrated. He isnt even the caliber of clay courter Federer is. He wasnt just stopped by Borg. Borg only beat him twice at Roland Garros. He was stopped by numerous players, including a 17 year old Wilander in his last final there. The only year he won was practically a boycotted slam.
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Borg or wilander what's the difference ...lol.

Same player in almost every way.
 
Vilas won 46 clay-court titles, an all-time record. As for the 1977 French Open, the draw contained the defending champion, Panatta, as well as 1973 champion, Nastase, and other big threats like Dibbs, Gottfried, Ramirez and Solomon.

A boycotted slam? LOL. Those who didn't play were playing World Team Tennis that year and weren't eligible, apart from Connors, who stayed away regardless, as a result of the bitter dispute of 1974.
 
Gottfried and Solomon big threats, LOL! Maybe on the same planet Tomas Enqvist is on the list of best clay courters to not win RG.

It is well known by all that Vilas scalped the weakest clay court tournaments and went out of his way to avoid the other big names, especialy Borg who he was literally petrified of. Muster did the same to a large extent but he atleast had 2 years he completely dominated the clay court scene, and was the heavy favorite in the Masters or French Open, as well as other events. Vilas never was or did.
 
NadalAgassi said:
Gottfried and Solomon big threats, LOL! Maybe on the same planet Tomas Enqvist is on the list of best clay courters to not win RG.
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Firstly, Gottfried and Ramirez were threats. Secondly, I said Thomas Enqvist was on a list of some of the best players never to win the French Open, not best clay-court players. Enqvist won 3 masters series titles (1996 Paris Indoor, 1999 Stuttgart Indoor, 2000 Cincinnati), and reached the 1999 Australian Open final.
 
NadalAgassi said:
It is well known by all that Vilas scalped the weakest clay court tournaments and went out of his way to avoid the other big names, especialy Borg who he was literally petrified of.
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You in fantasy land again?

NadalAgassi said:
Muster did the same to a large extent but he atleast had 2 years he completely dominated the clay court scene, and was the heavy favorite in the Masters or French Open, as well as other events. Vilas never was or did.
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Vilas was the best player in the world in 1977. He won 16 tournaments, including the French Open and US Open, and won 72 of his last 73 matches of the year. Borg didn't have this sheer activity in 1977.
 
NadalAgassi said:
Gottfried and Solomon big threats, LOL! Maybe on the same planet Tomas Enqvist is on the list of best clay courters to not win RG.

It is well known by all that Vilas scalped the weakest clay court tournaments and went out of his way to avoid the other big names, especialy Borg who he was literally petrified of. Muster did the same to a large extent but he atleast had 2 years he completely dominated the clay court scene, and was the heavy favorite in the Masters or French Open, as well as other events. Vilas never was or did.
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Gottfried won a lot of tournaments, was finalist in FO, SF in Wimbledon, and n° 4 ATP when he played FO final against Vilas. He was a great player, even if he didn't win a Grand Slam.
Vilas won "only" 1 FO, but won also the USO on clay court + 45 tournaments on clay (this is the record). And he was the n°1 in 1977.
 
Mustard said:
Vilas was the best player in the world in 1977. He won 16 tournaments, including the French Open and US Open, and won 72 of his last 73 matches of the year. Borg didn't have this sheer activity in 1977.
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While also having a 0-2 h2h against Borg on clay that year (winning 1 set) and not beating him in any match they played.

We're not discussing his achievements in 1977 which were great but the quality of opponents he faced.
 
tennis_pro said:
While also having a 0-2 h2h against Borg on clay that year (winning 1 set) and not beating him in any match they played.

We're not discussing his achievements in 1977 which were great but the quality of opponents he faced.
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In 1977, Borg results are very poor compared to Vilas results. Even he beats Vilas, he was the n° 2 this year.
 
I think poll thread needs modifications-Novak should replace Federer and if it s all time there should be Anthony Wilding,Nicola Pietrangelli,Bill Tilden,Manuel Santana
 
ImmorTAL Big 3 said:
I think poll thread needs modifications-Novak should replace Federer and if it s all time there should be Anthony Wilding,Nicola Pietrangelli,Bill Tilden,Manuel Santana
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Thank goodness you resurrected this 10 year old thread for that modification :laughing:
 
Borg by a country mile. Nobody comes even close. Despite the huge gulf in achievements, Borg comes closer to Nadal than anyone else to Borg.

Federer with so many votes is pretty :-D . He is a great clay courter who was unlucky to be a contemporary of Nadal, but no way is he top 5 all time, let alone close to #2. Djokovic and Federer while both unlucky to be contemporaries of Nadal on clay, are also both lucky to play in an era with virtually no depth on clay. Nadal for that matter is lucky for that, hence why he will end up with 14-15 RG titles or something ridiculous even for the clay GOAT.
 
Is there any argument for peak Borg >= peak Nadal on clay? Or at least the idea that peak Borg was just as good in his prime?

Obviously Nadal overall Clay GOAT but has anyone made that case? I have only what YouTube has to offer of Borg which is very little.

but I can tell he was an absolutely special athlete, huge and fast, probably a better natural athlete than even Djokovic.
 
Kralingen said:
Is there any argument for peak Borg >= peak Nadal on clay? Or at least the idea that peak Borg was just as good in his prime?

Obviously Nadal overall Clay GOAT but has anyone made that case?
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Yes that argument could absolutely be made. Nadal would still be the clay GOAT overall as his longevity and achievements at this point on clay so far dwarf Borg, that even if you considered Borg to have a higher peak level it wouldn't matter. You could make that argument for Borg for sure though.

Looking at how Borg held a great clay courter like Vilas to barely winning games in Borg's absolute prime years (when Vilas was also in his prime). Vilas who is atleast at a similar level to someone like Federer on clay. That tells you a lot, when Nadal is a bad match up for Federer, and still had to go 4 sets most of the time with prime Federer in a best of 5 on clay. Borg is an absolute nightmare match up for Vilas mind you.
 
Kralingen said:
Is there any argument for peak Borg >= peak Nadal on clay? Or at least the idea that peak Borg was just as good in his prime?

Obviously Nadal overall Clay GOAT but has anyone made that case? I have only what YouTube has to offer of Borg which is very little.

but I can tell he was an absolutely special athlete, huge and fast, probably a better natural athlete than even Djokovic.
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prime/peak Borg ~ prime/peak Nadal

Borg dropped so few games in RG 78 and RG 80 (two of the lowest).
26-1 on clay in 1977 (one loss in retirement at USO on green clay)
25-0 on clay in 1978
28-1 on clay in 1979 (one loss in retirement at Hamburg)
24-1 on clay in 1980 (one loss to Vilas at Nations Cup)
17-1 on clay in 1981 (one loss to Pecci at Monte Carlo)

that's a combined record of 120-4 over 5 years on clay (including 4 RGs in a row)
 
abmk said:
prime/peak Borg ~ prime/peak Nadal

Borg dropped so few games in RG 78 and RG 80 (two of the lowest).
26-1 on clay in 1977 (one loss in retirement at USO on green clay)
25-0 on clay in 1978
28-1 on clay in 1979 (one loss in retirement at Hamburg)
24-1 on clay in 1980 (one loss to Vilas at Nations Cup)
17-1 on clay in 1981 (one loss to Pecci at Monte Carlo)

that's a combined record of 120-4 over 5 years on clay (including 4 RGs in a row)
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I honestly think prime/peak Borg is marginally better, although I know that is a controversial thing to say probably. Nadal still is ahead overall due to an infinitely longer career on top (would have been longer even if Borg had not retired early too) and being so far ahead in achievements on clay. I also compare how much easier of a time Borg had with Vilas than Nadal with Federer, when Vilas and Federer are probably in the same sort of tier on clay, like I doubt one is that much better than the other either way. And Nadal/Borg are both bad match ups for both, even if Borg is probably an even worse match up for Vilas than Nadal for Federer. Vilas was barely winning games at times against Borg on clay, that is freaking incredible for a clay courter of Vilas's calibre.

And I think Borg of RG 78 would beat anyone, probably even Nadal of RG 2008, although it would probably be a 5 setter either way.
 
martinezownsclay said:
I honestly think prime/peak Borg is marginally better, although I know that is a controversial thing to say probably. Nadal still is ahead overall due to an infinitely longer career on top (would have been longer even if Borg had not retired early too) and being so far ahead in achievements on clay. I also compare how much easier of a time Borg had with Vilas than Nadal with Federer, when Vilas and Federer are probably in the same sort of tier on clay, like I doubt one is that much better than the other either way. And Nadal/Borg are both bad match ups for both, even if Borg is probably an even worse match up for Vilas than Nadal for Federer. Vilas was barely winning games at times against Borg on clay, that is freaking incredible for a clay courter of Vilas's calibre.

And I think Borg of RG 78 would beat anyone, probably even Nadal of RG 2008, although it would probably be a 5 setter either way.
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Vilas almost never hit a drive backhand and weirdly didn’t run around his BH often in the matches I have seen. The 78 final he has basically nothing for Borg whatsoever. I’ve seen the results but it felt like from a level of play perspective, Borg did everything better and Vilas just couldn’t hang. Ground to dust. It felt like the matchup wasn’t really fair.

I suppose this is why comparing eras is difficult though as the clay tennis played in the 2000s is so much quicker and Federer/Djoko are obviously able to play far more dynamic tennis.

but yeah Borg looked monstrous in the matches I’ve seen. 78 final is insanity.
 
Nd yes, Nadal would mop the floor with Borg on clay, nobody can touch Nadal on clay, just way too strong.

2008 French Open Nadal is the absolute ceiling of Tennis, the Gold Standard, the rating parameter
 
Shaolin said:
You should start a new poll with Djokovic included.
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I tried but sadly they give maximum of only 10 possible answers,so i cannot include any of pre Open era clay greats-that way it's pointless to make a poll for one player. That s why i think thread name should be only for OE because there are at least 6-7 great claycourters before OE.
 
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NadalAgassi said:
My all time rankings on clay would be:

1. Nadal
2. Rosewall
3. Borg
4. Lendl
5. Cochet
6. LaCoste
7. Wilander
8. Kuerten
9. Laver
10. Federer

I expect Djokovic will make the top 10 somewhere from #5 to #10 by the time his career is over, bumping Federer out.
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Well,that was a good prediction :). I agree with everything apart from i ll put Borg ahead of Rosewall
 
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