I would rate Novak over Kuerten, considering he had to play Roger, and especially, Rafa to win clay court tournaments. I think Borg and Rosewall are close. Besides winning the French at 18, 4 others on the pro tour at RG and over Laver at 33 in the OE. He also reached the final at 34, losing to Laver in 69. Had the French Pro not moved from RG in 63, chances are, Ken would have won another 2-4 there. Ken won 4 other French Pro titles, over Laver indoors, in 63,64,65 and 66.
NAS
Hall of Fame
I also think Rosewall is better than borg on clay, peak wise Borg was better may be little bit better than Rafa too but careerwise I can see Rosewall above Borg
muddlehead
Professional
Rafa 1. Borg 2. Who' is 3 is where the discussion begins.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Both have 3 RG titles but Lendl blows Kuerten away in everything else. Consistently excellent results at RG, many more Masters, miles better W-L even with much longer career, and consistency. Kuerten has the big what if with his hip problems, and could well have 5 or 6 RG titles and be clear #3 otherwise, but as is he has no case to be over Lendl at all.
Humbullo96
New User
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
See the fedfans giving him a nod when literally Borg exists.
Rosewall won the French Pro at RG 4 times, beating: Gonzalez, Hoad, Gimeno, among others. All the matches at the French Pro were best of 5. He then went on to win Wembley, on fast indoor wood a few times, within a week or 2.
That would be extreme, however, it seems to me that Djokovic did better vs Nadal on clay than Roger did and has more big clay titles than Roger.
DISHONEST.
Many Federer fans including myself vote for Borg
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Almost impossible to have someone match borg dominance (and Nadal too who is new borg).
Borg is so far above the rest of the clay greats.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Wilander does not understand that peak prime like concepts are just hypotheticals. And they can get exaggerated based on context..
Instead we can easily use statistics which are fair. Nadal had some 8 or so years with 65+% games won on clay .
insideoutforehanders
Professional
As much as I love Federer, the large number of Federer votes in this poll is kind of embarassing. Granted had Djokovic been included, I imagine his fan base of crazies would have managed him even more votes, which would be absurd as well. Borg is the answer to this by a country mile, and in the Open Era Lendl is an easy 3rd. All time Rosewall and Cochet are easily above both Djokovic or Federer as well.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I don't understand the claim for nole as well. I don't give much weight to "if x player was absent" claims.
The excuse makers can say anything but only real wins count.
insideoutforehanders
Professional
Yes I concur. And the only way I would even consider giving those arguments credence if people used them for everyone. But I have never seen a person use the "if X was not there" arguments for everyone, only for their personal favorites, while ignoring them for everyone else. This applying to both women and men. So the "if X was not there" arguments are utterly useless. They can only be used with some legitimacy as a tiebreaker of sorts for players with almost identical records, but not to elevate say Djokovic or Federer above someone like Borg on clay, someone like Roddick on par with Becker (with the phantom "if Federer weren't there how many slams would he have won" arguments), LOL! Like for another example you will never hear, or atleast I have never heard, someone argue Evert is arguably the 2nd best ever on grass, since she might have 7 or 8 Wimbledons without Navratilova (which is in fact true), since her fans are not impassioned or irrational enough to attempt this skewed rational, which puts in perspective how ridiculous that kind of argument would be for literally anyone.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Vilas
4. Federer
5. Lendl
Surely this is undisputed?
2. Borg
3. Vilas
4. Federer
5. Lendl
Surely this is undisputed?
Pheasant
Legend
Who’s the 2nd best clay court player ever? Let’s look at Benoit Paire vs Borg since 1982 at RG.
Total match wins at RG since 1982:
Benoit Paire: 12
Borg 0
So far, Paire has destroyed Borg. My answer is Benoit Paire, which makes about as much sense as putting Borg outside the top 2.
Total match wins at RG since 1982:
Benoit Paire: 12
Borg 0
So far, Paire has destroyed Borg. My answer is Benoit Paire, which makes about as much sense as putting Borg outside the top 2.
Lendl clearly above Vilas. Lendl 3 Clay majors. 8 Super Series clay tournament wins. Vilas 2 Clay Majors. And less than 8 Super Series on Clay I believe.
Not sure where Federer sits.
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Hitman
Bionic Poster
I'd put Ferrer third.
pierceforehands
Professional
Borg is another planet from the others, particularly in the Open Era, but Rosewall is very underrated. His clay record is astronomical, he is probably atleast the 3rd best clay courter (after Nadal and Borg) of post World War 11 days.
It is funny to see Federer and Djokovic getting any support at all on this topic, pure delusion at its finest.
It is funny to see Federer and Djokovic getting any support at all on this topic, pure delusion at its finest.
DSH
Bionic Poster
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Did Lendl and Vilas ever play against each other on clay?
Lendl ahead of Vilas 7-5 on clay
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Racquet_smash
Hall of Fame
It's Borg and it isn't even close.
Rosewall, if you want to include pre open era giants as well, comes in 3rd place, otherwise it's Lendl.
Rosewall, if you want to include pre open era giants as well, comes in 3rd place, otherwise it's Lendl.
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Legend
Yes, he's way ahead of Lendl, Wilander, Vilas. Way! Totally had Federer's number on clay too – and everywhere else.
Rosewall is underrated with many Pro Roland Garros plus some amateur and open era Roland Garros' also.
I do find it interesting that even though Laver doesn't have Rosewall's record on clay - he has the superior H2H over Rosewall on clay (known matches 13-11 on clay)
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BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
Very funny thread. Putting Federer at 2 is already incredibly absurd but I can imagine the ones who voted for him were just clueless fanboys. This one here however from a knowledgeable poster is also very much ridiculous:
To the question: it is of course Borg, this is even superfluous to mention. As @martinezownsclay and @abmk have correctly pointed out. Peak vs peak you can even argue that Borg is on par or even better than Nadal. Actually I would have him even slightly better at least at RG.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
The technology of Borg's era and Nadal's era is too different to argue it one way or the other, really. It's like comparing Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna in Formula 1.
Both Borg and Nadal won a 6th French Open title just days after their 25th birthday. Nadal carried on and won another 8 French Opens in the next 11 years.
The video I have seen of the Pepsi Grand Slam in early 1979 (Clay court tournament) - shows Borg at a tremendous peak
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
Yes. Nadal is definitely greater due to longevity, but the most dominant FO run in terms of fewest games lost still belongs to Borg. Also, the 77 edition would very likely be his, so under normal circumstances he would have 7 at age 25. I admit though that even if he had played longer I can’t see him winning more than ten (will not win 85 and beyond), so Nadal’s clay GOAT status will still remain. Peak-wise though they are both head and shoulders above the rest and you can very reasonably argue Borg being even a tad better. As @martinezownsclay said: His dominance of Vilas as the second best of his era was even bigger than Nadal’s dominance of Fed and Djoko.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Have you watched the 1978 French Open final? Borg beat Vilas 6-1, 6-1, 6-3, so a one-sided scoreline, yet the rallies felt very competitive, including the famous 86 stroke rally. Borg's toughest match, scoreline wise, at the 1978 French Open, was when Roscoe Tanner, playing a very different style, attacked the net a lot. When Vilas finally beat Borg again, at the 1980 Nations Cup in Dusseldorf, he too employed much net play instead of just duelling it out with Borg from the baseline as he had usually done for years.
Borg vs. Pecci in the 1979 French Open final is also a very underrated match, as is Pecci's semi final win over Connors. A lot of people don't like clay-court tennis though, which is a shame.
Basically Borg was a ring-in for Roland Garros in 1977 and 1982 (He was continually dominating Wilander in practice that year) - so he would have had 8.
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
People would have thought that about Nadal had he missed the 2009 French Open. That's why they play the matches.
GuyForget
Professional
Djokovic
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
Definitely I have him as huge favorite in both. Had he continued I can also see him winning 83 and (a little less likely) 84. Don’t think he wins 85 or beyond so max 10 FO would be possible imho.
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
All true but not sure what this has to do with what I wrote. The rallies felt competitive because when two grinders face each other and try to tear each other down in baseline battles it naturally “looks” more competitive than a full all-out attacking player blowing his opponent from the court. That doesn’t mean that it was any closer or Borg was in any more danger to lose than the score line suggests. Going down to analysing how close the rallies “looked like” goes a little too far imho. The score line is what it is and Borg completely dominated.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
His dominance of Vilas is much more than Nadal of Djokovic and Federer. Nadal actualy has quite a bit of trouble with Djokovic on clay, even in his prime, although he never truly lost to Djokovic at RG in his prime, he lost in many other clay events to him in what could be considered prime years, and very nearly did at RG in 2013. Federer he is much more dominant over than Djokovic, but even him not even close to Borg when playing Vilas. Federer took Nadal to 4 sets in almost all their RG meetings, which is nothing like the norm of Vilas playing Borg. Now you could argue Federer and Djokovic are both superior to Vilas even on clay, Djokovic record wise atleast clearly is, but even so Vilas is talked about as an Open Era great (top 10 for most) on clay.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Vilas had a similar style to Borg, although left-handed and one-handed backhand, but was generally slightly inferior in every aspect, so if they just slug it out from the baseline then Borg is going to win unless Vilas perhaps is in such good form that he is doing those things better than Borg. When Vilas did beat Borg, it was usually because he mixed things up tactically and didn't just slug it out from the baseline with Borg.
Nadal's dynamic with Federer and Djokovic is very different to that of Vilas and Borg.
Nadal's dynamic with Federer and Djokovic is very different to that of Vilas and Borg.
Racquet_smash
Hall of Fame
Not to diminish Borg's dominance of Vilas, but Vilas was very much a flat track bully who had a losing record against just about every top player of the time, particularly the 1-7 vs Wilander.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
In the second half of 1977, Vilas was really riding high. He won 46 matches in a row, and something like 74 wins in 75 matches. The high point was Vilas winning the 1977 US Open final against Connors 2-6, 6-3, 7-6, 6-0, just one year after Connors had beaten Vilas 6-4, 6-2, 6-1 in their 1976 US Open semi final on the same court. Vilas beat Connors again in the January 1978 Masters, though lost to Borg, while Connors beat Borg in the final.
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