Who is the Australian Open GOAT

T

timnz

Legend
Unfortunately I am treading into dangerous water - but I think this discussion raises interesting questions about what one values as an achievement outside of a Slam win.

So, who is the AO GOAT?

Djokovic - 6 Titles, 0 Runner-ups
Federer - 5 Titles, 1 Runner-up

So its Djokovic right? Not so fast.

Djokovic one title ahead in AO Slam wins - what about lower level down achievements?

Djokovic's next best achievements outside of his 6 AO wins: 3 quarter finals, 1 4th round, 1 2nd round and two first round losses

Federer's next best achievements outside of the 5 AO wins: 1 runner-up, 7 semi-finals, 2 4th rounds, 3 3rd rounds.

So in summary: Federer has made the last 4 at the AO: 13 times, Djokovic has made the last 4 at the AO: 6 times.

So the question is this. Is 1 slam worth more or less that 1 runner-up and 7 semi-finals? Particularly given Federer's runner-up (2009) was only lost in the 5th set?

All opinions, as long as politely put are welcome.
 
In open era, Djokovic. For those making room for Fed above Nole, I would then put Agassi above Fed the laters consistency notwithstanding :D
 
Clearly Federer at this point with his many extra semis. Djokovic is much younger, however, so he will most likely surpass Federer by the end of his career.
 
Thorondor said:
Clearly Federer at this point with his many extra semis. Djokovic is much younger, however, so he will most likely surpass Federer by the end of his career.
Click to expand...
I think you agree though that we should never give a player credit for which we suppose they will achieve, we should only give them credit when they actually achieve it
 
Simple formula - # titles first, if tied than # of runner-ups becomes tie-breaker.

If that's tied, semi-finals

(That's just for "greatness" on an achievement scale - I have no problem talking/debating about whose playing level was higher)

At Aus Open, its -

1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Agassi
4) Wilander
5) Edberg
6) Lendl
...
(I'd have to look up the rest).

@timnz - I think we look at these things somewhat similarly - not necessarily considering winning titles as the be all and end all of everything. I recall discussing Borg at the US Open with you - and the views your expressing on the ongoing discussion about performances in finals

Interesting question I'll throw in.

Where does everyone think Andy Murray ranks as an Aus Open great?

0 titles, 5 runner ups, 1 semi (I think)
Below or above, say Brian Teacher or Mark Edmonson (1 title each)
 
Waspsting said:
Simple formula - # titles first, if tied than # of runner-ups becomes tie-breaker.

If that's tied, semi-finals

(That's just for "greatness" on an achievement scale - I have no problem talking/debating about whose playing level was higher)

At Aus Open, its -

1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Agassi
4) Wilander
5) Edberg
6) Lendl
...
(I'd have to look up the rest).

@timnz - I think we look at these things somewhat similarly - not necessarily considering winning titles as the be all and end all of everything. I recall discussing Borg at the US Open with you - and the views your expressing on the ongoing discussion about performances in finals

Interesting question I'll throw in.

Where does everyone think Andy Murray ranks as an Aus Open great?

0 titles, 5 runner ups, 1 semi (I think)
Below or above, say Brian Teacher or Mark Edmonson (1 title each)
Click to expand...
Obviously I don't agree with your first point. That last question is really interesting. I would rate Murray's achievement way above those other guys. However if you believe in the tie break formulation above then you rate Teacher or Edmondson above Murray as an AO competitor, correct?
 
Noelan said:
Intesesting Djokovic was bashed for his USO records relentlessly, didn't see that some of you fanatcis gave him credit for 11 straights SF . Since he reached first GS Final at USO 2007 he never lost before semi
Click to expand...
That is a fine achievement. So his record at the US in terms of deep runs is actually better than the AO
 
Djokovic clearly, if Federer got an extra title I might still lean towards Djokovic due to his dominance and mastery of his rivals.
 
timnz said:
Obviously I don't agree with your first point. That last question is really interesting. I would rate Murray's achievement way above those other guys. However if you believe in the tie break formulation above then you rate Teacher or Edmondson above Murray as an AO competitor, correct?
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't rate Teacher/Edmondson above Murray as an AO competitor, because they won when there were very weak fields (as was the case for a lot of champions in the late 70s/early 80s at the AO).

However, I would rate recent one-time champions like Nadal, Safin and yes, even Johansson above Murray at the AO. Winning is more important than constantly finishing runner-up, as I'm sure Andy Murray himself would tell you.
 
Djokovic. His performance at the AO has been dominant, albeit a bit inconsistent before the second week. What matters is that Djokovic still has time to extend that with more AO semis, finals, and (hopefully) wins.
 
SLD76 said:
Federer


He has won the AO on 3 different hc surfaces
Click to expand...
Just 2 actually. Rebound Ace and Plexicusion. Unless you count this year's surface differently because it was faster. Which I still disagree with as it's still the same surface, but with different speed.

Fed remains the last player to win both the AO and USO on 2 different surfaces.
 
What about Stanimal?

Mury goat is unfortunate but not as unfortunate as Ralph through injury and bad luck. Otherwise hes the AO and moral goat.


...I think Djokovic not only has more slams but arguably has reached a higher playing level than anyone before or since. He is the AO Goat.
 
Djokovic.

Federer needed that extra title in either 05 or 09 to seal the deal then he'd be GOAT at 3 of the slams rather than just 2.

Having said that, Nole is lucky after he cheated Wawrinka out of their 2013 match. He should be on 5.
 
Small edge to Djoker imo, although Fred has ckearly had the much more rounded career there.

Another title would indisputably vault Fred to the front of the line.
 
timnz said:
Unfortunately I am treading into dangerous water - but I think this discussion raises interesting questions about what one values as an achievement outside of a Slam win.

So, who is the AO GOAT?

Djokovic - 6 Titles, 0 Runner-ups
Federer - 5 Titles, 1 Runner-up

So its Djokovic right? Not so fast.

Djokovic one title ahead in AO Slam wins - what about lower level down achievements?

Djokovic's next best achievements outside of his 6 AO wins: 3 quarter finals, 1 4th round, 1 2nd round and two first round losses

Federer's next best achievements outside of the 5 AO wins: 1 runner-up, 7 semi-finals, 2 4th rounds, 3 3rd rounds.

So in summary: Federer has made the last 4 at the AO: 13 times, Djokovic has made the last 4 at the AO: 6 times.

So the question is this. Is 1 slam worth more or less that 1 runner-up and 7 semi-finals? Particularly given Federer's runner-up (2009) was only lost in the 5th set?

All opinions, as long as politely put are welcome.
Click to expand...

Federer has 5 years more of putting up numbers. It's Djokovic
 
JMR said:
Sampras is actually tied with Lendl for most U.S. Open finals, but all eight of Lendl's were consecutive. Sampras does have the most U.S. Open finals among players with at least five USO titles.

All-time, Tilden had 10 U.S. (not Open) finals, including seven titles.
Click to expand...

Yes sorry, I meant most finals among those with five titles.
 
Tied. Making SF 6 times and W 1 time post prime mathces winning one additional time mid prime imo. If Djokovic demonstrates that he can make even a couple of SFs there post prime then he will be in front
 
Clearly Djokovic. Slam wins matter, above all else. Djokovic has also I feel, been more consistently dominant at the AO. Of course, Fed's been very consistent himself. We'll never quite know how the best of Djokovic at the AO would face off against '07 or '04 Federer ('04 especially was stunning). But, on this board we nearly always resolve hypotheticals via slam count. It would be very hypocritical not to do the same here.
 
Phoenix1983 said:
There are arguments for all three men as USO GOAT.

- Fed with 5 in a row
- Sampras with titles over 12 years, and the most finals (8)
- Connors with wins on three different surfaces, and remarkable longevity at reaching the latter stages
Click to expand...
Time for you to change your signature I think:p
 
KINGROGER said:
Djokovic.

Federer needed that extra title in either 05 or 09 to seal the deal then he'd be GOAT at 3 of the slams rather than just 2.

Having said that, Nole is lucky after he cheated Wawrinka out of their 2013 match. He should be on 5.
Click to expand...
Idk, that loss was great for Wawrinka. I'm not sure if he would have been able to deny Djokovic slams the next 3 years had he won that match.
 
Phoenix1983 said:
There are arguments for all three men as USO GOAT.

- Fed with 5 in a row
- Sampras with titles over 12 years, and the most finals (8)
- Connors with wins on three different surfaces, and remarkable longevity at reaching the latter stages
Click to expand...

I would give this to Connors. 5 titles, 2 finals, 7 SF, 3 QF, that's a lot, especially considering he competed with Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, Vilas (on clay), that make for heavier competition than what Pete and Fed faced.
 
with just numbers, it's still Djokovic and his h2h over Fed at the AO gives him the benefit of the doubt as well. However there is an argument for Fed which is based on line calls making a very real difference against Federer in 2005 and in favor of Djokovic in 2013. Also that Federer has faced more elite competition at the AO than Djokovic has. Reverse their positions and there's a real chance their AO totals are very different.
 
Flash O'Groove said:
I would give this to Connors. 5 titles, 2 finals, 7 SF, 3 QF, that's a lot, especially considering he competed with Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, Vilas (on clay), that make for heavier competition than what Pete and Fed faced.
Click to expand...
he and Vilas were 1-1 at the USO, he was 1-3 against Mac with the only win being when Mac was a teenager, a very impressive teenager, but still pre-prime and not quite up to the challenge. pre-85 Lendl is hardly some kind of stiff competition, he was a mental midget in slam finals. Definitely no tougher than the Djokovic Federer beat in 07-08. His 1976 win over Borg was great but Borg was struggling with injuries and blisters in 1978. So the only truly elite competition he faced was Mac, but he was 1-3 against him with the record being 0-2 in prime for prime meetings so that's not some kind of advantage to him. The rest of the guys were hardly tougher than the competition Fed and Pete faced.

Argument for Connors is longevity, Pete and Fed have higher USO peaks imo.
 
timnz said:
Unfortunately I am treading into dangerous water - but I think this discussion raises interesting questions about what one values as an achievement outside of a Slam win.

So, who is the AO GOAT?

Djokovic - 6 Titles, 0 Runner-ups
Federer - 5 Titles, 1 Runner-up

So its Djokovic right? Not so fast.

Djokovic one title ahead in AO Slam wins - what about lower level down achievements?

Djokovic's next best achievements outside of his 6 AO wins: 3 quarter finals, 1 4th round, 1 2nd round and two first round losses

Federer's next best achievements outside of the 5 AO wins: 1 runner-up, 7 semi-finals, 2 4th rounds, 3 3rd rounds.

So in summary: Federer has made the last 4 at the AO: 13 times, Djokovic has made the last 4 at the AO: 6 times.

So the question is this. Is 1 slam worth more or less that 1 runner-up and 7 semi-finals? Particularly given Federer's runner-up (2009) was only lost in the 5th set?

All opinions, as long as politely put are welcome.
Click to expand...

As always, it depends on your criteria. In my view, Agassi's 95' win over Sampras was one of the highest levels of tennis ever.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
Open era leaders in the top 14 events
2
Replies
68
Views
6K
Dead Mosquito
Dead Mosquito
Fiji
Similarities between Lendl and Murray
Replies
3
Views
823
struggle
S
H
Active players ranked by Slam
Replies
0
Views
368
helterskelter
H
Chicharito
The 3 phases of del Potro's career?
Replies
9
Views
1K
Chanwan
Chanwan
T
Best male player per surface/conditions - 70s, 9080s, 90s, 00s, 10s
Replies
9
Views
1K
nolefam_2024
N
Back
Top