Who is the better grass court player, Roddick or Djokovic?
Or maybe you're just overrating a guy with 6-6 slam record :-?
Chico
Banned
Sure a guy with 1-4 "slam record" is certainly better, while a guy with 6-6 is lucky and overrated. Unbelievable. :roll:
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Good topic question.
This one is a close call. Both are are great grass court players but obviously have not attained the same grass accomplishments of the best, Federer (and Sampras). While Novak has won the big one, Andy has been in more Wimbledon finals -- 3 compared to 2. Andy's 3 finals were lost to the best grass player of the modern era, RF (who won an unprecedented 7 of 8 Wimby finals). Andy has won 5 grass titles to Novak's 1 (the big one). Also, since Andy had won 80% of his grass matches compared to 78% for Novak, I'd have to give the edge to Andy.
PS: No hate for ND here.
This one is a close call. Both are are great grass court players but obviously have not attained the same grass accomplishments of the best, Federer (and Sampras). While Novak has won the big one, Andy has been in more Wimbledon finals -- 3 compared to 2. Andy's 3 finals were lost to the best grass player of the modern era, RF (who won an unprecedented 7 of 8 Wimby finals). Andy has won 5 grass titles to Novak's 1 (the big one). Also, since Andy had won 80% of his grass matches compared to 78% for Novak, I'd have to give the edge to Andy.
PS: No hate for ND here.
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Roddick has also beaten Hewitt, Murray and Berdych at Wimbledon. The best of the rest at Wimbledon outside Nadal, who he never faced (probably the one worthy Wimbledon final we never saw).
Cup8489
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic got lucky. That's what it was.
Tenez101
Banned
Hope you're kidding. Nole was all over Nadal in that final.
90's Clay
Banned
But its the most important one. Slams are what its all about. I think anyone would trade a bunch of Queens/Halle titles for a wimbledon
RF20Lennon
Legend
I'm sure Roddick wouldve beaten Djokovic if they had met on a grass court. But for me its all about titles! Djokovic won wimby! so he is the better grasscourter.
Federer20042006
Banned
Djokovic has accomplished more because he won the title, obviously. That's what ultimately matters most.
However, Roddick in form was clearly the better grass court player, which is why I voted him.
However, Roddick in form was clearly the better grass court player, which is why I voted him.
One thing for sure, Roddick had to face the grass goat whereas Nole is lucky that he's 6 years younger than Federer.
You guys that are obsessed with numbers, wow. There is so much more to it then that.
It's ok, I understand some of you don't get the nature of sports, there is always an X factor. This board is so brutal sometimes it feels like a few of us bang our heads against the wall sometimes to try and explain things.
It isn't really close. Roddick is clearly the better grass court player.
Next thing you guys are going to say is that if Raonic wins three Wimbledons he is better than Nadal on grass.
WAKE UP PEOPLE OH MY GOD, HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE.
It's ok, I understand some of you don't get the nature of sports, there is always an X factor. This board is so brutal sometimes it feels like a few of us bang our heads against the wall sometimes to try and explain things.
It isn't really close. Roddick is clearly the better grass court player.
Next thing you guys are going to say is that if Raonic wins three Wimbledons he is better than Nadal on grass.
WAKE UP PEOPLE OH MY GOD, HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Maybe but, in the end, the numbers are important and can't be ignored.
Roddick. This was a tough one since Djokovic does have the Wimbledon title and usually I cede to that. However the tennis Roddick played in the 2004 and 2009 Wimbledon finals is far beyond any I have seen vs Djokovic.
Roddick had the misfortune to play a top 3 grass courter of all time who is an awful matchup for him. Djokovic did beat Nadal who was also an outstanding grass courter back then, but this was at the height of Djokovic's technical and psychological ownage of Nadal, which was nothing like what Roddick was facing with Federer who owned him. Nadal also played a really weak match to lose to Djokovic in the Wimbledon final, likely due to the psychological scars that were already in place for Nadal that year, while Roddick only faced on fire Federer in the finals they played.
Had Djokovic beaten Nadal that played the 2007 and 2008 Wimbledon finals I would probably give him the edge over Roddick, but he didnt.
Roddick had the misfortune to play a top 3 grass courter of all time who is an awful matchup for him. Djokovic did beat Nadal who was also an outstanding grass courter back then, but this was at the height of Djokovic's technical and psychological ownage of Nadal, which was nothing like what Roddick was facing with Federer who owned him. Nadal also played a really weak match to lose to Djokovic in the Wimbledon final, likely due to the psychological scars that were already in place for Nadal that year, while Roddick only faced on fire Federer in the finals they played.
Had Djokovic beaten Nadal that played the 2007 and 2008 Wimbledon finals I would probably give him the edge over Roddick, but he didnt.
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
Had to go with the Djoker. He is a Wimbledon champion. His performance against Nadal in the Wimbledon final in 2011 impressed me more than anything Roddick has ever done on grass courts.
What was so amazing about that? The 3rd and 4th sets his play was mediocre, but Nadal apart from the 1st set was downright terrible that match. Had the 2011 Wimbledon final been Nadal and Djokovic's first meeting of the year as opposed to Nadal coming in off a 4 match losing streak, there is no way Djokovic would have won that match probably. Watch Roddick's play in the 2004 and 2009 Wimbledon finals, both which he could have easily won if he played a few of the big points better, and that was against Federer, probably a top 3 grass court player of all time.
Djokovic in winning his Wimbledon title even struggled quite a bit vs Tomic. Peak Roddick on grass would crush Tomic.
I agree with you overall. But not with the bolded part. No way in hell. Roddick's performances in the 2004 wimbledon final and 2009 wimbledon final were far better than anything djokovic could dream of having on grass. Roddick took it to peak federer in 2004 and would likely have won were it not for the rain delays. He then pushed still prime federer to the limit when federer was playing for his legacy. Actually go back and watch the 2004 final. It's better tennis from roddick there than novak has ever played.
The 2011 Wimbledon final was only good tennis in the 1st set when both Nadal and Djokovic were sharp and Nadal overall outplayed Novak, but lost it at the end due to Novak's huge mental hold. The 2nd set was very good from Novak and really bad from Nadal. The 3rd mediocre from both. The 4th mediocre from Novak and very bad from Nadal. As the match went on it became just slow and long grinding rallies but filled with easy groundstroke errors early in points. Nadal's complete lack of confidence playing Djokovic by then was very evident, as was that Djokovic is not a sensational grass player and never will be, Wimbledon title and all.
The Nadal of Wimbledon 2007 and 2008 not coming off a string of losses to Djokovic would probably beat Djokovic in straight sets. Meanwhile prime Federer who unlike Nadal is a bad matchup for Djokovic, in addition to a way better grass player, wouldnt even go to a single tiebreak vs 2011 Djokovic on grass.
The Nadal of Wimbledon 2007 and 2008 not coming off a string of losses to Djokovic would probably beat Djokovic in straight sets. Meanwhile prime Federer who unlike Nadal is a bad matchup for Djokovic, in addition to a way better grass player, wouldnt even go to a single tiebreak vs 2011 Djokovic on grass.
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
It was damn impressive. It was the first time since 2007 that Nadal lost a slam final. The 3rd and 4th set sucked, but the opening two sets featured some crazy shotmaking from Djokovic. He was dominating Nadal from the baseline that Federer couldn't manage to do consistently even in 2006.
And Peak Roddick was hardly a destructive force. The guy was never cruising into the finals. He was always playing 4 setters and scrapping through huge tiebreak sets. 2009 was as close as Roddick ever got and I don't think anybody would call 2009 "peak Federer".
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
Fair enough, but neither was Roddick.
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Did you see him not pound federer off the court till the rain delays in the 2004 wimbledon final.
Tenez101
Banned
Did you not see Novak destroy Rafa in the 2011 Wimbledon final? In a way Federer (let alone Roddick) could never do?
The 2011 Wimbledon final was not anymore a destruction than the 2006 Wimbledon final. Nadal ate a bagel and nearly another breadstick in the latter. Neither were peak Nadal on grass which was 2007-2010, so no difference there either.
Djokovic being a tough matchup for Nadal and having the good fortune to play Nadal on Djokovic's worst surface only at a time Djokovic was owning and had mentally broken Nadal does not make him a better grass court player than Roddick. The one thing that arguably does is the Wimbledon title. I have no problem with someone saying Djokovic is the better grass courter due to the Wimbledon title. I just think it becomes a tough call when Roddick's level of tennis on grass at his best was clearly better, and obviously many others feel that way too as the poll results show.
One could argue either way. It is really Djokovic's Wimbledon title, a huge fact in his favor vs Roddick's superior level of peak play on grass.
Djokovic being a tough matchup for Nadal and having the good fortune to play Nadal on Djokovic's worst surface only at a time Djokovic was owning and had mentally broken Nadal does not make him a better grass court player than Roddick. The one thing that arguably does is the Wimbledon title. I have no problem with someone saying Djokovic is the better grass courter due to the Wimbledon title. I just think it becomes a tough call when Roddick's level of tennis on grass at his best was clearly better, and obviously many others feel that way too as the poll results show.
One could argue either way. It is really Djokovic's Wimbledon title, a huge fact in his favor vs Roddick's superior level of peak play on grass.
Tenez101
Banned
Except Nadal was defending champion in 2011 and just a baby in 2006. Nadal of 2011, while not at his peak on grass, was very much near or in his prime on that surface. Certain Nadal 2011 on grass >>> Nadal 2006 on grass. In all, the nature and significance of Djokovic's 2011 win was much greater.
Nadal was on a long multi match streak of not losing his serve going into the 2006 Wimbledon final. I wouldnt be so sure it is such a slam dunk Nadal of Wimbledon 2006 was better than Nadal of Wimbledon 2011.
Either way the fact we are suggesting peak year Djokovic might have it easier vs prime Nadal than peak year Federer on grass is only proof how useless Nadal becomes as a barometer for Djokovic period, given Nadal's matchup issues (especialy in 2011) vs him. After all the very sugestion Djokovic is a better grass courter than Federer would be insanity.
So we cant use a match vs Nadal, and that Roddick probably wouldnt do as well vs Nadal (and even this we have no proof of as Roddick and Nadal never even played at Wimbledon) to compare Djokovic and Roddick on grass. Forgetting how well each would do vs said specific player, Roddick's pure level of grass tennis in the 2004 and 2009 finals and at those Wimbledons in general were higher than Novak in 2011. Roddick also reached that level on grass many more times- 2004, 2009, even 2003, while Novak only did in 2011.
Anyway in this comparision the most important comparision is not Nadal vs Djokovic vs Roddick vs Nadal, but Djokovic vs Roddick, and given that a past his prime Roddick was even regularly beating Djokovic on hard courts (which baffled me, but it is what happened) we can safely say the Roddick of those Wimbledons would have easily won over even 2011 Djokovic on grass. All other surfaces 2011 Djokovic wins, but not on grass.
Either way the fact we are suggesting peak year Djokovic might have it easier vs prime Nadal than peak year Federer on grass is only proof how useless Nadal becomes as a barometer for Djokovic period, given Nadal's matchup issues (especialy in 2011) vs him. After all the very sugestion Djokovic is a better grass courter than Federer would be insanity.
So we cant use a match vs Nadal, and that Roddick probably wouldnt do as well vs Nadal (and even this we have no proof of as Roddick and Nadal never even played at Wimbledon) to compare Djokovic and Roddick on grass. Forgetting how well each would do vs said specific player, Roddick's pure level of grass tennis in the 2004 and 2009 finals and at those Wimbledons in general were higher than Novak in 2011. Roddick also reached that level on grass many more times- 2004, 2009, even 2003, while Novak only did in 2011.
Anyway in this comparision the most important comparision is not Nadal vs Djokovic vs Roddick vs Nadal, but Djokovic vs Roddick, and given that a past his prime Roddick was even regularly beating Djokovic on hard courts (which baffled me, but it is what happened) we can safely say the Roddick of those Wimbledons would have easily won over even 2011 Djokovic on grass. All other surfaces 2011 Djokovic wins, but not on grass.
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. You can argue either way, but if you say Djokovic is not a sensational grass court player, than neither is Roddick.
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
Roddick was not going to win the 2004 final. That is just nonsense that people just say repeatedly as if it was the truth. Being up a break in the 3rd set when the match is tied at 1 set all does not mean Roddick would "would have won". He got a lot closer in 2009 where he was actually going to be a 2 sets up and Federer could hardly break his serve on that day.
Bolded claim is nothing more an opinion and for me, Djokovic's performance in the 2011 final tops Roddick's 2004 and Djokovic actually came out his match the winner unlike Roddick.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ Hard to say what would have happened in 2004 if not for the rain delay. In many, if not most, ways (but maybe not quite all), Andy outplayed Roger in the 2009 final. In the first 4 sets, Andy broke Roger 2x (or was it 3?). Roger won 2 ties-breaker but could not break Andy at all in the 1st 4 sets. It took him 4.25 hours to finally break Andy. It was that single service break that did Roddick in. A-Rod was robbed of a well-deserved win.
To Roddick's credit, he was playing the greatest grass deity during his GOD-mode years for their 3 W finals. Altho' FedEx was not quite as dominant in 2009 as he was in 2004-2007, he did have a stellar year in the slams in '09 -- playing in all 4 slam finals & taking the title in 2 of them. IMHO, this trumps the 2 finals that Novak played (even tho' his 2011 final against Rafa was outstanding).
To Roddick's credit, he was playing the greatest grass deity during his GOD-mode years for their 3 W finals. Altho' FedEx was not quite as dominant in 2009 as he was in 2004-2007, he did have a stellar year in the slams in '09 -- playing in all 4 slam finals & taking the title in 2 of them. IMHO, this trumps the 2 finals that Novak played (even tho' his 2011 final against Rafa was outstanding).
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Vish13
Semi-Pro
Ok .. That means Nadal and Djokovich are better grass courters than Pat Rafter ??? Do us a favour and talk some sense.
I agree with this. Djokovic certainly achieved more by winning the Wimbledon title, but I believe that Roddick would have had a winning record against Djokovic on grass if their careers had overlapped more. While Djokovic is clearly a better player than Roddick overall, I think that grass is his worst surface and it is Roddick's best.
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No one has answer to prove anything, but I'm pointing out the fact that Roddick faced a prime Federer who's the grass goat by consensus.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
No but it's a fact that Djokovic lost to Federer the one time they met at Wimbledon, and convincingly at that too. It's also a fact that Djokovic was in his prime in 2012, and that Roddick wasn't in 2009. If somehow you disagree with this, then the fact remains that Djokovic was far closer to his peak in 2012 than Roddick was in 2009.
It's also a fact that Roddick pushed Federer at Wimbledon (while Roddick himself was out his prime) far more than Djokovic has while he was in his own prime.
It's also a fact that Roddick has a favourable record against Djokovic, just as it's a fact that Roddick has more Wimbledon finals on differing speeds of grass (ie fast-ish and slow-ish), than does Djokovic.
Draw what conclusion you like, but I'll have you know that one conclusion is more logical than the other. The only fact in favour of Djokovic is the fact that Djokovic has a Wimbledon title and Roddick doesn't. If that's conclusive enough per se then you must also agree that Nadal is better than Djokovic at the US Open.
Now, despite all your emphases on the distinction between fact and opinion, you most likely have your mind made up already. Question is, how much of it is based on the facts you (ostensibly) treasure so much?
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batz
G.O.A.T.
Whilst I still say that Novak is greater because of his Wimbledon title, it's also worthy of note that Andy Roddick also beat Murray @ SW19 - something that Nole is yet to do.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
More ammo!
anantak2k
Semi-Pro
I disagree. The 2011 version of Novak on grass would still LOSE to Federer that year in 3 or 4 sets if they did meet. Novak couldn't beat Fed even on his best year on clay and barely scraped by at the USO.
Roddick > Djokovic
ON grass in their respective PEAK forms. NO DOUBT.
But in 2004 it was against peak federer. Roddick was blasting him off teh court.
5555
Hall of Fame
Which argument? Have I said that Djokovic is better grass court player than Roddick?
Good.
Have I said that Djokovic is better than Nadal at the US Open?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The FACTS are that 2nd place at the slams earns 1200 ATP points (compared to 2000 for the champion). That is more than the 1000 points that a champion gets for a Masters 1000 event. Sorry mate, but your FACTS are just plain wrong. I believe that the ATP knew what they were doing when they set up points breakdown for the slams and lesser events.
That all-or-nothing mentality is also seriously flawed=warped. 2nd best in the world means nothing! I'm just grateful that you don't have much influence with the ATP point system. This mentality gave us the highly skewed medal counts for the Chinese at the Beijing Olympic on 2008 -- more than half of their 100 medals that year were gold. Of course there were also numerous allegations concerning integrity and sportsmanship. The US medal count at London in 2012 was also somewhat skewed/suspect -- but nothing like count for the host nation in 2008.
Novak's 2 finals appearance at Wimbledon represent victories over 13 competitors. Andy's 3 finals appearance at Wimbledon represent victories over 18 competitors. That's rather simple math. Andy's 3 losses in those 3 finals were to the greatest grass player ever (who was at his peak or very close to his peak in those 3 years). In many ways, Andy outplayed Roger in 2009, yet still lost out to the great grass wonder.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
This is a great thread
Djokovic, the luckiest 3-time Wimbledon champ of all time
Djokovic, the luckiest 3-time Wimbledon champ of all time
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okdude1992
Hall of Fame
Obviously at this point you can't compare their achievements. Novak's 3 Wimbledon titles are an unbelievable accomplishment, and blow away anything Roddick ever did. But I feel like peak Roddick could have also beaten Nadal at Wimbledon or old Fed in 2014/2015. And I can't see Novak in his current form beating Federer at Wimbledon during the prime years.
I'd love to see 2004 or 2009 Roddick against Djokovic in a Wimbledon final. I honestly would like Roddick's chances given his h2h with Djokovic and the matchup issues he seemed to cause Novak. I also really wished to see the same version of Roddick against 2008 or 2010 Nadal. Either matchup could have been epic.
I'd love to see 2004 or 2009 Roddick against Djokovic in a Wimbledon final. I honestly would like Roddick's chances given his h2h with Djokovic and the matchup issues he seemed to cause Novak. I also really wished to see the same version of Roddick against 2008 or 2010 Nadal. Either matchup could have been epic.
okdude1992
Hall of Fame
Oh and one last thing, I really hope we see Djokovic vs Murray at Wimbledon next year. It is clear Djokovic owns the matchup vs Federer right now. But on grass, Djokovic has avoided Murray the last 2 years since losing to him on 2013. We need to see a rematch of that one!
RedFoe
Semi-Pro
We shall never understand that 2013 finale. I pulled for Murray, but Novak lead by a break in two sets. 4-2 I think both times, something like that. The 3-0 is not representative.
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