Who is the greater outdoor player, Federer, Nadal or Djokovic?

Thoughts?


  • Total voters
    79

The_Order

G.O.A.T.

haha ok, let's play...

You say Nadal is not a top tier ATG on outdoor hc... how many players in the open era have more hc majors than him? Sampras, Fed and Djok... that's it. Petros with only 1 more hc slam than him too...

As for grass, he's more a victim of circumstance... 3 Wimbledon finals v peak/prime Federer...

Djok, 3 Wimbledon finals v geriatric Federer...

Reverse the fortunes and Djok doesn't get a single win v Fed at Wimbledon whilst 06-08 Nadal wins all 3 encounters v geriatric Federer...

Then Djok has that 2018 WIM win thanks largely to the roof, outdoors Nadal in that form would have beat him, Djok knew this too which is why he insisted to continue play with the roof closed...

iinm, Nadal also has the most outdoor titles among the 3 as well.

Add to that his clay dominance.

There's your counter arguments.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
haha ok, let's play...

You say Nadal is not a top tier ATG on outdoor hc... how many players in the open era have more hc majors than him? Sampras, Fed and Djok... that's it. Petros with only 1 more hc slam than him too...

As for grass, he's more a victim of circumstance... 3 Wimbledon finals v peak/prime Federer...

Djok, 3 Wimbledon finals v geriatric Federer...


Reverse the fortunes and Djok doesn't get a single win v Fed at Wimbledon whilst 06-08 Nadal wins all 3 encounters v geriatric Federer...

Then Djok has that 2018 WIM win thanks largely to the roof, outdoors Nadal in that form would have beat him, Djok knew this too which is why he insisted to continue play with the roof closed...

iinm, Nadal also has the most outdoor titles among the 3 as well.

Add to that his clay dominance.

There's your counter arguments.

"Geriatric" Federer routined Nadal in 2019.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
It wasn't a routine and 2019 Nadal is nothing like 06-08 Nadal on grass...

Of course, you'd have no idea anyway

Lol, Nadal is not the only one who declines while getting older. Djokovic in 2019 wasn't like he was in 2014 or 2015 and still won.

And he is 5 years younger than Federer so age is not much of an excuse.

Djokovic beat Federer in 2014 when he was 5 years younger than the one that beat Nadal in 2019. And yes, four sets with the last two being 6-3 and 6-4 is routine.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Ned did decline pretty hard, but that's not an amazing excuse when his opponent was five years older and nearly into his 40's. Works for Djokovic (because he had more mileage even though both are near the same age) but it loses his bite in arguments against Fed.
 
You say Nadal is not a top tier ATG on outdoor hc... how many players in the open era have more hc majors than him? Sampras, Fed and Djok... that's it. Petros with only 1 more hc slam than him too...
i don't really care about slam counts, and particularly not for the sake of ignoring other events or forms of analysis. but even within that framework, a reasonable swapping exercise for Nadal with either Sampras or Agassi (while assuming he gets to remain elite on hard from '08-'22, as opposed to falling off earlier with the differing conditions and demands of the '90s), gives him about the same amount of hard court slams as those two. Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, and Sampras are the actual top tier ATGs on outdoor hard court, and they would all be likely to get boosts to their longevity and slam counts if they played in the past couple decades
As for grass, he's more a victim of circumstance... 3 Wimbledon finals v peak/prime Federer...
put '75-'81 Borg in for '05-'11 Nadal and he outperforms across that whole period (nearly every single year, too), which would yield him at least 3 Wimblys from '08-'10

also, Federer wasn't the one who made Nadal troll at Wimbledon from '12-'17 (at best it was his body every time, but that's either the story of his career or a skill issue on grass considering all the immediately prior RG-winning runs). if we want to talk about victims of circumstance, Becker's a better one - won his 3 titles, and lost to: injury ('84), peak Edberg twice, Doohan in The Upset, peak Stich, peak Agassi, Sampras, Ivanisevic, peak Sampras, injury, Sampras, and Rafter
Djok, 3 Wimbledon finals v geriatric Federer...

Reverse the fortunes and Djok doesn't get a single win v Fed at Wimbledon whilst 06-08 Nadal wins all 3 encounters v geriatric Federer...
methinks Nadal should have simply played well enough to reach and beat those geriatric versions of Federer
Then Djok has that 2018 WIM win thanks largely to the roof, outdoors Nadal in that form would have beat him
didn't seem to happen the previous time Nadal beat del Potro and then played Djokovic outdoors at Wimbledon!
iinm, Nadal also has the most outdoor titles among the 3 as well.
Add to that his clay dominance.
they're the same picture.png
 
Nadal is pretty clearly an ATG on outdoor hard courts.

Him being the only one to ever beat prime Fred at Wimbledon makes it hard to say he isn't one on grass either.
agreed that he's an ATG on those surfaces. i'm saying he's still below some other ATGs, who are still below some GOATs. same as Djokovic on clay
 
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None of the 3 really are 1st tier ATGs on all 3 surfaces anyway, at least to my eyes.
i would say: Federer is a GOAT on grass and hard and then borderline 3rd tier/sub-ATG on clay; Djokovic is a GOAT on hard, a 1st tier ATG on grass, and a 2nd tier ATG on clay; and Nadal is a GOAT on clay, a 2nd tier ATG on hard, and a 2nd/3rd tier ATG on grass. things get a little tricky with Federer vs Djokovic on grass, because it depends on how one assesses Federer vs Sampras on grass and Djokovic in general on grass. i lean towards Federer > Sampras >> Djokovic ~= Borg, and then there's the rest. at some point want to get around to sorting out the rest, especially because i think (for purely OE rankings) Laver, Newcombe, Rosewall, Ashe, and Smith are quite underexplored and interesting to consider. all-time is also a pretty thorny question
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
i don't really care about slam counts, and particularly not for the sake of ignoring other events or forms of analysis. but even within that framework, a reasonable swapping exercise for Nadal with either Sampras or Agassi (while assuming he gets to remain elite on hard from '08-'22, as opposed to falling off earlier with the differing conditions and demands of the '90s), gives him about the same amount of hard court slams as those two. Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, and Sampras are the actual top tier ATGs on outdoor hard court, and they would all be likely to get boosts to their longevity and slam counts if they played in the past couple decades
I do, and so do most tennis analysts...



put '75-'81 Borg in for '05-'11 Nadal and he outperforms across that whole period (nearly every single year, too), which would yield him at least 3 Wimblys from '08-'10

Lol yeah with a wooden racquet lmfao


also, Federer wasn't the one who made Nadal troll at Wimbledon from '12-'17 (at best it was his body every time, but that's either the story of his career or a skill issue on grass considering all the immediately prior RG-winning runs). if we want to talk about victims of circumstance, Becker's a better one - won his 3 titles, and lost to: injury ('84), peak Edberg twice, Doohan in The Upset, peak Stich, peak Agassi, Sampras, Ivanisevic, peak Sampras, injury, Sampras, and Rafter

methinks Nadal should have simply played well enough to reach and beat those geriatric versions of Federer

Different form, different events...

Same reason Djok didn't play well enough to reach peak/prime Fed at Wimbledon...

didn't seem to happen the previous time Nadal beat del Potro and then played Djokovic outdoors at Wimbledon!

Again, Different form, different event... you do know how tennis works right?

they're the same picture.png

They're not... it's so dumb to pretend all of Nadal's outdoor titles were on clay...

I should have known I'd be dealing with a shallow thinker...

All good, go on believing Borg would have dominated with his wooden racquet in 05-11 lmfao
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Lol, Nadal is not the only one who declines while getting older. Djokovic in 2019 wasn't like he was in 2014 or 2015 and still won.

oh really? Care to explain how declining Djok from 2018-current has won as many slams as 2005-2017... It's ok, you can admit it, we all know anyway :-D
And he is 5 years younger than Federer so age is not much of an excuse.

Where did I use age as an excuse?

Fact is different players decline differently... Nadal lost a lot more leg speed relative to Fed and Djok and that is what really hurt his performances as he got older.

Djokovic beat Federer in 2014 when he was 5 years younger than the one that beat Nadal in 2019. And yes, four sets with the last two being 6-3 and 6-4 is routine.

So you only know the score from wikipedia.... didn't even watch the match I bet... that 6-4 4th set was very close to becoming 5 all... if it was 3 sets up a break in each, then its routine.

Djokovic never beat peak/prime Federer at Wimbledon... the closest he got was 2012... would you say he got routined :-D
 

Racquet_smash

Professional
i would say: Federer is a GOAT on grass and hard and then borderline 3rd tier/sub-ATG on clay; Djokovic is a GOAT on hard, a 1st tier ATG on grass, and a 2nd tier ATG on clay; and Nadal is a GOAT on clay, a 2nd tier ATG on hard, and a 2nd/3rd tier ATG on grass. things get a little tricky with Federer vs Djokovic on grass, because it depends on how one assesses Federer vs Sampras on grass and Djokovic in general on grass. i lean towards Federer > Sampras >> Djokovic ~= Borg, and then there's the rest. at some point want to get around to sorting out the rest, especially because i think (for purely OE rankings) Laver, Newcombe, Rosewall, Ashe, and Smith are quite underexplored and interesting to consider. all-time is also a pretty thorny question
Meh. Djokovic on grass isn't on the same level as Sampras and Federer, i would put him alongside the Borg, Mac and so on which isn't a disservice to me. I can't just look at slam count. Same reason i put Borg and Nadal on clay on the same tier.

I'm talking about open era of course, otherwise Laver and others would comfortably make it to tier 1/2.
 

jl809

Legend
what's your actual counter-argument? i'll grant aggregate peak at slams, but i don't see a case for overall as you said. don't see Nadal as good enough on serve-return or neutral-aggressive play to credibly rate him alongside the likes of Borg on grass and Sampras on outdoor hard
My actual counterargument is that OP said “best outdoor player” and not “best player on outdoor grass and hard court”
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Ned did decline pretty hard, but that's not an amazing excuse when his opponent was five years older and nearly into his 40's. Works for Djokovic (because he had more mileage even though both are near the same age) but it loses his bite in arguments against Fed.

Nadal was definitely closer to his prime than Fed in 2017 and 2019 (ended both years #1), so yeah the age excuse doesn't fly there.

That said Nadal facing a better Fed at Wimbledon compared to Novak is a legit argument definitely.

Of course you can then also consider that Novak has been overall much more consistent at Wimbledon, how much of a free pass one gives to Nadal for all those early exits at Wimbledon (some of them in his prime years, like 2013) depends on whom you ask. He also did get the better of Nadal in their biggest Wimbledon matches, 2011 F and 2018 Wimbledon SF (of course the roof did give him an edge there, which goes against the topic of the thread).

As is often the case, there's not much separating the big 3.
 

Racquet_smash

Professional
I would give this to Nadal because the dominance over his favourite surface is something completely unprecedent in the history of the sport.

But i can see Federer having a strong argument due to being basically a GOAT player on 2 of the 3 outdoor surfaces.

As usual if you value consistency more Djokovic would be the better mention.
 
I do, and so do most tennis analysts...
i fear i don't concern myself with the unquestioned assumptions of such shallow thinkers
Lol yeah with a wooden racquet lmfao
how have you been on this forum for over a decade but you don't understand how to compare or even discuss players from different eras? what good does it do anyone to imagine Borg playing with a wooden racket against prime Federer on grass?
Different form, different events...

Same reason Djok didn't play well enough to reach peak/prime Fed at Wimbledon...
so you agree then that it's not a matter of fortune and simply the prime-level forms of three players happening to overlap differently? you can't say it was fortuitous for Djokovic to be best on grass from '11-'15 rather than Nadal's '06-'11, but then excuse away Nadal squandering that potential fortune from '12-'17 (and with earlier losses than Djokovic had from '07-'10) - that's inherently prioritizing/deprioritizing performance in certain time periods/at certain ages with no credible basis
Again, Different form, different event... you do know how tennis works right?
you're positing with absolute certainty that Nadal would have beat Djokovic at Wimbly '18 were it not for the roof, and suggesting that Djokovic's win was largely down to the roof, except there's literally no way of gauging the extent of that effect and we already have an example of Djokovic beating prime Nadal outdoors on grass... one might as well say that being indoors helped Nadal's serve not get brutalized by Djokovic, setting him up to be successfully aggressive throughout the match... if you agree that Nadal and Djokovic were both not in their primes, then the question of their forms at the time and the result of the hypothetical roofless match isn't even particularly relevant to the question of "who's better at their best on outdoor grass"...

the Wimbly '18 match doesn't particularly help Nadal in a relative comparison against Djokovic on grass, because it's ultimately one GOATed match they played against each other (out of a whole career of grass matches), that could conceivably have gone the other way, but generally favored the eventual winner (like AO '12 or RG '13), and furthermore had neither in their primes and both making comebacks to grass (or general) relevancy. anyway, given the presence of the roof, the match is in fact also irrelevant to the overall discussion about outdoor tennis
They're not... it's so dumb to pretend all of Nadal's outdoor titles were on clay...
62-24-4 (Nadal, 90) vs 20-52-8 (Djokovic, 80) vs 11-47-19 (Federer, 77)

the point is that Nadal's career-long domination of clay is the reason why he leads the outdoor title count, and so it is double counting to refer to those two things as separate points, not that the accomplishment isn't impressive or that he doesn't deserve to be #1 in that stat
My actual counterargument is that OP said “best outdoor player” and not “best player on outdoor grass and hard court”
OP also didn't say "best player on clay" or "most dominant on a single surface"! if i thought clay didn't matter then i would have obviously went with Federer, no?
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
i fear i don't concern myself with the unquestioned assumptions of such shallow thinkers

how have you been on this forum for over a decade but you don't understand how to compare or even discuss players from different eras? what good does it do anyone to imagine Borg playing with a wooden racket against prime Federer on grass?

so you agree then that it's not a matter of fortune and simply the prime-level forms of three players happening to overlap differently? you can't say it was fortuitous for Djokovic to be best on grass from '11-'15 rather than Nadal's '06-'11, but then excuse away Nadal squandering that potential fortune from '12-'17 (and with earlier losses than Djokovic had from '07-'10) - that's inherently prioritizing/deprioritizing performance in certain time periods/at certain ages with no credible basis

you're positing with absolute certainty that Nadal would have beat Djokovic at Wimbly '18 were it not for the roof, and suggesting that Djokovic's win was largely down to the roof, except there's literally no way of gauging the extent of that effect and we already have an example of Djokovic beating prime Nadal outdoors on grass... one might as well say that being indoors helped Nadal's serve not get brutalized by Djokovic, setting him up to be successfully aggressive throughout the match... if you agree that Nadal and Djokovic were both not in their primes, then the question of their forms at the time and the result of the hypothetical roofless match isn't even particularly relevant to the question of "who's better at their best on outdoor grass"...

the Wimbly '18 match doesn't particularly help Nadal in a relative comparison against Djokovic on grass, because it's ultimately one GOATed match they played against each other (out of a whole career of grass matches), that could conceivably have gone the other way, but generally favored the eventual winner (like AO '12 or RG '13), and furthermore had neither in their primes and both making comebacks to grass (or general) relevancy. anyway, given the presence of the roof, the match is in fact also irrelevant to the overall discussion about outdoor tennis

62-24-4 (Nadal, 90) vs 20-52-8 (Djokovic, 80) vs 11-47-19 (Federer, 77)

the point is that Nadal's career-long domination of clay is the reason why he leads the outdoor title count, and so it is double counting to refer to those two things as separate points, not that the accomplishment isn't impressive or that he doesn't deserve to be #1 in that stat

OP also didn't say "best player on clay" or "most dominant on a single surface"! if i thought clay didn't matter then i would have obviously went with Federer, no?

hahaha time to go back to playing angry birds
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Less bothered by elements and conditions etc...the only condition I think Djokovic is better in is slow af HC.
I guess that makes it all the more impressive that Djokovic has managed to achieve more on outdoor hard, indoor hard and clay overall. 8-B
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
I remember the days when Federer would have been out of touch on these polls. Was shocked when I saw the result.

@Kralingen
i-rmeeber.jpg
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
oh really? Care to explain how declining Djok from 2018-current has won as many slams as 2005-2017... It's ok, you can admit it, we all know anyway :-D


Because Djokovic from 2018-2023 declined compared to his best years but not that much (except for 2024), being a much better player than he was in 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010 or 2017.


Where did I use age as an excuse?

"He was not the player he was in 2006-2008".


Fact is different players decline differently... Nadal lost a lot more leg speed relative to Fed and Djok and that is what really hurt his performances as he got older.



So you only know the score from wikipedia.... didn't even watch the match I bet... that 6-4 4th set was very close to becoming 5 all... if it was 3 sets up a break in each, then its routine.

That is simply destroying someone. 4 sets with only one tie break is a routine. He was never in danger of losing. Unless a specific situation happens like being 1-1 and going to a tie-break in the 3rd, etc.


Djokovic never beat peak/prime Federer at Wimbledon... the closest he got was 2012... would you say he got routined :-D

Yes, he got routined in 2012. But then only two years later beat him in 2014. You try to diminish that win as Federer "being old" but Nadal lost to a Federer FIVE years older there (which Djokovic beat as well).
 

Tano

Hall of Fame
All Slams are outdoor, BUT W 2018 (yes, I did it again) was played indoor in the SF between Nadovic. Had it been outdoor, who knows if the Slam tally would be 23-23.

With that being said, I think it's pretty close between Nadovic. Don't know if París Bercy is played indoor, and I don't know how many of those Novak has. If, excluding París Bercy and other indoor masters 1000 events, Novak still has more Masters 1000 than Rafa, then he could be rightfully deemed the outdoor GOAT.
It's amazing how (bad) decisions can change the course of a result.
 
Djokovic has the slam count, and has won every big outdoor title multiple times, including at least three slams at each venue.

Nadal has the masters series count, and he has also won more titles than anyone outdoors and leads the H2H with both Federer and Djokovic outdoors.

Federer had the highest concentration period of dominance outdoors, and only player to defend at least three different slams multiple times each

Poll added
Interesting thread albeit it predictably its descended into fanboyism. I say interesting as when i judge Nadal as the greatest of the 3 it is precisely because i only judge tennis achievements in respect of outdoor tennis January-September (end of USO). The current poll result is in favour of Nadal.
A bolt on to this thread poll is to examine how important to a player's legacy is the indoor season post USO. I have never personally placed any importance on what happens post USO and by then have moved over to NFL and Soccer. To me tennis is an outdoor sport. What fascinates me about this thread is by extension looking at the results, many place huge importance on the indoor season, which is kinda cool as means i can get into Rotterdam more now and not feel depressed the AO is over!
I wonder has a poll ever been done between Becker and Edberg as to who was greater as that would be interesting. Becker was arguably the greatest ever indoors player. And slightly going off topic, but why would Becker have been so formidable indoors v Sampras but not be able to beat him on grass. What was the crucial difference between indoor carpet and grass?
One thing i am glad about, and why i think this is a great thread, is it goes to prove there is no GOAT as people value different achievements more than others. Obviously for those who consider indoor tennis important Rafa if we are honest was a bit of a non-entity indoors whereas Roger and Novak were a force on everything.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
An issue he had against Nadal particularly in hot conditions was dealing with the cc fh into his bh
Yes, true, but that's a matchup issue, he had it with lots of people, and he'd have it indoors too, if less so. Nadal under the sun just exploited it more than anyone.
 

Aabye5

G.O.A.T.
Interesting thread albeit it predictably its descended into fanboyism. I say interesting as when i judge Nadal as the greatest of the 3 it is precisely because i only judge tennis achievements in respect of outdoor tennis January-September (end of USO). The current poll result is in favour of Nadal.
A bolt on to this thread poll is to examine how important to a player's legacy is the indoor season post USO. I have never personally placed any importance on what happens post USO and by then have moved over to NFL and Soccer. To me tennis is an outdoor sport. What fascinates me about this thread is by extension looking at the results, many place huge importance on the indoor season, which is kinda cool as means i can get into Rotterdam more now and not feel depressed the AO is over!
I wonder has a poll ever been done between Becker and Edberg as to who was greater as that would be interesting. Becker was arguably the greatest ever indoors player. And slightly going off topic, but why would Becker have been so formidable indoors v Sampras but not be able to beat him on grass. What was the crucial difference between indoor carpet and grass?
One thing i am glad about, and why i think this is a great thread, is it goes to prove there is no GOAT as people value different achievements more than others. Obviously for those who consider indoor tennis important Rafa if we are honest was a bit of a non-entity indoors whereas Roger and Novak were a force on everything.

If you aren't watching Rotterdam, you're truly missing out on some good tennis. Lehecka had his breakthrough there a few years ago, and Felix and Stef played a great final that same year. Sinner and La Monf have both had fabulous runs there. And that's just the past few years.

 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
How is Federer more versatile than Djokovic? :unsure:
What's the confusion?
Djokovic can't play serve and volley on fast court
Versatile player thrive the challenge and don't threat to boycott a tournament because that he/she can't adapt to a different environment
 
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