Who is the Greatest Male Player of Asian Descent?

Who is the GOAT Male of Asian Descent?

  • Michael Chang

    Votes: 31 68.9%

  • Kei Nishikori

    Votes: 6 13.3%

  • Sumit Nagal

    Votes: 8 17.8%
  • Total voters
    45
Berrettini_Fan

Berrettini_Fan

Hall of Fame
We all know Li Na and Naomi Osaka are the greatest female players of Asian descent. But what about males?

Here are the top 3 contenders:

1. Michael Chang - Won 34 titles, including 1 Slam (1989 FO) and 7 Masters. Made 3 additional slam finals (1995 FO, 1996 AO, and 1996 USO). Youngest Male Slam Champion in Open Era history. Peak ranking of #2.

2. Kei Nishikori - Won 12 titles, including 1 Slam Final (2014 USO) and 4 Masters Finals. Peak ranking of #4. Played during the Big 4 era so he probably would've won at least 40 titles in any other era.

3. Sumit Nagal: Won the 2015 Junior Wimbledon Title (in doubles). Peak ranking of #68 and 15-35 career record doesn't tell the whole story. He won the 1st set vs Peak Federer at 2019 USOpen. That achievement is worth at least 5 Slams. Being mistaken for Nadal in tournament draws is worth another 12 Slams.
 
How fast at running was Chang compared to Nadal and Alcaraz :alien: was he fast as them?!
 
Marat Safin was a Tartar, so he is unquestionably the greatest tennis player of Asian descent.

You could argue that he was completely Russified, but the question is about descent/ethnicity.
 
Berrettini_Fan said:
2. Kei Nishikori - Won 12 titles, including 1 Slam Final (2014 USO) and 4 Masters Finals. Peak ranking of #4. Played during the Big 4 era so he probably would've won at least 40 titles in any other era.
Click to expand...
How can titles won include finals that he didn't win? This doesn't make sense.

Nishi is easily surpassed by Chang despite era-based excuses.
 
Bartelby said:
Marat Safin was a Tartar, so he is unquestionably the greatest tennis player of Asian descent.

You could argue that he was completely Russified, but the question is about descent/ethnicity.
Click to expand...
You'd have to go back generations for the last time that Safin's ancestors were in Asia. Safin was born in Moscow, and lived there until moving to Valencia at age 14. His immediate Tatar ancestors were from the Gorky Oblast, which is in European Russia.
 
I wonder if these threads are intended to at least be funny, when in reality they don't achieve this either since as well as being useless they are also embarrassingly sad.
 
Berrettini_Fan said:
We all know Li Na and Naomi Osaka are the greatest female players of Asian descent.
Click to expand...
images
 
It depends what you mean by descent, but the conventional use does tend to favour referring to Safin as Tartar.

And I already acknowledged that he was Russified, but the question is about descent.

Mustard said:
You'd have to go back generations for the last time that Safin's ancestors were in Asia. Safin was born in Moscow, and lived there until moving to Valencia at age 14. His immediate Tatar ancestors were from the Gorky Oblast, which is in European Russia.
Click to expand...
 
Mustard said:
Obviously Michael Chang, by some distance.


2005 Nadal was perhaps faster than any player. Beyond just his speed alone, nobody was as good as the Nadal of the noughties at producing brilliant shots when on the run/stretch.
Click to expand...
I touched Rafael Nadal's shoulder once!
My hand got his sweat too even :love:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Chang was born in Hoboken, New Jersey. Safin was better even if more remote from his generational roots, but it's "descent" that is important.

Mustard said:
Obviously Michael Chang, by some distance.


2005 Nadal was perhaps faster than any player. Beyond just his speed alone, nobody was as good as the Nadal of the noughties at producing brilliant shots when on the run/stretch.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Bartelby said:
Chang was born in Hoboken, New Jersey. Safin was better even if more remote from his generational roots, but it's "descent" that is important.
Click to expand...
Michael Chang's parents and grandparents were close to, or worked for, Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang government, even fleeing with him to Taiwan when Mao Tse-tung's Communist forces won the Chinese mainland during the Chinese Civil War. This happened before the Changs later left Taiwan to move to the USA.

My point before was that Marat Safin's most recent Tatar ancestors are from Moscow or the Gorky Oblast in European Russia, and that you would have to go back several generations to Safin's ancestors living in Asia. The Tatars are, or were, originally from the Asian Turkmen territories, including modern Turkey, and Asian Soviet states like Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan.
 
The Changs are Chinese of recent date, whereas Safin's Tartar roots are more distant.

But is Safin's descent still Tartar? Yes.

Are Tartars of Asian descent? Yes.
 
Bartelby said:
The Changs are Chinese of recent date, whereas Safin's Tartar roots are more distant.

But is Safin's descent still Tartar? Yes.

Are Tartars of Asian descent? Yes.
Click to expand...
Is Tartar a race/nationality?!
I thought it was teeth decay :cautious:
 
Bartelby said:
The Changs are Chinese of recent date, whereas Safin's Tartar roots are more distant.

But is Safin's descent still Tartar? Yes.

Are Tartars of Asian descent? Yes.
Click to expand...
I doubt OP meant Asian descent in the broader sense of being from an ethnic group that inhabits Asia, but rather more specifically as beloning to the Asian race. It's not the same being Asian in a geogeaphical sense than in a racial sense.

Safin is not of Asian race, he's European and Caucasian.

1. He was born in Moscow, which is entirely in Europe.

2. Tatars are an ethnic group coming from.both Eastern European and Asian regions. Depending on the region they come from, they can be said of being Asian, in the sense of belonging to the continent of Asia, but not in the sense of being "racially" Asian (they don't have the same race as Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc ), as they're Caucasian.

The borders of a continent never stablish the limit of a race. It's not like everyone in Asia is of the same race. The "Asian race" is for people with a specific phenotype/genotype from East Asia and South East Asia, not for everyone inhabitating Asia. For instance, you can clearly tell that prople from Israel (Jews) or the United Arab Emirates (Arabs) are racially different from people from South Korea (Asians in a "racial" sense). Being born in Asia makes you Asian in a geographical sense, but not necessarily in a "racial" sense.
 
My more general point is that when people say Asian they think Chinese or thereabouts, so the whole term is a bit useless in the tennis context.

Chang is an American and won his titles as an American so why he needs to be seen as an 'Asian great' is a mystery to me.

Sport said:
I doubt OP meant Asian descent in the broader sense of being from an ethnic group that inhabits Asia, but rather more specifically as beloning to the Asian race. It's not the same being Asian in a geogeaphical sense than in a racial sense.

Safin is not of Asian race, he's European and Caucasian.

1. He was born in Moscow, which is entirely in Europe.

2. Tatars are an ethnic group coming from.both Eastern European and Asian regions. Depending on the region they come from, they can be said of being Asian, in the sense of belonging to the continent of Asia, but not in the sense of being "racially" Asian (they don't have the same race as Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc ), as they're Caucasian.

The borders of a continent never stablish the limit of a race. It's not like everyone in Asia is of the same race. The "Asian race" is for people with a specific phenotype/genotype from East Asia and South East Asia, not for everyone inhabitating Asia. For instance, you can clearly tell that prople from Israel (Jews) or the United Arab Emirates (Arabs) are racially different from people from South Korea (Asians in a "racial" sense). Being born in Asia makes you Asian in a geographical sense, but not necessarily in a "racial" sense.
Click to expand...
 
sureshs said:
Ramanathan Krishnan, Ramesh Krishnan, Vijay Amritraj, Leander Paes, Mahesh Bhupati, Sumit Nadal.
Click to expand...
These are just Indian tennis players who did well at singles along with doubles.
I think Vijay Amritraj takes the cake. He won many atp titles, beat all top players and reached wimbledon qf twice. Was 2 sets to love up against connors in 1982 wimbledon. Reached top ranking of 16.

Honorable mention. Leander paes who won olympic bronze and junior wimbledon
 
Sport said:
I doubt OP meant Asian descent in the broader sense of being from an ethnic group that inhabits Asia, but rather more specifically as beloning to the Asian race. It's not the same being Asian in a geogeaphical sense than in a racial sense.

Safin is not of Asian race, he's European and Caucasian.

1. He was born in Moscow, which is entirely in Europe.

2. Tatars are an ethnic group coming from.both Eastern European and Asian regions. Depending on the region they come from, they can be said of being Asian, in the sense of belonging to the continent of Asia, but not in the sense of being "racially" Asian (they don't have the same race as Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc ), as they're Caucasian.

The borders of a continent never stablish the limit of a race. It's not like everyone in Asia is of the same race. The "Asian race" is for people with a specific phenotype/genotype from East Asia and South East Asia, not for everyone inhabitating Asia. For instance, you can clearly tell that prople from Israel (Jews) or the United Arab Emirates (Arabs) are racially different from people from South Korea (Asians in a "racial" sense). Being born in Asia makes you Asian in a geographical sense, but not necessarily in a "racial" sense.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I meant! Thank you.
 
roysid said:
These are just Indian tennis players who did well at singles along with doubles.
I think Vijay Amritraj takes the cake. He won many atp titles, beat all top players and reached wimbledon qf twice. Was 2 sets to love up against connors in 1982 wimbledon. Reached top ranking of 16.

Honorable mention. Leander paes who won olympic bronze and junior wimbledon
Click to expand...
Probably Ramanathan Krishnan. He was informally ranked 4th in the world before the Open Era.
 
sureshs said:
Probably Ramanathan Krishnan. He was informally ranked 4th in the world before the Open Era.
Click to expand...
True. he also reached wimbledon semis in 1960-61. Vijay's time got more coverage because of borg, connors, mcenroe etc. Plus he acted in James Bond film.

Its very tough to compare between generations and two decades between Ramanathan Krishnan and Vijay Amritraj. Vijay reached 4 slam quarterfinal (not 2) and won 15 titles.

Honorable mention: Ramesh Krishan (son of Ramanathan Krishnan). Didn't have much power but what an artist with slice and precision. Was known as "Surgeon of the tour". Reached 3 slam QF and won 8 titles.
 
Bartelby said:
My more general point is that when people say Asian they think Chinese or thereabouts, so the whole term is a bit useless in the tennis context.

Chang is an American and won his titles as an American so why he needs to be seen as an 'Asian great' is a mystery to me.
Click to expand...
Yes but when he was coming up, he was viewed as an Asian. It is not like that today. It is a complex topic.
 
Bartelby said:
Chang is an American and won his titles as an American so why he needs to be seen as an 'Asian great' is a mystery to me.
Click to expand...

Chang had been identified in racial terms from the second he made his first splash in professional tennis. It was not an unexpected situation, since tennis had long been viewed as a sport largely for white people more than anyone else, so Chang--as part of the next generation which included Sampras, Courier, Agassi, Martin, Wheaton, et al., was seen as an outlier, making his every move up the tennis ladder a milestone for Asian tennis players. This is a constantly used identifying point for others well (recall the mass interest in / analysis of the Williams sisters as African Americans / black in general relevant to tennis history and their predecessors when they made their majors breakthroughs), so for Chang to be identified by race was quite common in his day.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Chang had been identified in racial terms from the second he made his first splash in professional tennis. It was not an unexpected situation, since tennis had long been viewed as a sport largely for white people more than anyone else, so Chang--as part of the next generation which included Sampras, Courier, Agassi, Martin, Wheaton, et al., was seen as an outlier, making his every move up the tennis ladder a milestone for Asian tennis players. This is a constantly used identifying point for others well (recall the mass interest in / analysis of the Williams sisters as African Americans / black in general relevant to tennis history and their predecessors when they made their majors breakthroughs), so for Chang to be identified by race was quite common in his day.
Click to expand...
Yes I already pointed that out.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Chang had been identified in racial terms from the second he made his first splash in professional tennis. It was not an unexpected situation, since tennis had long been viewed as a sport largely for white people more than anyone else, so Chang--as part of the next generation which included Sampras, Courier, Agassi, Martin, Wheaton, et al., was seen as an outlier, making his every move up the tennis ladder a milestone for Asian tennis players. This is a constantly used identifying point for others well (recall the mass interest in / analysis of the Williams sisters as African Americans / black in general relevant to tennis history and their predecessors when they made their majors breakthroughs), so for Chang to be identified by race was quite common in his day.
Click to expand...
It also has an impact on their personalities, e.g., being very vocal about religion as a kind of "neutralizing" acceptable feature, or overly patriotic.
 
This merely confirms my point that talking about "Asian descent" is highly problematic. Chang's "Asianess" is merely a footnote in American racial relations.

sureshs said:
Yes but when he was coming up, he was viewed as an Asian. It is not like that today. It is a complex topic.
Click to expand...
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Chang had been identified in racial terms from the second he made his first splash in professional tennis. It was not an unexpected situation, since tennis had long been viewed as a sport largely for white people more than anyone else, so Chang--as part of the next generation which included Sampras, Courier, Agassi, Martin, Wheaton, et al., was seen as an outlier, making his every move up the tennis ladder a milestone for Asian tennis players. This is a constantly used identifying point for others well (recall the mass interest in / analysis of the Williams sisters as African Americans / black in general relevant to tennis history and their predecessors when they made their majors breakthroughs), so for Chang to be identified by race was quite common in his day.
Click to expand...
 
If people are including Indian players then I would think Russia would qualify, being that it is located in the continent of Asia. Safin was already mentioned, but would need to consider Medvedev, Kafelnikov, Rublev, and on the women's side Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Myskina, Safina, Zvonereva, Dementieva, and Vesnina
 
jhick said:
If people are including Indian players then I would think Russia would qualify, being that it is located in the continent of Asia. Safin was already mentioned, but would need to consider Medvedev, Kafelnikov, Rublev, and on the women's side Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Myskina, Safina, Zvonereva, Dementieva, and Vesnina
Click to expand...
Russia is considered more European than Asian. Think of all the geopolitical conflicts from the 20th century onwards for Russia. All euro-based. Also, when you see a Russian, do you think European or Asian in terms of racial identity?
 
Bartelby said:
My more general point is that when people say Asian they think Chinese or thereabouts
Click to expand...
In America, "Asian" usually means from from East Asia or Southeast Asia. In Britain, "Asian" usually means from the Indian subcontinent (i.e. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka). We sometimes say Orientals for East Asians, although that's politically incorrect in some quarters.

British Police have their IC codes:

IC1: White (Northern European descent)
IC2: White (Southern European descent)
IC3: Black (African descent, Caribbean descent, or Other)
IC4: Asian (Indian subcontinent descent)
IC5: Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or any other East Asian or Southeast Asian (Orientals)
IC6: Arab or North African (Middle East Arabian or North African descent)
IC9: Unknown descent or mixed race

So Rafael Nadal is an IC2 male.
 
Berrettini_Fan said:
Russia is considered more European than Asian. Think of all the geopolitical conflicts from the 20th century onwards for Russia. All euro-based. Also, when you see a Russian, do you think European or Asian in terms of racial identity?
Click to expand...
Loaded question. Russia has many wars ongoing in 20th century in Asia and not Europe.

Afghan war , Middle East involvement especially in Egypt to Iran war vs Israel, and supporting armenia and overturning governments in Central Asia.

Maybe you are more focused on European side of the conflicts.

Russia straight up disintegrated due to Afghanistan war.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Loaded question. Russia has many wars ongoing in 20th century in Asia and not Europe.

Afghan war , Middle East involvement especially in Egypt to Iran war vs Israel, and supporting armenia and overturning governments in Central Asia.

Maybe you are more focused on European side of the conflicts.

Russia straight up disintegrated due to Afghanistan war.
Click to expand...
Yeah but the populated regions of Russia is almost all in Europe. The Asian regions of Russia is pretty much Siberia where nobody lives.
 
Berrettini_Fan said:
Russia is considered more European than Asian. Think of all the geopolitical conflicts from the 20th century onwards for Russia. All euro-based. Also, when you see a Russian, do you think European or Asian in terms of racial identity?
Click to expand...
Not in a geographical sense.
 
There is no such thing as Europe at one level. It is the Western tip of the Eurasian landmass. Conflicts were at either end, but are now seen as connected.

Seen this way, is it any surprise that tennis has spread from Europe to non-European cultures?

Berrettini_Fan said:
Russia is considered more European than Asian. Think of all the geopolitical conflicts from the 20th century onwards for Russia. All euro-based. Also, when you see a Russian, do you think European or Asian in terms of racial identity?
Click to expand...
 
The Soviet Union collapsed due to the stagnation of its economic model. And it was a global power in its day so it intervened in many parts of the world.

Tennis, however, didn't follow the flag but the Soviets were very pro-secular. We have remnants of British Empire visiting us today. They're called the Indian cricket team.

nolefam_2024 said:
Loaded question. Russia has many wars ongoing in 20th century in Asia and not Europe.

Afghan war , Middle East involvement especially in Egypt to Iran war vs Israel, and supporting armenia and overturning governments in Central Asia.

Maybe you are more focused on European side of the conflicts.

Russia straight up disintegrated due to Afghanistan war.
Click to expand...
 
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