Who is the second best german player of the open era? Stich or Zverev?

Who is the 2nd best german player?

  • Stich

    Votes: 48 81.4%

  • Zverev

    Votes: 11 18.6%
  • Total voters
    59
insideoutforehanders said:
Zverev's achievements in comparision are not enough to compensate for 0 slams vs 1. Stich has a YEC too, Stich has a YE#2 too, Stich has slam finals on each surface, Stich has an Olympic Gold too, Stich has Masters titles too. So even just on achievements Zverev would need to win a slam to be ahead.

That is even before considering he plays in the worst era ever and Stich one of the toughest.
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Idk, 5 more masters and 1 more YEC is pretty big. Plus, Zverev gold is in singles... not the same (unless I am defending Fed).
 
Rosstour said:
Not when you're a diabetic

Was Stich as good for as long as Zverev has been?
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Hyde said:
Stich also retired early. He was like 28 or something like that when he retired.
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Longevity arguments need to be retired when comparing todays players to past eras. Almost everyone on tour in the 90s had a much shorter career than majority of all players playing today(you can easily look at the age of the top 100 for say 1997 on the ATP's website to see how different the amount of late 20s/early to mid 30s players there were compared to today) Someone 28 was not considered young in the 90s. And Stich had many injuries, it became too much to keep competing. Sports medicine and knowledge has improved 1000% in the last 30 years. I saw a recent interview with Fritz's trainer on TC, he said every year he is learning new and better ways for players to recover from matches, to train differently to avoid injury. So Zverev has all the ingredients to keep playing at a high level into his 30s, while players of the past did not(seems like everyone today has a traveling physio, even doubles guys - that was not the case in the 90s).

If Zverev ever has a good result on grass then we can compare. Stich had many great results on clay, his worst surface. He was so good on clay that Germany actually picked clay as the surface for the final in '93 when Stich won the cup for them single-handedly(counting doubles Stich was 9-0 in live matches that year) Germany picking clay as surface for Becker in the 80s would have been unthinkable.

And he beat Muster at '96 RG when Muster was an overwhelming favorite to defend his title. Muster's record on clay coming into RG that year was 31-1, he won Barcelona, Monte Carlo and Rome. Stich's record on clay was 1-1(only played Rome, he was struggling with injury that year)

So basically Stich did the two of the toughest things to do in the 90s - beat prime Becker and Edberg back to back to win Wimbledon, and beat Muster at '96 RG when he was having the most dominant run on clay of the decade. Beating Sampras in a YEC final wasn't too shabby either, that was the only YEC final Sampras ever lost. And it was best of 5 - frankly the best of 3 final has devalued the event IMO, it doesn't feel special anymore.

So what are Zverev's most impressive wins in majors? Beating Casper Ruud?
 
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Moose Malloy said:
Germany picking clay as surface for Becker in the 80s would have been unthinkable.
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Germany picked clay in '85 and Becker thrashed Teltscher and Krickstein
Moose Malloy said:
Stich had many great results on clay, his worst surface. He was so good on clay that Germany actually picked clay as the surface for the final in '93 when Stich won the cup for them single-handedly
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i think if the clay pick was about Stich hard-carrying (either prior as intention, or afterwards as measure of success), it shouldn't have:

1. been indoors. i think outdoor clay would have accentuated the playstyle considerations (i.e. it would have been even more asymmetrically annoying to the Aussies), been doable even when accounting for December weather, and had precedent given the location in Dusseldorf

2. involved a 5 set, nervy, servebotting battle with Stoltenberg. from here:
Stich won 6-7, 6-3, 6-1, 4-6, 6-3. In their only previous match, at the Australian Open in January, the 1991 Wimbledon champion defeated Stoltenberg 6-1 in the fifth set. That was on a medium-paced concrete court. The technique remained the same on clay, both players aiming to hit big serves and conclude the points with the first volley. This gave an impression of Wimbledon on Valium.

Stoltenberg, belying his world ranking of No 44, took a 2-0 lead in the final set, taking advantage of signs of fatigue in the ATP Tour champion. Stich, leading 40-0 in the opening game, double-faulted for the first time in the match. Stoltenberg pounced, worrying the German into further errors and breaking with a spectacular cross-court drive volley.

Stich was so upset that he tossed his racket on to his bag while Niki Pilic, the German captain, made attempts to reassure him during the changeover. Stoltenberg, meanwhile, remained calm while heeding the advice of Neale Fraser, and promptly went out to hold serve.

The crowd, resorting to Mexican waves, was desperate for an indication that Stich, like the Boris Becker of fond memory, could still deliver when the going became rough. Their man supplied it in the fourth game. Though Stoltenberg saved one break point, he fluffed the second. Having produced some fine serves to salvage big points earlier, the Australian double-faulted, and Stich was level.
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The job could have been a lot shorter. Stich, usually a master of the tie-break - he had won his previous five - seemed to go walk-about in the first set shoot-out.

En route to the tie-break, the German had saved a break point in the second game and the Australian had saved one in the 11th. The Australian then produced a backhand winner to terminate a 35-shot rally which reminded us that the surface was conducive to rallying.
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The Australian broke for the first time in the match in the third game of the fourth set. This was enough to fill Stich with doubt again, and Stoltenberg began to look by far the more confident player. Though he was unable to sustain the pressure in the fifth set, Stoltenberg vindicated Fraser's decision to select him ahead of the 30-year-old Wally Masur.

'That was a lot of hard work,' Stich said. 'Fortunately he got a bit nervous and made a few mistakes. Jason made me work hard but I probably played at about 70-80 per cent of my ability.'
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i think the choice of clay specifically as the surface was more about blunting the Woodies (who had already won plenty of big titles on hard, grass, and carpet, but none of any kind on clay) and helping Goellner be more competitive (especially after undoubtedly gaining confidence from beating Edberg on clay in Sweden). fwiw, this (archived) AP article just mentions audience capacity as the main consideration in the choice of venue
Moose Malloy said:
If Zverev ever has a good result on grass then we can compare. Stich had many great results on clay, his worst surface.
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i think Stich's worst conditions were outdoor hard, where his best wins were overcoming his pigeonizer Kafelnikov (who i guess managed that by being one of the few people who could consistently return And hit passing shots) at USO '94, servebotting (90% 1st SPW for 1 of 13 total instances on hard in his career) against Courier (10% 1st RPW for 1 of 5 total instances on hard in his career) in Canada '95, and beating a tanking Sampras (who won only 7 points on serve in the 3rd set) in Cinci '95

on grass Zv*rev has wins over '16erer; pre-prime Fritz; and the assorted Wimbly SFists of Norrie, RBA, and Gasquet. his worst loss at Wimbly in his entire career was either vs grass specialist Kudla in '15 (his first Wimbly), or vs Gulbis in '18 while sick, with all other Wimbly losses coming against credible grass threats. meanwhile Stich lost disappointingly at AO and USO without any clear asterisks, to the likes of Holm, Washington, and Black. it's quite close, and if we're throwing out potential Zv*rev longevity completely (to prop up a guy in Stich who would never have had great longevity anyway), then i'm throwing out a single USO run where Stich left his peaking gene at the doorstep of the final
Moose Malloy said:
basically Stich did the two of the toughest things to do in the 90s - beat prime Becker and Edberg back to back to win Wimbledon, and beat Muster at '96 RG when he was having the most dominant run on clay of the decade
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1. this becomes a lot less impressive when you remember that Becker yielded 50% unreturned serves, Edberg lost a lottery match that he was generally getting the better of, and Volkov also lost an earlier lottery match against Stich
2. this becomes a lot less impressive when you look at the list of other names that beat Muster at RG
Moose Malloy said:
Beating Sampras in a YEC final wasn't too shabby either, that was the only YEC final Sampras ever lost. And it was best of 5 - frankly the best of 3 final has devalued the event IMO, it doesn't feel special anymore.
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well hey, good thing bo3 devalued YEC, huh! otherwise we might have to take Zv*rev winning 2 YECs and beating all of Djokovic, Medvedev, and Alcaraz, multiple times (along with Federer once), seriously. we also can't take Zv*rev thrashing Djokovic and Khachanov at the Olympics seriously, because it's bo3 and not a traditional big event so it doesn't really matter anyway
Moose Malloy said:
So what are Zverev's most impressive wins in majors? Beating Casper Ruud?
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how are we gonna do this bit when Zv*rev has 4 wins over Sinner and Alcaraz at majors
insideoutforehanders said:
Haas is indeed very overrated. I am fine ranking Zverev over him. At his peak he couldn't even win the abysmal 02 Australian Open Johansson won.
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hitting that AO '02 SF with an indoor conditions asterisk. Safin got bailed out by rain just like Federer at various Wimblys

anyway. true Germanheads know that Kohlschreiber outpeaks Zv*rev And Stich everywhere and out auras them to boot. 2-0 vs Zv*rev at USO and took a set off pre-F USO '13 Nadal, took a set off pre-F Wimbly '09 Federer, beat Djokovic at RG '09 and took a set off him in '13, beat Roddick at AO '08, was part of a truly dramatic and historically important battle vs Ferrer at Davis Cup '18, and was a proper all-courter who could actually hit a forehand and not spray double faults even though he wasn't built like a tree
 
Lleytonstation said:
Idk, 5 more masters and 1 more YEC is pretty big. Plus, Zverev gold is in singles... not the same (unless I am defending Fed).
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Stich has also a Grand Slam cup - which was best of 5 in the last 2 rounds. It is easily the equivalent of another YEC.

Here is who he beat in that competition:

Edberg - 8 - 6 in the final set
Krajicek
Sampras - he won 3 tie breaks
Chang
 
insideoutforehanders said:
Zverev's achievements in comparision are not enough to compensate for 0 slams vs 1. Stich has a YEC too, Stich has a YE#2 too, Stich has slam finals on each surface, Stich has an Olympic Gold too, Stich has Masters titles too. So even just on achievements Zverev would need to win a slam to be ahead.

That is even before considering he plays in the worst era ever and Stich one of the toughest.
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What a stupid idea.
What is a doubles slam worth compared to a singles slam? Think about it. Then answer why there should be a different ratio for Olympic gold!
 
insideoutforehanders said:
Zverev's achievements in comparision are not enough to compensate for 0 slams vs 1. Stich has a YEC too, Stich has a YE#2 too, Stich has slam finals on each surface, Stich has an Olympic Gold too, Stich has Masters titles too. So even just on achievements Zverev would need to win a slam to be ahead.

That is even before considering he plays in the worst era ever and Stich one of the toughest.
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And a cheater.
Use of simple plural trying to make both appear the same: 2 = 1000.
 
If we consider all German male tennis players, then Gottfried Von Cramm is the best.
He won two grand slams, was runner up at another 5 or 6.
This were during the 30s
 
GuyForget said:
Stich. 5-4 vs Sampras (+beat him in 93 YEC final) plus 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces, beautiful serve+ backhand. Zverev will never win a slam. Shame Stich was never in great form at Wimbledon again, should have done much better in 94 and 97 in particular
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Although that’s an impressive h2h, you can’t really use that against Zverev as the latter never got to play Sampras
 
Lleytonstation said:
Idk, 5 more masters and 1 more YEC is pretty big. Plus, Zverev gold is in singles... not the same (unless I am defending Fed).
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Stich has the GSC in 1992 so it evens out with the YEC. Olympic Gold didn’t have the same status in his time so I wouldn’t hold it against him as I wouldn’t hold lack of DC success against Zed. Stich is definitely ahead at the moment due to the actual slam win, however, if Zed wins a slam he is statistically better. Would have an additional final and way more semis at slams as well as 5 more masters.
 
merwy said:
Although that’s an impressive h2h, you can’t really use that against Zverev as the latter never got to play Sampras
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Two of his wins were at WTC which is close to an Exho and at slams he is 0-1 against Pete. Impressive yea, but the only legit positive H2H against Pete with an okayish amount of matches is Krajicek’s.
 
GuyForget said:
Shame Stich was never in great form at Wimbledon again, should have done much better in 94 and 97 in particular
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In 94 he lost in the first round so I agree, but why 97? He reached the semi here (his second best result). Sure his loss against Pioline was a little unnecessary.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
In 94 he lost in the first round so I agree, but why 97? He reached the semi here (his second best result). Sure his loss against Pioline was a little unnecessary.
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I can see thinking with his draw he should have made the final and he has a pretty good record overall against Sampras. Despite that latter point would still back Sampras in a Wimbledon final vs a guy with a 1-2 slam final record.
 
insideoutforehanders said:
I can see thinking with his draw he should have made the final and he has a pretty good record overall against Sampras. Despite that latter point would still back Sampras in a Wimbledon final vs a guy with a 1-2 slam final record.
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Yeah as I said in another post. I am sceptical on the validity of Stich’s record against Pete anyways. In a Wimbledon final I can’t see Stich (or anyone) beating Pete.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Yeah as I said in another post. I am sceptical on the validity of Stich’s record against Pete anyways. In a Wimbledon final I can’t see Stich (or anyone) beating Pete.
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I can see your skepticism, but Stich did win the second and third biggest matches they played, with both being BO5 affairs: 1993 WTF final and 1992 Grand Slam Cup SF. And while you can't quite compare Sampras getting up for a WTF final to him getting up for a Wimbledon final, he was 5-0 in WTF finals outside the loss to Stich.
 
buscemi said:
I can see your skepticism, but Stich did win the second and third biggest matches they played, with both being BO5 affairs: 1993 WTF final and 1992 Grand Slam Cup SF. And while you can't quite compare Sampras getting up for a WTF final to him getting up for a Wimbledon final, he was 5-0 in WTF finals outside the loss to Stich.
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True, but Pete was a mental giant in Wimbledon finals, and Stich somewhat a head case (not at all in his Wimbledon final but in slam finals overall). There sole Wimbledon meeting was a straight set affair for Pete and that was pre-prime Pete vs defending champion Stich. In 1997 I really doubt he would be good enough to beat the version of Pete who won 116 out of 118 service games. At YEC/GSC or carpet in general, Pete was way more inconsistent than on grass (despite his 5-1 in YEC finals).
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Sure and Marta is the best Brazilian football player ahead of Pele.
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There are a huge number of people on this forum who say slam count is everything. Graf dominated her field in a way Becker never did.

I can’t really answer your soccer question. Rugby is more my game, but at that I’d say McCaw is better than Pele.
 
kangaroo1973 said:
6 time slam winner underachieved? Bold
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Yes Becker was a great player. Added to his 6 slams was that he was the only player to ever win all 3 season end championships (WTF - atp season end championship, WCT Finals - WCT season end championship, Grand Slam Cup - ITF season end championship)
 
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timnz said:
Yes Becker was a great player. Added to his 6 slams was that he was the only player to win all 3 season end championships (WTF - atp season end championship, WCT Finals - WCT season end championship, Grand Slam Cup - ITF season end championship)
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Carpet BOAT.
 
adil1972 said:
If graf is 2nd then who is #1

And why she is 2nd
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Becker. Because you cannot compare men and women. The poster said best by the way. Had he said greatest you may be able to make a case for Graf as there is no clear definition. This being said, Becker was also more famous in Germany when both played.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
True, but Pete was a mental giant in Wimbledon finals, and Stich somewhat a head case (not at all in his Wimbledon final but in slam finals overall). There sole Wimbledon meeting was a straight set affair for Pete and that was pre-prime Pete vs defending champion Stich. In 1997 I really doubt he would be good enough to beat the version of Pete who won 116 out of 118 service games. At YEC/GSC or carpet in general, Pete was way more inconsistent than on grass (despite his 5-1 in YEC finals).
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I agree with the gist of your post, but that 92 QF by Pete vs Stich was arguably his best match at Wimbledon.
 
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