Who is the Third Best Clay Court Player Ever?

3rd greatest clay court player ever?

  • Lendl

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Rosewall

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Wilander

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Kuerten

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Vilas

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Muster

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Djokovic

    Votes: 12 52.2%

  • Federer

    Votes: 2 8.7%

  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    23
Drob said:
Nadal, Borg, Rosewall is correct. Here's the rest of top 20 more or less in order: Kuerten; Lendl; Cochet; Drobny; Laver; Tilden; Federer; Cramm; J.C. Ferrero; Trabert; Wilander; Lacoste; Djokovich; Muster; Vilas;
Brugera; Budge

Hoad; Courier; Orantes & Agassi awfully close. Gonzalez was better on clay than generally thought. Pietrangeli & Santana played in weak era. Hans Nusslein merits an honorable mention
Click to expand...

Drob, Nüsslein was stronger than your Drob(ny) even though Drobny is the man with most claycourt titles (always won against amateurs).

And you forgot Segura and Gimeno, two of the all-time great claycourters.

I also miss strong Nastase and old Wilding.
 
BobbyOne said:
jg, Can't remember this but yes, he COULD win it.
Click to expand...

Ok, maybe. But Fed could win four of them if there was no Nadal and 3 grass majors :). Or if he was a lefty. Lefties have the edge.

Laver can't win CYGS if he is a righty playing today with Nadal and where there are no 3 grass majors.
 
rosewallGOAT said:
No chance, his RG record is just too lacking comparative to other greats I am sorry to say. My choice would be Borg, 3rd best behind Nadal and Rosewall. 4th best would be Kuerten whe would have 5 or 6 French Opens if his hip didnt go gaga.
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Funny how you add French Opens to Kuerten's career but ignore Muster's troubles.
 
Segura & Gimeno

Love 'em both but the record belies their clay claims. Both did damage on pro tour but French Pro was played at Roland Garros from 1956 to'62 when Segura was still strong & he did not make a final. Gimeno's main clay title was '64 Geneva Gold Cup Trophy & Geneva &
Barcelona in '67. on the 1965 Trofeo Facis tour on clay he was only 11-7 I'm glad he won the '72 French but it was a much depleted field that year. Drob beat Sedgman for one of his two French and a British Hardcourt and Hoad for The Italian in '53 and at the British Hardcourts in '57 when Hoad was at peak and Drob 36 years old. I don't think you'd consider them "amateurs". 3 Italians, a couple of Monte Carlo and German championships and probably 80 or so clay titles. I would say that in Drob's heyday The amateurs were equal of pros because of depth and some great players. after 1956-57 the pros really became superior. But thanks - I'm sure my list could be improved a bit.
 
Borg
Kuerten
Rosewall
....

ps: yes... i dont include players that are from WADA ground zero federations!!!
 
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Drob, Nüsslein was stronger than your Drob(ny) even though Drobny is the man with most claycourt titles (always won against amateurs).

And you forgot Segura and Gimeno, two of the all-time great claycourters.

I also miss strong Nastase and old Wilding.
23259]

Love 'em both but the record belies their clay claims. Both did damage on pro tour but French Pro was played at Roland Garros from 1956 to'62 when Segura was still strong & he did not make a final. Gimeno's main clay title was '64 Geneva Gold Cup Trophy & Geneva &
Barcelona in '67. on the 1965 Trofeo Facis tour on clay he was only 11-7 I'm glad he won the '72 French but it was a much depleted field that year. Drob beat Sedgman for one of his two French and a British Hardcourt and Hoad for The Italian in '53 and at the British Hardcourts in '57 when Hoad was at peak and Drob 36 years old. I don't think you'd consider them "amateurs". 3 Italians, a couple of Monte Carlo and German championships and probably 80 or so clay titles. I would say that in Drob's heyday The amateurs were equal of pros because of depth and some great players. after 1956-57 the pros really became superior. But thanks - I'm sure my list could be improved a bit.[/QUOTE]
 
Drob said:
Love 'em both but the record belies their clay claims. Both did damage on pro tour but French Pro was played at Roland Garros from 1956 to'62 when Segura was still strong & he did not make a final. Gimeno's main clay title was '64 Geneva Gold Cup Trophy & Geneva &
Barcelona in '67. on the 1965 Trofeo Facis tour on clay he was only 11-7 I'm glad he won the '72 French but it was a much depleted field that year. Drob beat Sedgman for one of his two French and a British Hardcourt and Hoad for The Italian in '53 and at the British Hardcourts in '57 when Hoad was at peak and Drob 36 years old. I don't think you'd consider them "amateurs". 3 Italians, a couple of Monte Carlo and German championships and probably 80 or so clay titles. I would say that in Drob's heyday The amateurs were equal of pros because of depth and some great players. after 1956-57 the pros really became superior. But thanks - I'm sure my list could be improved a bit.
Click to expand...

Drob, I must contradict.

In 1965 there was no Trofeo Facis, as far as I know.

Segura was past his prime in the end-1950s. He won the 1950 US Pro on clay beating Kramer.

Gimeno reached final of 1962 French Pro. His greatest wins on clay were the 1966 Barcelona and Oklahoma claycourt events both labbeled the World Pro championships.

In the early 1950s the pros were at least as good as the amateurs even on clay: Kramer, Gonzalez, Segura...
 
Cross posted from different thread

If the most dominate court-specific tennis player ever (Nadal on clay) didn't exist, Federer may have won the FO:

2005
2006
2007
2008
2009 (did win)
2011

6 FO titles, plus several titles in Monte Carlo, Rome, and Madrid!

There's a good argument to be made (I haven't studied enough to be confident) that Federer is the 3rd best clay-court player ever, behind only Nadal and Borg.

Which would mean Federer is:

1. The best or second best player ever on grass (probably best)
2. The best or second best player ever on hard court (probably best)
3. The third-to-sixth (?) best player ever on clay

That's unreal.

----

The lack of creative thinking on this forum is frustrating.

A player's "objective" results are the function of three things:

1. Ability
2. Opponents' ability
3. Luck

A player can only control one of those three things.

To think about this stuff, you have to think creatively and imagine different scenarios, often extreme or absurd scenarios.

Let's imagine the multiverse exists and there are an infinite number of different universes.

In one universe, the last 10 years of tennis are exactly the same. All the players are the same, the tournaments, etc. The only difference is that Superman exists and Superman likes to play professional tennis. In this universe, Rafael Nadal probably loses to Superman in the 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2012 finals. He also loses to Superman every year at Monte Carlo, Rome, Madrid, and Barcelona.

Nadal, who is the exact same player in this universe, would be considered by many on this forum to be a good but not great clay player.

In that universe, Superman would have a 100% winning record at Roland Garros. In this universe, Nadal has 98.3% winning record at Roland Garros. When healthy, both Nadal and Superman win 100% of the time at Roland Garros.

Just like it's stupid to conclude that Nadal isn't great on clay because he would always lose to Superman, it's almost as stupid to discount Federer's abilities on clay because he always loses to Nadal.

Similar, in our third similar universe, imagine everything is the same, but a virus is unleashes that kills off the top 500 players on the ATP tour. The only player immune is Andy Roddick. Roddick uses this opportunity to win 10 straight FO titles. This board would flip out and declare that Roddick is the greatest clay court player ever.

C'mon, people. Context matters just as much as a player's ability.
 
BobbyOne said:
Drob, I must contradict.

In 1965 there was no Trofeo Facis, as far as I know.

Segura was past his prime in the end-1950s. He won the 1950 US Pro on clay beating Kramer.

Gimeno reached final of 1962 French Pro. His greatest wins on clay were the 1966 Barcelona and Oklahoma claycourt events both labbeled the World Pro championships.

In the early 1950s the pros were at least as good as the amateurs even on clay: Kramer, Gonzalez, Segura...
Click to expand...

Thanks. Right about the Facis - it was '64. And I had missed the detail on the '50 US Pro - it was usually at Forest Hills or Cleveland Arena in those days. But on Segoo's peak years I disagree. 1957 Australian Pro title, 4-2 at Masters Pro; 1958 Masters Pro title w 6-0 record against all the best and played Trabert even on the Gonzalez-Hoad tour; 1960 5 set Wembley final and creditable record on 4-man tour that included Gonzalez and Rosewall; 1962 three tournament wins including Cannes, finalist at US Pro and Zurich and 5 set semi at Wembley. So I think his French Pro record is telling. As much as I like Segura and Gimeno they are not that close - somewhere below 25th. If you put them in top 20 I gather you'd chuck Drobny. Who else? And do you put them above Hoad, Courier, Orantes, Agassi and Nusslein also?
 
How many clay court titles would Federer own if Nadal hadn't been around?

I'd say 4-5 French Opens and at least 7 MS 1000s.

Djokovic isn't too far behind Federer either. The likes of Kuerten never had to play the clay GOAT!
 
Drob said:
Thanks. Right about the Facis - it was '64. And I had missed the detail on the '50 US Pro - it was usually at Forest Hills or Cleveland Arena in those days. But on Segoo's peak years I disagree. 1957 Australian Pro title, 4-2 at Masters Pro; 1958 Masters Pro title w 6-0 record against all the best and played Trabert even on the Gonzalez-Hoad tour; 1960 5 set Wembley final and creditable record on 4-man tour that included Gonzalez and Rosewall; 1962 three tournament wins including Cannes, finalist at US Pro and Zurich and 5 set semi at Wembley. So I think his French Pro record is telling. As much as I like Segura and Gimeno they are not that close - somewhere below 25th. If you put them in top 20 I gather you'd chuck Drobny. Who else? And do you put them above Hoad, Courier, Orantes, Agassi and Nusslein also?
Click to expand...

Drob, Even though I'm glad that you appreciate old Drob you should be aware that Drobny was always "only" an amateur. How strong the pros were can you see at Ayala's defeat to 40 years old Segura at the French Pro. Ayala was one of the strongest amateurs on clay in 1961, turned pro and immediately lost to old Segoo. On the other hand you can't take Segura's great achievements as a grandpa (by the way, never respected by NatF) as proof that he was in his peak years anymore. No player in history had his peak or even prime after 37,38.

Segura lost to Rosewall in four sets at the 1960 Wembley.

Pancho's peak years were 1950 to 1954.

Segura lost (narrowly) to Trabert in 1958. I think he would have beaten him in a 1954 tour.

Yes, I put Segura and Gimeno (the latter had many wins on clay against Laver and Rosewall in their prime) above Hoad, Courier and Nüsslein and so on.

I don't put them into the top Twenty: I put them into the Top Ten! Both tied on 7th place...

Imagine French Pro championships in 1950 to 1955...

Imagine Gimeno in a non-Laver and Rosewall era...
 
Last edited:
His name it is Rafael Nadal no? Prospered in a weak clay era.

Sounds silly, doesn't it. And yet we do hear a lot of this kind of stuff.
 
Rosewall, Borg, and Nadal are clearly the three greatest clay court players ever. You could write book discussing the clay court strengths of those three greats.
 
Segura and Gimeno

Bobby One:


I know you like Segura and Gimeno. I have Segura and Sedgman almost equal in matches played through 1958, with each beating the other in big tournaments. I have Segura equal with Hoad in head to head in Hoad's first couple of years but losing by a 2-1 margin to Muscles during this time. Is that about right to your knowledge. What about with Trabert?

Gimeno - I have him beating Rosewall and Rocket back-to-back in the same tournament eight times. In the pro years, it looks like he won about one-third of the time against Laver, but never in a Pro Slam or other huge event, and beat Rosewall between one-third and 40 percent of the time not counting the 1963 World Championship Series where it looks like The Little Master carved him up good. These include three Gimeno victories over Rosewall at a Pro Slam and the '69 Australian. Do you concur with these estimates? What about his records against them in the Open Era? I figure as many as 40 total tiles for Andres, amateur, pro and Open (not counting 4-man tournaments). What's your estimate for Segura?
 
Borg is the 3rd best clay courter ever. Rosewall is my choice for 2nd best clay courter ever above Borg. Had there been Open Era tennis all along he would have 9 or 10 French Opens today and there still be debate who is clay GOAT between him and Nadal even.
 
merwy said:
Well definitely not Federer!!


He's already second
Click to expand...
Dafuq-You-Just-Say-Sugar-Daily.jpg
 
1. Nadal
2. Rosewall
3. Borg
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Lacoste
8. Kuerten
9. Wilander
10. Laver

Would be my top 10 all time on clay
 
I'm always disinclined to rank Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales etc too highly, simply because the game has changed so much and become so much faster and more physical. But clay isn't that much faster than with wooden racquets and 6 majors is impressive, so I'll go with Rosewall.
 
firepanda said:
I'm always disinclined to rank Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales etc too highly, simply because the game has changed so much and become so much faster and more physical. But clay isn't that much faster than with wooden racquets and 6 majors is impressive, so I'll go with Rosewall.
Click to expand...

firepanda, Yes, especially if we consider that Rosewall could not play several clay majors in his prime: 1957, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1970, 1971.

From 1963 to 1967 French Pro was played on fast wood. Muscles won it 4 times though.
 
Nadalgaenger said:
Nadal and Borg are obvious choices for the top two spots (you can still argue for Borg being best). Who is the third best of all time?

I don't know much about tennis history before the Fedal era but you can make a decent argument for Federer, no? Had he not played prime Rafa in 5 RG matches he might have 6 RG titles (realistically he would have had 3-4)

Other candidates might be Lendl, Wilander, and even Djokovic (who has been Fed's equal on clay).

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

This guy knows his tennis history.
 
conway said:
Borg is the 3rd best clay courter ever. Rosewall is my choice for 2nd best clay courter ever above Borg. Had there been Open Era tennis all along he would have 9 or 10 French Opens today and there still be debate who is clay GOAT between him and Nadal even.
Click to expand...

And what if Borg played the FO in 1977 and played until he was 30 e.g. another 5 (?) FO's?

Rosewall would not be so dominant as Nadal so there would not be a debate IMO.
 
NatF said:
And what if Borg played the FO in 1977 and played until he was 30 e.g. another 5 (?) FO's?

Rosewall would not be so dominant as Nadal so there would not be a debate IMO.
Click to expand...

Your point on Borg is not the same as he chose to retire, and he chose to not play RG events he was fully capable to enter. Back in Rosewall's era all great players went pro after a few greats years and were barred from playing official slam events.

Even more importantly though in Borg's case we are evaluating (apart from 1977) periods of time he wasn't even playing tennis (or playing a couple tournaments of very poor tennis like 82 and early 83). So there is no basis he was playing at the level he would have won French Opens apart from 77, as he wasn't even an active player. We can say looking at Rosewall's pro results on clay, and his clay dominance for over a decade as a pro, combined with the French Opens he already won as an Open Era player, that he would likely be in the range of 9 or 10 French Opens, or that he was the best clay courter in the world (not speculating if he was playing tournaments against the best in the world like Borg, as Rosewall actually was) for about 10 different years.
 
conway said:
Your point on Borg is not the same as he chose to retire, and he chose to not play RG events he was fully capable to enter. Back in Rosewall's era all great players went pro after a few greats years and were barred from playing official slam events.

Even more importantly though in Borg's case we are evaluating (apart from 1977) periods of time he wasn't even playing tennis (or playing a couple tournaments of very poor tennis like 82 and early 83). So there is no basis he was playing at the level he would have won French Opens apart from 77, as he wasn't even an active player. We can say looking at Rosewall's pro results on clay, and his clay dominance for over a decade as a pro, combined with the French Opens he already won as an Open Era player, that he would likely be in the range of 9 or 10 French Opens, or that he was the best clay courter in the world (not speculating if he was playing tournaments against the best in the world like Borg, as Rosewall actually was) for about 10 different years.
Click to expand...

IIRC Borg practiced with Wilander before the 1982 FO and Wilander couldn't win a set. I think he'd be the clear favorite in 1982 and would likely get a couple more.

I don't think Rosewall has as much game as Borg did, Borg is more consistent, faster, better stamina etc...plus he has spades more power. I think Borg is a better clay courter. Even more so for Nadal.
 
Either way that you could even make a real argument for Rosewall to be 2nd best, there is no way he isn't atleast 3rd best. The undisputed top 3 are Nadal (undisputed #1), Borg, and Rosewall, so this topic is a no starter.
 
timnz said:
Can I encourage you to look at this thread. It has been going for 4 years now, about the list of top clay court players of all time

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=261831

I like hoodjem list from that thread . I think though that Hans Nüsslein and Karel Koželuh should be a lot higher and perhaps Jaroslav Drobný too. Here is his top 10

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver

In that thread Rosewall often came up as the number 3 clay court player with other people as well. He had 6 Major Wins at Roland Garros - (French Amateur 1953, French Open in 1968 + 4 French Pro wins at Roland Garros on Clay)
Click to expand...

This is the best list I have seen. I don't know anything about Wilding as I have not studied anyone pre-WWI, but I'll assume that is a fair placing for him as I agree 100% with all of the other spots.

Edit:
My own top 10 (post-WWI) would be:
1)Nadal
2)Borg
3)Rosewall
4)Cochet
5)Lendl
6)Wilander
7)Lacoste
8)Kuerten
9)Laver
10)Vilas

top 10 (open-era only):
1)Nadal
2)Borg
3)Lendl
4)Wilander
5)Kuerten
6)Vilas
7)Federer
8)Bruguera
9)Courier
10)Orantes
 
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That the top 9 clay courters of all time are Nadal, Borg, Rosewall, Cochet, Lacoste, Wilding, Wilander, Lendl, and Kuerten in some order is pretty easy. The only question would be who is #10 to round out the top 10. It could be Laver, but there are atleast 5 or 6 others you could pick too (and Federer isn't one of them IMO, although he could be argued top 20 or top 15 all time on clay).
 
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