Who ranks higher all time- Steffi Graf or Chris Evert
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julesb
Banned
No contest. Evert is the 3rd greatest player ever after Seles and Navratilova. Graf is about the 11th greatest player ever. If they were in their primes together Evert would dominate Graf on all surfaces. Graf didnt even get her first win over Evert until Evert was 31, how pathetic is that.
Lionheart392
Professional
Erm, no she's not.
And Graf may not have got her first win over Evert until Evert was 31, but you could reverse that theory and say that Evert could only beat Steffi when she was a slamless 16 year old who was not yet at her prime. They never faced each other when they were both at their peak so that theory is totally irrelevant here.
Anyways they're both legends, that's for sure, but I'm gonna give this one to Steffi.
julesb
Banned
Graf's prime started at 16. Evert's prime ended at about 27. Evert was 4 years past her prime and still beating Graf in Graf's prime in 1986.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
It depends on what you value with these two. Both have strengths in there corners.
Graf won at least 4 of each major, 22 total and had the most weeks at number 1 and had 3 years(?) where she won at least 3 majors in a year as well as the golden slam. Plus she made the finals of 9 slams in a row at point (may be wrong on that one).
Evert won at least one slam a year for 13 straight years, a record 7 at the French, a record 125 clay court win streak, made it to the semi's of every slam from her debut up until 1983, plus the highest Open era win %.
Both are all time greats and both have numbers that could be made for them to be ranked over each other. Hard to choose, depending on what you value you could vote for either.
Graf won at least 4 of each major, 22 total and had the most weeks at number 1 and had 3 years(?) where she won at least 3 majors in a year as well as the golden slam. Plus she made the finals of 9 slams in a row at point (may be wrong on that one).
Evert won at least one slam a year for 13 straight years, a record 7 at the French, a record 125 clay court win streak, made it to the semi's of every slam from her debut up until 1983, plus the highest Open era win %.
Both are all time greats and both have numbers that could be made for them to be ranked over each other. Hard to choose, depending on what you value you could vote for either.
Lionheart392
Professional
Graf was not in her prime in 1986 and you know it. She wasn't even in her prime yet in 1987 when she won a slam and was runner-up at 2. Let's say Graf was in her prime in 1988, she won all 4 slams. If she was also in her prime in 1986, why didn't reach a single slam final? Because the competition was just so much better in 1986? Of course not. Jesus. I know I shouldn't feed the troll so sorry to the OP. :roll:
much as I admire the accomplishments of Evert, Much as I think she is underappreciated by many, I still recognize that Graf is unique. She beat just about everybody with equal ability on all surfaces in all the slams. I put her number one. I do not take slams away or minimize their importance, because a single player did not play the event, no matter how important the player is! Evert was all kinds of wonderful, but 22 slams divided so equally on hard, grass and clay courts says number one.
julesb
Banned
Yes the field in 1986 was miles better than 1988 indeed. I cant believe anyone finds that concept strange. 1987 was weaker than 1986 but stronger than 1988.
In 1986 you had Navratilova still in her prime, Evert old but playing some really good tennis still, Mandlikova still in her prime. By 1988 you had Navratilova past her prime, Evert almost retired and a shadow of her old self, Mandlikova burnt out totally and almost retired at a much earlier age too.
Graf in 1986 and 1987 was actually playing good enough tennis to possibly win all 5 slam events she played though. She crushed Evert and Navratilova both on clay early in 1986, she should have beaten Martina in the U.S Open semis where she wasted 3 match points, she crushed Martina early that year on hard courts. However when it came to the big events she proved to be a choker, and won only 1 of the 5 and even that she was lucky to win. First off blowing a big lead in the quarterfinals to fast court specialist Mandlikova at the 86 French which she had been favored to win. Choking away 3 match points to Navratilova in the 86 U.S Open semis like I said. Playing her worst 2 matches of the years in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals of 1987 vs Navratilova. Even being nervous and far below her early 1987 form at the French where she was lucky to beat Sabatini in the semis and Navratilova in the final where her subpar play led to those women serving for the match vs her. That is the thing with Graf. Yes she is a great player but faced with great competition in their primes like Navratilova, Evert, Seles in the early 90s, she folds like a cheap suit under the pressure of the biggest matches, often performing below what she does in smaller events. That is why she needs to be playing women in their 30s or have her biggest rival stabbed to win more than 1 slam a year. Otherwise with real competition in the big events she chokes under the pressure.
Lionheart392
Professional
You can't underestimate the importance of mentality in tennis. It forms a huge part of the game and Steffi in my opinion is one of the mentally toughest players of all time. Let's say she was physically in her prime in 1986, the fact that her mental strength wasn't fully developed yet is enough for me to say that she was not yet in her prime. But I don't believe Steffi was at her best in either aspect in 1986. Great, but nowhere near her peak.
julesb
Banned
Steffi is not one of the mentally strongest players of all time. If she was she wouldnt have fared and played so much more poorly vs Martina in big events in 1986 and 1987 compared to how she did when they played in smaller tournaments. She would not have done so poorly vs Seles in big matches from 1990 to 1993. She would not have had so much trouble with Sanchez Vicario in slam events compared to how relatively easy she had it with her in smaller tournaments. These are not signs of one of the mentally toughest players ever.
Lionheart392
Professional
Well as for 1986 and 1987, I've already said that I believe she had not fully developed mentally yet. As for the early 90s, you have a point. But just as you can claim that Monica's career was affected by the stabbing, Steffi had a very emotional time during the whole tax scandal with her controlling father that could easily have impacted her play. Steffi of 1988 won the golden slam and many players would've choked that opportunity away, you can't do that if you're not mentally tough. And the Steffi of 1995-6, the emotional issues seemed to be over, and she once again regained her mental toughness. No player is perfect but I do regard Graf as extremely clutch.
cadillac303
New User
Steffi was so dominating against her opponents. Steffi over Evert.
Tennis Dunce
Semi-Pro
In my opinion Graf ranks higher then Evert for several reasons. Graf won more majors and she played in a stronger era. Another area where Graf was an overall better player was because she never really had that one person who would continually beat her as Evert did with Navratilova. Not only this but I personally enjoyed Graf's game, it kind of reminded me of Federer.
julesb
Banned
So you really prime Navratilova from 1982-1987 would not have dominated Graf the same way she dominated Evert? If anything it would be even easier for prime Martina vs Graf. She could have just come in off that piece of poop backhand of Graf's and gotten a free easy volley nearly every time. Graf is lucky there were hardly any serve/volleyers who exploited that silly nothing backhand of hers.
julesb
Banned
I can just picture a prime Navratilova vs Graf now. Serve to the backhand, plop easy floaty backhand return for a volley putaway. Come in off any Graf second serve to the backhand, slam, easy volley putaway off floaty backhand. Come in off any Graf short ball, bam, easy volley putaway off yet another floaty backhand pass try. How the heck do you win vs the greatest volleyer in history by trying to pass with a freaking slice backhand, LOL!
Graf always kind of had a funky game. She used the slice backhand about 80% of the time and she bounced around the court. As I have already said Graf was an overall better player then Evert and she is actually 1-0 in grand slam finals, she beat her in the 1988 Australian Open. As for Graf versus Navratilova, Graf beat her an astonishing 4 times in grand slam finals! So in that regard Graf may have been a better player.
cadillac303
New User
julesb
Banned
A lob is a nice changeup but if she is relying on the lob as her only true option point after point she is in trouble. Eventually Navratilova will start expecting a lob and just be getting ready for it in advance in this case.
380pistol
Banned
Obviously you were suffering from temporary blindness when this occurred then....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZKWtvG5Rmw&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXYBhSsk_XE&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lngANeKBzXU&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7IxrKnzvMk&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_6Y3L1-tVY&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNhPqvgM52c&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7SRbfFgfFs&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg-npl4Kjcs&fmt=18
Now that we've cleared that up we can move on....
The answer is simple.....
Stephanie Maria Graf.
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Evert, because she had stronger competition. She and Martina played each other in 13 straight GS finals. Imagine if Evert hadn't had Martina to go through - I can think of 6 Slams she would have won right off the bat (78 Wimbledon, 79 Wimbledon, 82 Wimbledon, 83 French, 83 US Open, 84 US Open). Graf had good competition, but not a rival of the caliber that Martina and Chris had. That's why I put Martina at 1 and Chris at 2 in the Women's GOAT, with Steffi 3.
Doesn't matter. No one wants to be drowned in cheese.
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Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
Why did you start it in the first place then, you could have expected it to be like this, you can't have a normal debate when you have Graf in your poll.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Well said.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
I agree with CEvertFan on the above post. Very well stated.
egn
Hall of Fame
Evert. She was a dominate force for 13 years and her rival was arguably another one of the greatest women of all time and was there for her whole career. I love Graf dearly but she managed only 4 more slams than Evert and had a good period of time without a major rival as Seles was sadly stabbed. Evert had longevity and to this date holds a 90% winning record in matches. Besides only on 4 occasions did she exit prior to semifinals in slams. Graf is phenomenal but Evert played against most of the best and managed to be so consistent, so strong for such a long period of time. For 12 years she was ranked 2 or above She was in the top 3 for 15 years and was a top 10 player for 19 straight years.
Jules, you're such a dear!
I do love how you assign Graf's "prime" beginning at age 16, which was June 1985....when Steffi wasn't even ranked in the top 10!
And if it was pathetic that Steffi didn't beat Chris until she was 31, remind me how old Chris was when Mons finally beat her? I believe Chris was basically kicked off the tour before she finally scraped by Chris, aged 34!!
Jules darling.....if it was so "easy" to beat Steffi and her slice backhand.....then why didn't Mons do it more often? Why couldn't so many of the women beat her more often?
And since you only want to count big matches, why couldn't Martina beat Steffi more often in French, Wimbledon and US Open finals? I believe the record for major finals is 4-2 in Steffi's advantage. Throw in VS Championsip finals, and Steffi still leads 5-3.
grafselesfan
Banned
Seles was only 15 when she beat Chris on clay. I would expect even a 34 year old to have a typical edge on a 15 year who is seriously lacking the physical strength or experience anywhere near a women yet.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
And a few months later Evert gave her a major beat down 6-0, 6-2 at the US Open.
If we go by your reasoning then, Graf should have easily beaten Davenport in the '99 Wimbledon final when she had only just turned 30 and was playing on her best surface.
You'll probably disagree though only because it's GRAF we're talking about.
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grafselesfan
Banned
Davenport was a 23 year old at her absolute career peak, not a 15 year old at the time of the Wimbledon final. Thus your comparision makes no sense. Or are you now going to suggest there should be a bigger difference between a 23 year old and a 15 year old than between a 30 year and a 34 year old. On top of all that Evert at 34 hadnt gone through 3 years of such serious injuries like Graf that forced her to play her final few years part time and likely shortened her career and certainly her championship playing years.
A 34 year old women while not prime still should have the advantage over a skinny 15 year old girl with nowhere near the strength and maturity of a women yet. I would certainly expect Graf at 34, assuming she stayed reasonably healthy, to beat some up and coming future great 15 year old most times.
You will probably disagree as it is Evert who is involved. I am equally as big a fan of Seles as I am of Graf anyway.
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Neither were in their primes in 89, and Seles' win was in some rubbish run of the mill tournament that Evert probably didn't care about at that point in her career. Evert beat her easily in the US Open that year, but Seles was so young there isn't really much to draw from any of their matches.
Yeah, she deserves all sorts of credit for amassing a record based on playing against players who were either flakes (Goolagong) over the hill and focussing on things apart from playing (King) or hadn't hit their peak (Navratilova). The minute she was faced with tough opposition (a mature Navratilova) she stopped winning.
Evert is the most overrated player in the history of tennis. If she hadn't been American she'd never have received half the attention she did and if she'd come along either ten years earlier or ten years later she'd be little more than a footnote now.
The guys who think Evert, as a player, was anything more than a second-tier 'great' are confusing her tennis ability with her cultural significance.
To answer the OP's question - Graf ranks so far ahead of Evert that its pointless to even suggest they're on the same scale.
suwanee4712
Professional
I have Steffi as my all time #2 and Chris #3. But when I think about it, perhaps the biggest reason why I and maybe others feel that way is in how Steffi dominated her opponents and how Evert dominated hers. Graf did so much more forcefully. But there's also a huge age difference between the two. So even though their two careers intersected, they are very much products of different eras.
As someone who grew up at a time when no one but no one questioned Chris' place in history, it's a bit disturbing that she is indeed underated today. People have forgotten how she dissected opponents, while players like Graf and Seles bludgeoned them.
While Steffi was very consistent herself, Chris' consistency over a 19 year period of time is unmatched. At least one grand slam title for 13 consecutive years. And she failed to reach the SF of a grand slam event only 4 times in her entire career.
Another key difference is that Steffi's matches almost always depended on the way that she played, not her opponent. The match was always in her hands except against a great net rusher like Martina who forced the action even more than Steffi did. Whereas Chris remained solid at her end of the court and patiently waited to pounce on her opponents' mistakes. She also had a way of dangling her opponents' weaknesses in their faces almost mercilessly.
So which is better? I can't wholeheartedly say one way or another. The two magnificently achieved the same results.
As someone who grew up at a time when no one but no one questioned Chris' place in history, it's a bit disturbing that she is indeed underated today. People have forgotten how she dissected opponents, while players like Graf and Seles bludgeoned them.
While Steffi was very consistent herself, Chris' consistency over a 19 year period of time is unmatched. At least one grand slam title for 13 consecutive years. And she failed to reach the SF of a grand slam event only 4 times in her entire career.
Another key difference is that Steffi's matches almost always depended on the way that she played, not her opponent. The match was always in her hands except against a great net rusher like Martina who forced the action even more than Steffi did. Whereas Chris remained solid at her end of the court and patiently waited to pounce on her opponents' mistakes. She also had a way of dangling her opponents' weaknesses in their faces almost mercilessly.
So which is better? I can't wholeheartedly say one way or another. The two magnificently achieved the same results.
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Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
I don't think Chris is underrated. She may be even a better tennisplayer than Steffi for some people. As I think Gabriela and Martina Navratilova are better tennistalents (e.g what they could do with the ball), but Steffi was the best athlete and that makes her a treat and a threath in all eras. Do women today hit harder, sure; stronger bodies, rackets. Does anyone move better than Steffi, no one, not even Federer. That's why I think she is better and ranks higher.
380pistol
Banned
Heard of Borg?? Steffi was an excellent mover, but again have you heard of Borg??
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
I am sorry, my right ear is not that good. Borg? Ofcourse:
The Borg are a fictional pseudo-race of cybernetic organisms depicted in the Star Trek franchise. The Borg play major roles in The Next Generation and Voyager television series, primarily as an invasion threat to the United Federation of Planets and the means of return to the Alpha Quadrant for isolated Federation starship Voyager, respectively. The Borg have become a symbol in popular culture for any juggernaut against whom "resistance is futile".
But what the hell has that got to do with the super athlete Graf, again what the hell has that got to do with Graf?
grafselesfan
Banned
I agree with you. I think people are missing that my post was in defense of Seles in response to a poster who mentioned her not beating Evert until she was 34 years old, while not even mentioning Seles herself was 15 years old at the time. I agree nothing can be drawn from their matches as both were so far from their primes anyway. Essentialy evidence of how Seles and Evert matchup is non existant either way.
grafselesfan
Banned
Just curious, what would your top 10 women of all time be in order. I am just curious how far you have Evert down based on your comments.
grafrules
Banned
I want to vote Graf based on partiality but I am not sure who to vote for. Given the factors I usually determine to pick who is greater all time though it is probably Evert by a hair.
Longevity- Evert over Graf
Consistency- Evert over Graf
Dominance- Graf over Evert
Versatility- Graf over Evert
Strength of competition- Evert over Graf
Longevity- Evert over Graf
Consistency- Evert over Graf
Dominance- Graf over Evert
Versatility- Graf over Evert
Strength of competition- Evert over Graf
egn
Hall of Fame
Really man she is the worst 18 GS 5 time year end number 1 player ever.
Flakey Goolagong managed 7 GS of her own and played Evert tough.
King not fully focused on tennis was a handful for greats like Court and Navratilova as well. She also had to deal with Tracy Austin, Mandilikova, Turnbull, Court, Shriver, Jagear, Sukova. You have to be kidding me. I can't think of more than 5 players who I would give a mention to ahead of Evert. Evert won 90 percent of matches she played.
julesb
Banned
Evert cant be the most overrated player of all time when that title is already held by Steffi Graf. If you think Evert's competition was weak than what do you make of Graf's. Winning a bunch of slams in the late 80s vs two women already in their 30s- Navratilova and Evert. Then getting her butt slammed in for a couple years when Seles arrived, then winning a bunch more slams once Seles was gone. Her biggest career rivals were 30s Navratilova, knifed in the back Seles, Sanchez Vicario who won only 1 major before the Seles stabbing, and Sabatini who won only 1 major perod.
Jules my dear....if Graf's competiton was so wickedly weak, then pray tell, remind me exactly who Mons' competition was? If Steffi was beating grannies and nobodies, and Graf herself was worthless, just who, and I do mean who was Mons beating?
Inquiring minds wanna know Jules!!!
julesb
Banned
Graf is still around the 10th or 11th best player all time which also makes her the most overrated all time just because most seem to think she is the 1st or 2nd best female player of all time. So Seles still had a top 10 or 11 player all time in Graf and Sabatini playing her best tennis ever (and dominating Graf those few years I might add, too bad she didnt play like that when Graf was on top instead of Seles). Players like an old Navratilova and Sanchez Vicario who were Graf's #1 rivals in the late 80s (old Martina) and mid 90s (Sanchez) were Monica's 3rd and 4th biggest rivals instead, a title when Graf dominated was held by people like Sukova and Martinez.
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