Who was better in the HC slams: Thiem in 2020 or Federer in 2006?

[Oceans II]

Who was better in the HC slams: Thiem in 2020 or Federer in 2006?

For me Thiem was significantly better in AO 20. It needed peak Djokovic 5 sets to beat him in an all time classic. Thiem had mowed through Nadal, Zverev and Monfils before that.
Again better in USO 20 as well. Thiem had mowed through Medvedev, Auger-Aliassime and Cilic.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Haha, nice one. No way Timmyboi can compare with Fedr level-wise though.

 

[RS]

AO would be a good battle but I think Fed gets through it still. USO has to be Fed.

 

[SpinWizard]

Thiem was more impressive and had better form than Fed at AO. But US Open is no contest. Fed played absolutely sublime tennis. Perfect movement, goat fearhand and surprisingly great backhand.

 

[Krish872007]

Agreed with the others above - AO is somewhat debatable as Thiem did play well and was physically strong. Fed still had couple of lingering issues from the injury at the end of the 2005 season and was a little bit up & down (though his top level was still there). If they were to face off I would still back RF, just.
At the US Open, Fed by a landslide. One of his very best forms at that tournament with all areas of the game working for the most part. Thiem was fine up to the QFs, looked great against Med but utterly horrible in the final.

 

[Kralingen]

relative or absolute level?

 

[StrongRule]

Does anyone really think 2020 Djokovic beats 2006 Federer in AO?

 

[Cabeza del Demonio]

Who was better in the HC slams: Thiem in 2020 or Federer in 2006?

For me Thiem was significantly better in AO 20. It needed peak Djokovic 5 sets to beat him in an all time classic. Thiem had mowed through Nadal, Zverev and Monfils before that.
Again better in USO 20 as well. Thiem had mowed through Medvedev, Auger-Aliassime and Cilic.

No contest, lol. Thiem had an amazing 2020 but Federer in his prime was just built different. Mostly agree with everyone here that Federer would clean up at USO. The level he showed there was pretty close to unbeatable. One only needs look at Blake and Davydenko's reactions when they were thrown in the ring with him.
Even at AO I think we're underrating Fed's dominance. A lot has been said about how below-par he was that year, and it's true. But he still had the mental factor (remember he was 6-0 in major finals, made it 7-0 after winning it) to tough it out against underdogs who thought they could.
Ultimately I think Thiem would fare about the same as Baghdatis did - that is, close but no cigar. Baghdatis had some impressive wins against Roddick and Nalbandian coming in, had the crowd behind him and had Federer down a set and nearly a double break in the 2nd. Ultimately Federer's experience and confidence won out against Baghdatis's youthful exuberance, which is probably how it would've played out against Thiem.

Don't think Thiem would crash and burn as dramatically after the 2nd set though. I'd expect him to hang on till the end and maybe take it 5, and slowly lose the tactical battle instead of the physical battle.

 

[RS]

relative or absolute level?

Top 30 best NBA player in 2050 or Peak Lebron James?

 

[Pheasant]

It’s really not fair comparing a 1981 model to a 1993 model. That’s 12 years of evolution.

That’s just like comparing my old iPhone 4s to an iphone 15.

 

[Kralingen]

Top 30 best NBA player in 2050 or Peak Lebron James?

I actually think LeBron is such a freakish athlete that evolution can’t go much further than him. Like there is an asymptote and an actual hard line of what humans are actually capable of. I mean it’s been 15 years since he entered the league and still no player who is as explosive and fast as him at that size (Zion is close, he can’t stay healthy, Giannis isn’t anywhere near as fluid though he is a similar athlete). Even now at age 39 he’s at worst a top 10 or so athlete which is absolutely insane but true. Djokovic last year was still comfortably a top 3 mover too. Obviously the 2050 top player will probably be something we can’t even comprehend right now, but 30 human beings better than him peak for peak? Doubt it.

 

[The Guru]

I actually think LeBron is such a freakish athlete that evolution can’t go much further than him. Like there is an asymptote and an actual hard line of what humans are actually capable of. I mean it’s been 15 years since he entered the league and still no player who is as explosive and fast as him at that size (Zion is close, he can’t stay healthy, Giannis isn’t anywhere near as fluid though he is a similar athlete). Even now at age 39 he’s at worst a top 10 or so athlete which is absolutely insane but true. Djokovic last year was still comfortably a top 3 mover too. Obviously the 2050 top player will probably be something we can’t even comprehend right now, but 30 human beings better than him peak for peak? Doubt it.

It actually breaks my brain to think what the 30 years from now LeBron could be like athletically

 

[Kralingen]

It actually breaks my brain to think what the 30 years from now LeBron could be like athletically

Yeah that's the thing. The place my brain goes first is height, instead of being 'only' 6'8" you have a 7'2" guy who can move like he's 10 inches shorter and has real strength. Giannis is kind of an evolved example of this but he's still a bit too wild and out of control for my liking. Maybe we just have a bunch of Wemby clones in the future.

But like if you watch say 09 Bron I just hesitate to think human beings can get much more athletic than that. Like Bolt for example, are we going to have guys running 9.4s anytime soon? Maybe, but there has to be some limit.

More realistic possibility is, it just goes the other way and it's not that the athleticism is much different but that guy has elite athleticism PLUS Jokic floaters and KD jump shot or something. Like the skill level just increases and increases to a point where the top guys have no weaknesses and can make every open shot they take.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

relative or absolute level?

Absolute

 

[Rosstour]

DelPo found the limit of how hard a man can hit a tennis ball @Kralingen

 

[abmk]

Federer easily at both and its not even close.

 

[abmk]

No contest, lol. Thiem had an amazing 2020 but Federer in his prime was just built different. Mostly agree with everyone here that Federer would clean up at USO. The level he showed there was pretty close to unbeatable. One only needs look at Blake and Davydenko's reactions on the court when they were thrown in the ring with him.
Even at AO I think we're underrating Fed's dominance. A lot has been said about how below-par he was that year, and it's true. But he still had the mental factor (remember he was 6-0 in major finals, made it 7-0 after winning it) to tough it out against underdogs who thought they could.
Ultimately I think Thiem would fare about the same as Baghdatis did - that is, close but no cigar. Baghdatis had some impressive wins against Roddick and Nalbandian coming in, had the crowd behind him and had Federer down a set and nearly a double break in the 2nd. Ultimately Federer's experience and confidence won out against Baghdatis's youthful exuberance, which is probably how it would've played out against Thiem.

Don't think Thiem would crash and burn as dramatically after the 2nd set though. I'd expect him to hang on till the end and maybe take it 5, and slowly lose the tactical battle instead of the physical battle.

Thiem couldn't even last more than 2 sets vs Nadal in RG 2019 after 5-setter vs djoko in semi (over 2 days).
How is he going to last vs fed after a draw of Stepanek, Ljubicic, Roddick, Nalbandian?
Thiem would crash and burn as much as Baggy did given the same draw.

and federer wasn't below par in AO 06. only below par compared to the other 7 non-clay slams at his peak. else 2006 AO is still clear prime level and not really worse than AO 2009.

 

[The Guru]

Yeah that's the thing. The place my brain goes first is height, instead of being 'only' 6'8" you have a 7'2" guy who can move like he's 10 inches shorter and has real strength. Giannis is kind of an evolved example of this but he's still a bit too wild and out of control for my liking. Maybe we just have a bunch of Wemby clones in the future.

But like if you watch say 09 Bron I just hesitate to think human beings can get much more athletic than that. Like Bolt for example, are we going to have guys running 9.4s anytime soon? Maybe, but there has to be some limit.

More realistic possibility is, it just goes the other way and it's not that the athleticism is much different but that guy has elite athleticism PLUS Jokic floaters and KD jump shot or something. Like the skill level just increases and increases to a point where the top guys have no weaknesses and can make every open shot they take.

I mean I'm sure people were saying the same thing about MJ Olajuwon or KG 20 years ago and look where we are. I guarantee you people thought Larry Allen was the peak of offensive line athletes and we just had a 320 pound guard run a sub 5 40 and go in the second round. Look at the difference between Trent Williams and Larry Allen's combines just 15 years apart. It's nuts. It's an absolute joke how athletic NBA/NFL athletes are right now so it seems like the bar just can't go any higher but somehow it just keeps on going up.

With the amount of money and research that's gone into sports in the last 20 years maybe we're finally starting to hit athletic plateaus at least in the top money sports (I think there's definitely room to go in the second tier popularity sports like tennis) but who knows. Maybe we could see an athlete that has 09 LeBron level quickness and explosiveness with Miami Bron's power and strength. It's hard to imagine that tradeoff is possible but who could've imagined LeBron or Westbrook before LeBron or Westbrook. I mean **** Ant is probably a better pure athlete than WB already and Westbrook had previously been my pick for best pure guard athlete ever and he's been surpassed before he even retired. Think about how impossible MJ's athleticism was in the 90s and he'd have no case for most athletic guard in the league right now.

 

[fedfan24]

Federer at both. Thiem will do well to win a set or 2 at the AO but gets dismantled at the USO.

 

[ForehandCross]

It's nice to see you around @Oceans II

 

[Pheasant]

Does anybody trust Thiem's clutchness to close out 2006 Peak Fed. I'm asking for a friend.

 

[Kralingen]

I mean I'm sure people were saying the same thing about MJ Olajuwon or KG 20 years ago and look where we are. I guarantee you people thought Larry Allen was the peak of offensive line athletes and we just had a 320 pound guard run a sub 5 40 and go in the second round. Look at the difference between Trent Williams and Larry Allen's combines just 15 years apart. It's nuts. It's an absolute joke how athletic NBA/NFL athletes are right now so it seems like the bar just can't go any higher but somehow it just keeps on going up.

With the amount of money and research that's gone into sports in the last 20 years maybe we're finally starting to hit athletic plateaus at least in the top money sports (I think there's definitely room to go in the second tier popularity sports like tennis) but who knows. Maybe we could see an athlete that has 09 LeBron level quickness and explosiveness with Miami Bron's power and strength. It's hard to imagine that tradeoff is possible but who could've imagined LeBron or Westbrook before LeBron or Westbrook. I mean **** Ant is probably a better pure athlete than WB already and Westbrook had previously been my pick for best pure guard athlete ever and he's been surpassed before he even retired. Think about how impossible MJ's athleticism was in the 90s and he'd have no case for most athletic guard in the league right now.

MJ wouldn't have a case? Maybe 2nd stint late 90s MJ (who wasn't really a super athlete) but early 90s MJ could fly it felt like and had an inhuman first step

Ant does have some crazy biomechanics with how low he gets on his drives and then explodes, it really is insane. But I don't think he's this incredibly gifted athlete compared to MJ at least not peak MJ. I guess MJ did have a lot less weight on him and that affects it, he definitely didn't have the freight train element to him.

As for the explosiveness reaching new heights, yeah maybe I'm too low on Zion and Giannis. We're already seeing craziness.

I guess I didn't think I'd see anything like Zion in my life and then we had Zion. Sadly injuries have crushed him but that play-in game he straight up out-athleted LeBron which I have seen maybe a handful of times in my entire life. That was terrifying, he's a one of one athlete. I mean in terms of strength and power I actually think he might better LeBron in some respects, he's just not in shape and can't stay healthy... I think that's exactly what's happening in baseball too though, guys are reaching the zenith of what the human arm can produce in terms of spin and just blowing out tendons that were never meant for this. Meanwhile he two best players under 30 are both below-the-rim chubby Euros.

I think Wemby/Chet types are the new frontier tbh, just supreme length and fluidity and height. That seems more achievable than guys with 50" verticals or whatever it is.

 

[NAS]

Does anybody trust Thiem's clutchness to close out 2006 Peak Fed. I'm asking for a friend.

Depends upon where match happens, I do not see him beating fed in final, but Thiem was very good and clutch in QF and semi.
I know Zverev is kind of meme here but in that semi he was serving light out ( 90 in first and third and around 80 in fourth) and Thiem manage to hold on himself.
He even saved many break point in third set.
His both matches were quite gruelling and he came on top , both matches were four setter but still it went for four hours each.
Seeing how Fed played against Davy and first two set against Keifer, I can clearly see lot of problem for Fed as Thiem ground game is better than both and his serve and FH is easily better than Davy.
I see qf Fed easily going to close five setter , whoever win is coin flip.
Another point is AO 2020 was medium fast surface and Ao 2007 was at best medium surface that will suit Thiem game more

People underestimate Thiem because of Us Open 2020 final but nobody remember us open semi when Med was in top form ( he went on to win Paris, yec, atp cup and made AO final )and he defeated him in straight set, something Rafa failed to do in 2019 and Novak in 2021 us open
People also don't remember how he defeated Fed, Djokovic and Zverev in 2019 yec and that was on speed up surface, and again defeated Djokovic and Rafa in 2020 yec in close match
But Us Open 2020 final made him meme lol

 

[Vincent-C]

Does anybody trust Thiem's clutchness to close out 2006 Peak Fed. I'm asking for a friend.

No.

 

[Vincent-C]

MJ wouldn't have a case? Maybe 2nd stint late 90s MJ (who wasn't really a super athlete) but early 90s MJ could fly it felt like and had an inhuman first step

Ant does have some crazy biomechanics with how low he gets on his drives and then explodes, it really is insane. But I don't think he's this incredibly gifted athlete compared to MJ at least not peak MJ. I guess MJ did have a lot less weight on him and that affects it, he definitely didn't have the freight train element to him.

As for the explosiveness reaching new heights, yeah maybe I'm too low on Zion and Giannis. We're already seeing craziness.

I guess I didn't think I'd see anything like Zion in my life and then we had Zion. Sadly injuries have crushed him but that play-in game he straight up out-athleted LeBron which I have seen maybe a handful of times in my entire life. That was terrifying, he's a one of one athlete. I mean in terms of strength and power I actually think he might better LeBron in some respects, he's just not in shape and can't stay healthy... I think that's exactly what's happening in baseball too though, guys are reaching the zenith of what the human arm can produce in terms of spin and just blowing out tendons that were never meant for this. Meanwhile he two best players under 30 are both below-the-rim chubby Euros.

I think Wemby/Chet types are the new frontier tbh, just supreme length and fluidity and height. That seems more achievable than guys with 50" verticals or whatever it is.

First-era MJ is not to be easily dismissed. Formidable, and magical.

 

[RS]

Does anybody trust Thiem's clutchness to close out 2006 Peak Fed. I'm asking for a friend.

Who wants to be a millionaire.

 

[Kralingen]

First-era MJ is not to be easily dismissed. Formidable, and magical.

I’m much much higher on that MJ than 96-98 especially against elite competition. Probably the greatest peak of any perimeter player ever.

 

[RS]

Chris Tarrant was the the GOAT of that show.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Taking this seriously would be more of a joke than the question itself.

 

[RS]

Inoue is fighting soon. May 9th I think.

 

[Vincent-C]

So how come Canelo won't fight someone real, like Benavidez? [rhetorical]

 

[RS]

So how come Canelo won't fight someone real, like Benavidez? [rhetorical]

Canelo Alvarez claims it would take '$150 million to $200 million' for him to face David Benavidez

The undisputed super middleweight champion raised the stakes on a potential showdown with the top contender

www.cbssports.com

 

[Vincent-C]

Canelo Alvarez claims it would take '$150 million to $200 million' for him to face David Benavidez

The undisputed super middleweight champion raised the stakes on a potential showdown with the top contender

www.cbssports.com

Thanks. Not an Alvarez fan.

 

[tudwell]

I mean I'm sure people were saying the same thing about MJ Olajuwon or KG 20 years ago and look where we are. I guarantee you people thought Larry Allen was the peak of offensive line athletes and we just had a 320 pound guard run a sub 5 40 and go in the second round. Look at the difference between Trent Williams and Larry Allen's combines just 15 years apart. It's nuts. It's an absolute joke how athletic NBA/NFL athletes are right now so it seems like the bar just can't go any higher but somehow it just keeps on going up.

With the amount of money and research that's gone into sports in the last 20 years maybe we're finally starting to hit athletic plateaus at least in the top money sports (I think there's definitely room to go in the second tier popularity sports like tennis) but who knows. Maybe we could see an athlete that has 09 LeBron level quickness and explosiveness with Miami Bron's power and strength. It's hard to imagine that tradeoff is possible but who could've imagined LeBron or Westbrook before LeBron or Westbrook. I mean **** Ant is probably a better pure athlete than WB already and Westbrook had previously been my pick for best pure guard athlete ever and he's been surpassed before he even retired. Think about how impossible MJ's athleticism was in the 90s and he'd have no case for most athletic guard in the league right now.

I don't know basketball in the slightest, but I agree we probably haven't reached the asymptote yet in tennis. I mean I can imagine a 6'4" player who serves like Kyrgios and moves like Monfils. Or a 6'6" guy who serves like Raonic (or close to it) and returns like Medvedev. That latter player would be nigh unbeatable and is probably strictly hypothetical since I imagine the physical traits that allow Raonic to serve the way he does prevent him from moving like Medvedev and vice versa. But I'm sure we can at least get quite a bit closer. Zverev's a great mover for his height (though behind Med) and has the power on his serve but not the placement or variety of the truly great servers. If he developed that, then he himself would probably be one of these hypothetical new breeds.

 

[NAS]

I don't know basketball in the slightest, but I agree we probably haven't reached the asymptote yet in tennis. I mean I can imagine a 6'4" player who serves like Kyrgios and moves like Monfils. Or a 6'6" guy who serves like Raonic (or close to it) and returns like Medvedev. That latter player would be nigh unbeatable and is probably strictly hypothetical since I imagine the physical traits that allow Raonic to serve the way he does prevent him from moving like Medvedev and vice versa. But I'm sure we can at least get quite a bit closer. Zverev's a great mover for his height (though behind Med) and has the power on his serve but not the placement or variety of the truly great servers. If he developed that, then he himself would probably be one of these hypothetical new breeds.

Med with better fh is already new very dangerous player, great mover, good bh, good first and second serve, if he has great fh he might have won more

 

[NeutralFan]

Does anyone really think 2020 Djokovic beats 2006 Federer in AO?

Yes!! Fatdatis lol

 

[RS]

Thanks. Not an Alvarez fan.

Canelo has settled with the king of throne mindset. I think it would be a better fight a couple years down the line.

 

[Kralingen]

I don't know basketball in the slightest, but I agree we probably haven't reached the asymptote yet in tennis. I mean I can imagine a 6'4" player who serves like Kyrgios and moves like Monfils. Or a 6'6" guy who serves like Raonic (or close to it) and returns like Medvedev. That latter player would be nigh unbeatable and is probably strictly hypothetical since I imagine the physical traits that allow Raonic to serve the way he does prevent him from moving like Medvedev and vice versa. But I'm sure we can at least get quite a bit closer. Zverev's a great mover for his height (though behind Med) and has the power on his serve but not the placement or variety of the truly great servers. If he developed that, then he himself would probably be one of these hypothetical new breeds.

Tennis absolutely. The sort of incredible athleticism that would raise to the top in some of the more competitive team sport pools just doesn’t play tennis, for a variety of complex reasons. Though of course it stands to reason that those athletes may not exactly excel at tennis, for the same reason they might not excel at, say, fencing or skiing, in that it’s a highly repetitive skill-based game which requires a lot of individual drilling and has a high barrier to entry.

 

[bnjkn]

2006 AO was not a particularly strong version of Federer. Otherwise it's kind of sad to compare Thiem to peak Fed. Thiem was great but it's not close.

 

[Vincent-C]

Canelo has settled with the king of throne mindset. I think it would be a better fight a couple years down the line.

GGG got robbed- twice. That's my man, right there.. looks like he's done, though.

 

[GloW]

Federer but not significantly

 

[RS]

GGG got robbed- twice. That's my man, right there.. looks like he's done, though.

GGG is as good as retired I think. Hasn't confirmed it 100% but he said after the 3rd fight the money would help him retire.

 

[Vincent-C]

GGG is as good as retired I think. Hasn't confirmed it 100% but he said after the 3rd fight the money would help him retire.

Yeah, I think he's done. Too bad it had to end with a loss to that one dude in particular (who had been ducking him for ages after fight II). At least Golovkin got big money for that final fight. Classic pressure fighter..

 

[RS]

Yeah, I think he's done. Too bad it had to end with a loss to that one dude in particular (who had been ducking him for ages after fight II).

GGG was a great to watch.

 

[DSH]

No contest, lol. Thiem had an amazing 2020 but Federer in his prime was just built different. Mostly agree with everyone here that Federer would clean up at USO. The level he showed there was pretty close to unbeatable. One only needs look at Blake and Davydenko's reactions on the court when they were thrown in the ring with him.
Even at AO I think we're underrating Fed's dominance. A lot has been said about how below-par he was that year, and it's true. But he still had the mental factor (remember he was 6-0 in major finals, made it 7-0 after winning it) to tough it out against underdogs who thought they could.
Ultimately I think Thiem would fare about the same as Baghdatis did - that is, close but no cigar. Baghdatis had some impressive wins against Roddick and Nalbandian coming in, had the crowd behind him and had Federer down a set and nearly a double break in the 2nd. Ultimately Federer's experience and confidence won out against Baghdatis's youthful exuberance, which is probably how it would've played out against Thiem.

Don't think Thiem would crash and burn as dramatically after the 2nd set though. I'd expect him to hang on till the end and maybe take it 5, and slowly lose the tactical battle instead of the physical battle.

Who would win, Blake from the 2006 US Open vs Thiem from the 2020 US Open?

 

[messiahrobins]

I can only assume anyone even thinking about this has forgot what Federer 2006 was like.

 

[Vincent-C]

I can only assume anyone even thinking about this has forgot what Federer 2006 was like.

"Imperious" is the word that comes to mind. Maybe my favorite Fredyear.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Federer much better at the USO.

Federer a bit better at the AO.

 

[The Guru]

MJ wouldn't have a case? Maybe 2nd stint late 90s MJ (who wasn't really a super athlete) but early 90s MJ could fly it felt like and had an inhuman first step

Ant does have some crazy biomechanics with how low he gets on his drives and then explodes, it really is insane. But I don't think he's this incredibly gifted athlete compared to MJ at least not peak MJ. I guess MJ did have a lot less weight on him and that affects it, he definitely didn't have the freight train element to him.

As for the explosiveness reaching new heights, yeah maybe I'm too low on Zion and Giannis. We're already seeing craziness.

I guess I didn't think I'd see anything like Zion in my life and then we had Zion. Sadly injuries have crushed him but that play-in game he straight up out-athleted LeBron which I have seen maybe a handful of times in my entire life. That was terrifying, he's a one of one athlete. I mean in terms of strength and power I actually think he might better LeBron in some respects, he's just not in shape and can't stay healthy... I think that's exactly what's happening in baseball too though, guys are reaching the zenith of what the human arm can produce in terms of spin and just blowing out tendons that were never meant for this. Meanwhile he two best players under 30 are both below-the-rim chubby Euros.

I think Wemby/Chet types are the new frontier tbh, just supreme length and fluidity and height. That seems more achievable than guys with 50" verticals or whatever it is.

Maybe MJ with a modern training regimen but as you said dude was pretty damn skinny in the late 80s early 90s (which is his athletic and overall zenith). Ant's got maybe 30 pounds on him same age despite being shorter. There have been some absolute freaks coming out recently Ja and Ant are the obvious ones but Ivey, The Thompson Twins (Ausar is particularly ridiculous), Shaedon Sharpe, Simons, Fox, Maxey, Mitchell, Lavine, hell even mediocre players like Lonnie Walker and KJ martin are just absolute freaks of nature. Are we definitely taking MJ over the freaks of the last generation of guards athletically too? Wall is maybe the fastest NBA player ever Rose was insane before his injuries and obviously Westbrook is insane maybe the best pure athlete in NBA history though as I said Ant may have already taken that crown.

Zion is an absolutely stupid athlete if he took care of himself it'd be awesome to watch.

Haha true I think that says way more about how broken American basketball development and coaching is than anything. The 5 best player in the world this season all aren't Americans.

I think you're right about the MLB but that's harder to isolate as precision and physical athletics matter in a much more balanced manner whereas the NFL selects basically exclusively for speed and strength and the NBA lies somewhere in the middle but much closer to the NFL imo while also selecting for height obviously.

You could be right there but until we see an athletic plateau I'm going to assume it's going to keep getting better and better.

 

[The Guru]

I don't know basketball in the slightest, but I agree we probably haven't reached the asymptote yet in tennis. I mean I can imagine a 6'4" player who serves like Kyrgios and moves like Monfils. Or a 6'6" guy who serves like Raonic (or close to it) and returns like Medvedev. That latter player would be nigh unbeatable and is probably strictly hypothetical since I imagine the physical traits that allow Raonic to serve the way he does prevent him from moving like Medvedev and vice versa. But I'm sure we can at least get quite a bit closer. Zverev's a great mover for his height (though behind Med) and has the power on his serve but not the placement or variety of the truly great servers. If he developed that, then he himself would probably be one of these hypothetical new breeds.

As much as I dislike the guy Zverev had enormous potential. I think the future of tennis will have a lot of guys like him.