Goran Ivanisevic if born in modern era could have definitely served like Raonic and returned like Medvedev. Dude was a very lanky guy.
Who was better in the HC slams: Thiem in 2020 or Federer in 2006?
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Dominic & Andrey
Legend
I am a Thiem fan but come on lol.
messiahrobins
Legend
God like comes to mind for me.
That’s assuming that things always get better. The men’s Mile record on the track, for instance, hasn’t been broken for a quarter of a century (neither has the 1500 metre record)
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Cabeza del Demonio
Professional
It's not Thiem's clutchness that was a problem, it was Fed's.No.
7-0 in Slam finals was (and is) absolutely unparalleled.
Meles
Bionic Poster
As a former ardent Thiem fan I'll do my best to hype his myth. His best form was at the 2020 US Open and his win over Medvedev in the semi-final was incredible. Thiem was at his all time best in level at that time, but then that choke fest final happened where he gave away the first two sets to Zverev. He should have won the match easily and been much, much fresher for RG just a few weeks later. Nadal was an absolute fraud for playing the covid card for the US Open so he could be completely fresh for the much more plague ridden Roland Garros event where the rest of the field was exhausted due to the grueling schedule. If Thiem doesn't choke that US Open final AND Nadal had fairly played the US Open Thiem might have won both events. Thiem pretty much owned Djokovic at RG and was in spectacular/peak form. Thiem was dominating the Big 3 coming into this period for the most part just to add some more spice. We hardly saw prime Thiem which probably started with the Indian Wells win and his slice started becoming spectacular during this period (even crap Thiem of the last year has one of the top ten rated backhands by the new ATP metrics.)
But by stats and any other sensible measure Federer 2006 is the winner hands down. Thiem even in 2020 where he also made tour finals again only won 52.3% of his hard court points for the year. These are abysmmal stats for the best player of the year (but still shame on the abhorrent ITF not handing him their award for 2020 since Wimbledumb nixed doing the award.) Thiem had the best record at the slams in 2020. His abscence from the top of the field in 2021 and beyond has been a shame.
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Meles
Bionic Poster
Finally it looks like in 2024 he's realizing that potential. His 2nd serve numbers have been horribly bad for many years after being excellent for his age in 2017 and now they're at least reputable:
| TOTALS | Match | Tiebreak | Ace% | 1stIn | 1st% | 2nd% | Hld% | SPW | Brk% | RPW | TPW | DR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| [x] Time Span: 2024; Surfa... | 18-6 (75%) | 9-6 (60%) | 9.9% | 73.6% | 74.6% | 56.2% | 90.1% | 69.7% | 18.9% | 36.1% | 52.7% | 1.19 |
| [x] Time Span: 2020; Surfa... | 25-10 (71%) | 10-9 (53%) | 13.0% | 68.5% | 77.2% | 44.9% | 83.2% | 67.0% | 27.1% | 39.0% | 52.5% | 1.18 |
| [x] Time Span: 2019; Surfa... | 26-14 (65%) | 14-6 (70%) | 14.3% | 67.0% | 76.5% | 46.3% | 81.9% | 66.5% | 23.8% | 38.1% | 51.9% | 1.14 |
I'm sure his 2024 numbers won't keep up at quite this level since his return numbers are suspiciously low (implies he's been playing more big servers who of course tend not to return as well.) He's got a little window right now since he does have pretty good slam stamina at this point. Still overall the coaching drives me nuts and he has a version of the Djokovic lockdown mode that is more just going back to being a teenage pusher. He's going to continue to get mauled by the top players when he goes into this mode.
The Thompsons are absurd you're right. like 99th percentile athletes each, a combination of size and speed you almost never see. I look at Paolo now tonight and he’s another one, such a huge frame and movement, he looks and moves like a taller Carmelo and he’s not even 22 yet. In 20 years I do think we’ll have crazier athletes than we even know how to comprehend at the moment. But I do think injuries will be an issue as we get closer and closer to the “peak” of human athleticism so to speak. The real reason for this is biomechanics training seems to be the new frontier so maybe everyone will move as optimally as possible in the future.
Eye test wise, he seems completely lost. Blitzed on return (didn’t even break serve) in consecutive losses to SA forehand and wheels clay rats in Garin and Cerundolo. I didn’t watch all of the match today but Z reduced back into the “can’t hit a forehand” mode. When he’s off, like he was today, he is nigh unwatchable. The serve improvements can only do so much if the base ground game is going to be struck with that little confidence.
That little spurt of good at the AO is now extinguished. His serve is admirable but the RPW is dwindling, fast, and that signifies bad news.
Meles
Bionic Poster
I saw Cerundolo who is on the verge of a bit of a breakout at least on clay; his forehand is a massive weapon.
Yeah the pushing mode not a good idea against a player with weapons or Garin who is hyper agressive for a clay rat haha. By my eye test I think the ankle is close to 100%.
I still go back to his incredible 3 hour clash with Nadal at RG where his ankle gave way just before the 2nd set tiebreaker would have started. That was set to be the most grueling tennis match of all time. Frankly I could see him getting back to that level plus he'll have these improvements:
1. Much better 2nd serve situation
2. Much, much better volleying (until the last few years he was the worst volleyer I've ever seen in any professional tennis match.) He's a chip off the old Mischa these days.
3. Dropshot also improved
I think that great Nadal clash for which he honed his whole game is probably a style of tennis that won't work well against many players today, but they're all young and he did take out Carlos rather easily once again at the AO this year. I'd not want him in my section of the draw and I'm pretty sure he cost Tsistsipas an RG trophy with his unexpected resilience in their 2021 semifinal. And he surely damaged Medvedev greatly at the 2024 Australian Open. Zverev was pretty much garbage coming into 2022 RG and it can be argued that he might well have won it except for the ankle mishap. I'm not a fan of all of his pushing at slams because it ultimately will kill his chances at the very end of the tournament, but still I think he has a fine chance to win RG and maybe moreso if Nadal shows up at a decent level and takes care of some of the younglings.
abmk
Bionic Poster
No - in bold.
Many wouldn't even trust Thiem in a final to close out 14-15 fed, let alone 10-12 fed, let alone 08/09 prime fed, let alone peak 04-07 fed.
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BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Lol it is very unlikely that Thiem beats any version of Fed 2004-2007 on any HC. The guy who needed Zverev’s complete choke artistry to even win his only slam should out of the sudden be able to beat prime Fed. But I know that this is a troll thread anyways so nevermind.
RS
Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?
1. Nadal RG 11 final or Federer USO 07 final
2. Djokovic RG 11 SF or Federer USO 09 final
3. Thiem AO 20 final or Hewitt AO 05 4R
4. Nadal RG 17 SF or Djokovic USO 11 SF
5. Federer RG 07 final or Federer Wim 09 final
6. Thiem AO 20 QF or Roddick USO 07 QF
7. Agassi Wim 92 final or Agassi AO 04 SF
8. Roddick AO 04 QF or Djokovic AO 21 final
1. Nadal RG 11 final or Federer USO 07 final
2. Djokovic RG 11 SF or Federer USO 09 final
3. Thiem AO 20 final or Hewitt AO 05 4R
4. Nadal RG 17 SF or Djokovic USO 11 SF
5. Federer RG 07 final or Federer Wim 09 final
6. Thiem AO 20 QF or Roddick USO 07 QF
7. Agassi Wim 92 final or Agassi AO 04 SF
8. Roddick AO 04 QF or Djokovic AO 21 final
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Federer vs Thiem stats wise
2006 vs 2024
Set won % Fed 83% Thiem 75%
HLD % Fed 91% 86%
BRK % Fed 35.7% Thiem 29%
Serve Pt won % Fed 70% Thiem 68%
Return Pt won % Fed 44% Thiem 40%
Total game won % Fed 56.4% Thiem 53.9%
All the categories, Fed is ahead of Thiem. Especially look at the RPW.
I think Fed is clearly better than Thiem. Now you can make any claim you wish. But return is huge difference between them on HC. This is not clay. I think on clay Thiem's return is even better than Feds because this is groundstrokers heaven. But on HC, its still not elite enough.
Fed is taken to five 1 time.
Thiem 3 times and lost 1 of them.
2006 vs 2024
Set won % Fed 83% Thiem 75%
HLD % Fed 91% 86%
BRK % Fed 35.7% Thiem 29%
Serve Pt won % Fed 70% Thiem 68%
Return Pt won % Fed 44% Thiem 40%
Total game won % Fed 56.4% Thiem 53.9%
All the categories, Fed is ahead of Thiem. Especially look at the RPW.
I think Fed is clearly better than Thiem. Now you can make any claim you wish. But return is huge difference between them on HC. This is not clay. I think on clay Thiem's return is even better than Feds because this is groundstrokers heaven. But on HC, its still not elite enough.
Fed is taken to five 1 time.
Thiem 3 times and lost 1 of them.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Yes while Thiem is very good in 2020, he played in a depleted field due to pandemic.
Its his good fortune that he was able to turn around 2 sets deficit vs Zverev, or he would remain slamless. Fed barely once got pushed to five and delievered 7 bagels in 14 matches. He was dominating.
4 breadsticks as well.
Thiem matched him with 4 breadsticks but that is all.
Thiem DR swayed from 0.83 vs Nole where Thiem lost, to 2.28
Fed was between 1.07 to 2.34
Now Fed was stretched to tiebreak just 5 times. Thiem a total of 12 times.
I think this is exactly how both matches would go.
Fed would win AO in 4 sets probably with 1 TB.
Fed would win USO in 3 sets with 1 TB.
Thiem would push Fed a lot. But there is no one like Fed on serve that Thiem faced. Fed faced Roddick and won comfortably in 4th set.
Its his good fortune that he was able to turn around 2 sets deficit vs Zverev, or he would remain slamless. Fed barely once got pushed to five and delievered 7 bagels in 14 matches. He was dominating.
4 breadsticks as well.
Thiem matched him with 4 breadsticks but that is all.
Thiem DR swayed from 0.83 vs Nole where Thiem lost, to 2.28
Fed was between 1.07 to 2.34
Now Fed was stretched to tiebreak just 5 times. Thiem a total of 12 times.
I think this is exactly how both matches would go.
Fed would win AO in 4 sets probably with 1 TB.
Fed would win USO in 3 sets with 1 TB.
Thiem would push Fed a lot. But there is no one like Fed on serve that Thiem faced. Fed faced Roddick and won comfortably in 4th set.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Now comparing Fed 2006 to Murray 2012 makes a bit more sense. Murray can actually play well on HC.
Murray did far better than Thiem could at that pt.
Why Murray and why not Thiem? The break % is hardly good for an elite player.
| Stat | Fed 2006 | Thiem 2020 | Andy 2012 |
| Sets won | 83 Winner | 75 | 80.4 |
| HLD% | 91 Winner | 86 | 80.8 |
| BRK% | 35.7 | 29 | 38.6 Winner |
| SP% | 70 Winner | 68 | 64 |
| RP% | 44 | 40 | 45.2 Winner |
| Total game% | 63.7 Winner | 52.6 | 60 |
| Bagel | 7 Winner | 0 | 2 |
| Breadstick | 4 | 4 | 7 Winner |
| Tiebreaks | 5 Winner | 12 | 5 Winner |
| Criteria winners | 6 | 4 |
Murray did far better than Thiem could at that pt.
Why Murray and why not Thiem? The break % is hardly good for an elite player.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
| Stat | Fed 2006 | Thiem 2020 | Andy 2012 | Djokovic 2023 |
| Sets won | 83 Winner | 75 | 80.4 | 93 |
| HLD% | 91 Winner | 86 | 80.8 | |
| BRK% | 35.7 | 29 | 38.6 Winner | |
| SP% | 70 Winner | 68 | 64 | |
| RP% | 44 | 40 | 45.2 Winner | |
| Total game% | 63.7 Winner | 52.6 | 60 | 66.5 |
| Bagel | 7 Winner | 0 | 2 | 3 |
| Breadstick | 4 | 4 | 7 Winner | 9 |
| Tiebreaks | 5 Winner | 12 | 5 Winner | 6 |
| Criteria winners | 6 | 4 |
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Fed-Thiem have actually played 7 matches, with Fed ranking higher each time and won 50.8% of total points, yet the H2H stands at 2-5, with all 3 tiebreakers going to Thiem. Quite surprising. @Meles
BTW, AO2006, Fed faced only ONE player (#5 Davydenko) in the top 20. Quite the display of strong competition, isn't it? sorry to point that out.
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Not surprising because Fed was on his last legs in most.
There are 54 other players who played more than 7 matches vs Fed. Fed was too old for matches vs Thiem.
The 1 great win is Thiem's grass win over Fed. Even though Fed was injured he was not easy to beat. Rest look ok. Last 3 matches are in 2019, Fed was 38 in 2019.
This would be like Djokovic in 2025 loosing 3 matches to some rando in non bo5 and worrying about it.
Thiem is ok player, a bit worse than Stan career wise. Fed is former GOAT. 2006 was his year.
There are 54 other players who played more than 7 matches vs Fed. Fed was too old for matches vs Thiem.
The 1 great win is Thiem's grass win over Fed. Even though Fed was injured he was not easy to beat. Rest look ok. Last 3 matches are in 2019, Fed was 38 in 2019.
This would be like Djokovic in 2025 loosing 3 matches to some rando in non bo5 and worrying about it.
Thiem is ok player, a bit worse than Stan career wise. Fed is former GOAT. 2006 was his year.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Too bad LeBron didn’t pair up with Serena instead of Savannah. Would have been interesting to see what that genetically engineered offspring could do on the court.
ANOTHER STUPID, SILLY AND OBVIOUS QUESTION- ANSWER THREAD!
Meles
Bionic Poster
Thiem for the win against 2003-2004 Fraud on clay. I'm quite sure if crippled Kuerten could dust him off that Thiem would have had no problem. On clay Thiem would be big trouble for any version of Federer if he showed up and was playing his best especially at Roland Garros. Lets not forget that save Nadal that the entire clay field evaporated in the mid-2000s.
My bad for pointing this out since this is a hard court thread. Clay would be a much more interesting subject.
Meles
Bionic Poster
If you just plopped old Thiem back then he'd probably be like a fox in a hen house to some extent. Nowhere near as good as Fed still, but head to head Thiem is 5-2 and of course one of those wins was against very early Thiem. Fernando Gonzalez was a similar player to Thiem and he caused Fed some trouble. And of course Thiem was a much better player than Fernando.
Thiem's power backhand would have been a real shocker back then and the slice he had going in 2020 is very underrated. I just saw a graphic on the top backhands on tour for the last 52 weeks or something and crippled Thiem was in the top 10 for backhand quality.
No way does Thiem dominate versus the field etc., but head to head and also the fact that in general play gets betterer and betterer on tour over time. Thiem would have been a bolt of lightning in 2006 and a real challenge to both Federer and Nadal in big matches.
Instead we end up with videos like this with Federistas crowing about Fed whipping up on James Blake.
ghostofMecir
Legend
Even after retirement, all this poster can think about is Fedr.
RS
Bionic Poster
Blake USO 2005 and 2006 would be a tough match for 2015 Fed and 2015 Djokovic at the USO.If you just plopped old Thiem back then he'd probably be like a fox in a hen house to some extent. Nowhere near as good as Fed still, but head to head Thiem is 5-2 and of course one of those wins was against very early Thiem. Fernando Gonzalez was a similar player to Thiem and he caused Fed some trouble. And of course Thiem was a much better player than Fernando.
Thiem's power backhand would have been a real shocker back then and the slice he had going in 2020 is very underrated. I just saw a graphic on the top backhands on tour for the last 52 weeks or something and crippled Thiem was in the top 10 for backhand quality.
No way does Thiem dominate versus the field etc., but head to head and also the fact that in general play gets betterer and betterer on tour over time. Thiem would have been a bolt of lightning in 2006 and a real challenge to both Federer and Nadal in big matches.
Instead we end up with videos like this with Federistas crowing about Fed whipping up on James Blake.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Thiem for the win against 2003-2004 Fraud on clay. I'm quite sure if crippled Kuerten could dust him off that Thiem would have had no problem. On clay Thiem would be big trouble for any version of Federer if he showed up and was playing his best especially at Roland Garros. Lets not forget that save Nadal that the entire clay field evaporated in the mid-2000s.
My bad for pointing this out since this is a hard court thread. Clay would be a much more interesting subject.
03 fed obviously given fed lost to frickin Horna at RG, mantilla at Rome etc.
04 not really. Kuerten rolled back the years and that was 3R. in a later round vs Thiem, fed would be sharper. Thiem's best chance at RG vs fed from 04-11, but still no trust.
and no for Thiem at RG or clay final vs 05-11 fed
he has a shot in non-final in masters or 500 event. that's it
06 Federer is too good, thiem’s game will break down. He won’t do much better than Blake at USO.If you just plopped old Thiem back then he'd probably be like a fox in a hen house to some extent. Nowhere near as good as Fed still, but head to head Thiem is 5-2 and of course one of those wins was against very early Thiem. Fernando Gonzalez was a similar player to Thiem and he caused Fed some trouble. And of course Thiem was a much better player than Fernando.
Thiem's power backhand would have been a real shocker back then and the slice he had going in 2020 is very underrated. I just saw a graphic on the top backhands on tour for the last 52 weeks or something and crippled Thiem was in the top 10 for backhand quality.
No way does Thiem dominate versus the field etc., but head to head and also the fact that in general play gets betterer and betterer on tour over time. Thiem would have been a bolt of lightning in 2006 and a real challenge to both Federer and Nadal in big matches.
Instead we end up with videos like this with Federistas crowing about Fed whipping up on James Blake.
RS
Bionic Poster
I agree about Thiem slice though. In AO 2020 and YEC 2020 he was absolutely blasting SH-BH's.If you just plopped old Thiem back then he'd probably be like a fox in a hen house to some extent. Nowhere near as good as Fed still, but head to head Thiem is 5-2 and of course one of those wins was against very early Thiem. Fernando Gonzalez was a similar player to Thiem and he caused Fed some trouble. And of course Thiem was a much better player than Fernando.
Thiem's power backhand would have been a real shocker back then and the slice he had going in 2020 is very underrated. I just saw a graphic on the top backhands on tour for the last 52 weeks or something and crippled Thiem was in the top 10 for backhand quality.
No way does Thiem dominate versus the field etc., but head to head and also the fact that in general play gets betterer and betterer on tour over time. Thiem would have been a bolt of lightning in 2006 and a real challenge to both Federer and Nadal in big matches.
Instead we end up with videos like this with Federistas crowing about Fed whipping up on James Blake.
Meles
Bionic Poster
I was a huge Thiem fan. He came out of the covid break considerably stronger with the backhand than Australia. It is pretty shocking how he imploded. Sure a lot of top players imploded due to injuries in the mid-2000s, but Thiem is right there with Coria at this point. Coria went belly up at age 24 just in time for young Rafa to take over.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Thiem benefited a lot to the changes to the foundations of the courts for 2018 which slowed things down with a bit higher bounce (my physics may be shaky here.) Its hard to say with his later changes that gave him a chance on faster surfaces if that would have translated. What Thiem did against giant servers was receive from the very back of the court. I'm not sure if that would have been a viable strategy on the 2006 surface. If it was he would have been able to have a chance of breaking Federer or Roddick. I doubt Thiem's game breaks down that much. I seem to recall Safin overpowering Federer, so Thiem would've been a rough opponent, but only if he could break. Move Fed or Roddick to the later US Open courts and he's breaking them and in the match. Thiem when he got rolling at a slam was a bit like Stan in that his numbers/stats would be impressive and he was just getting into his stamina prime in 2020. The mythical potential of Thiem I'd put right up there with Safin.
In any event historically and how they dominated the field Fed 2006 >>> Thiem 2020 for the year. If your just going to put a player in a time machine and send them back its always going to favor the later players as the game has evolved. I'm pretty sure you put Djokovic 2021-2023 in a time machine back to 2011, his younger self would have been experiencing a lot more finger wagging.
RS
Bionic Poster
Shame he fell off like that. It was more drastic and earlier than I expected.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Its hard to deny given that Thiem's RG runs were plagued by weather and bad draws. Many accused him of choking or something, but he was out of gas nearly every time. 2016 and 2019 he was massively impacted by the weather. 2017 Thiem clearly did not have the stamina. 2018 Thiem was horrible coming into RG and had to try to use Lyon to get into form.
2018 ATP Lyon Open – Singles - Wikipedia
In final analysis I think we'd have to field an imaginary Thiem like what he might have played like with 2019 balls in 2020 with a full tank of gas. We basically never saw Thiem in 2020 on clay. Thiem's 2021 injury in the Spring led to a failure to launch on clay that year. He had a lackluster run to Madrid SF and then fizzled. Didn't look great at RG with the newer balls. And then career over. This mythical Thiem that we never saw on a clay court really (though a taste at 2020 RG) might have challenged prime Fed at RG in a big match. Younger versions of Thiem if seeded low enough maybe could pull off an upset in QF, but then probably fizzle before the final.
Meles
Bionic Poster
LOL. I was a Blake fan. 2015 US Open is a weird one since the weather the day of the final hurt Fed tremendously. I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around peak Blake and remember 2006 was weaker than weak. Let me look at 2015... oh wow yeah that QF group is not good. Maybe in hindsight Stan was alright, but early, early KA and the rest might have been susceptible to quite a few players from 2006 US Open. Davydenko 2007 would have been interesting in that field and Roddick with his serve, but I'm still not fully sold on them beating Djokerer 2015. Given both of their track records in the years to follow at the US Open it is an interesting case. In 2015 people would have laughed and laughed at the idea. That final was a big one. Agassi at 2005 US Open looks shaky as hell barely beating Blake in QF and Ginepri in the SF. Blake in 2006 and Davydenko in 2007 were really bashing the ball I'll grant, but this is all quite the stretch just because Fed was troubled slightly by Blake in 2006. House of cards if ever I saw one, but interesting.
RS
Bionic Poster
I was messing a bit. Doubt Blake is beating 2015 Djokovic anywhere relevant in particular even though it would probably be a competitive match in spades.LOL. I was a Blake fan. 2015 US Open is a weird one since the weather the day of the final hurt Fed tremendously. I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around peak Blake and remember 2006 was weaker than weak. Let me look at 2015... oh wow yeah that QF group is not good. Maybe in hindsight Stan was alright, but early, early KA and the rest might have been susceptible to quite a few players from 2006 US Open. Davydenko 2007 would have been interesting in that field and Roddick with his serve, but I'm still not fully sold on them beating Djokerer 2015. Given both of their track records in the years to follow at the US Open it is an interesting case. In 2015 people would have laughed and laughed at the idea. That final was a big one. Agassi at 2005 US Open looks shaky as hell barely beating Blake in QF and Ginepri in the SF. Blake in 2006 and Davydenko in 2007 were really bashing the ball I'll grant, but this is all quite the stretch just because Fed was troubled slightly by Blake in 2006. House of cards if ever I saw one, but interesting.
AlexATP
New User
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Federer beats Thiem probably in 4 sets (maybe 5) at the AO and wins in straight sets at the USO (maybe wins one set if he goes full out like Blake in the QF).
People really forget how good Fed was at his peak, even slightly injured:
People really forget how good Fed was at his peak, even slightly injured:
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
No need to be this generous lol
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