Who was greater: 2005-07 Nadal (age 19-21) vs 2017-19 Nadal (age 31-33)?

Who's greater: 2005-07 Nadal or 2017-19 Nadal

  • Total voters
    36
Mike Sams said:
Read what you posted again. :-D

>>I'd pick 2007 slightly over 2018 (due to nearly beating 2007 Federer who himself was quite better than 2018 Djokovic) and 2006 well over 2019. His 2019 SF against Fed simply wasn't a good match from him. He took one set that Fed practically wrapped up in a gift box but didn't do much in the third and fourth sets. 2006 Nadal had a great middle two sets of the final which really seals the deal for me.<<

You made your conclusion based on a couple of Federer meetings. LOL
Click to expand...

If you'd like, I'll explain further since you need the extra information. You also don't quite get the point.

Let's use your methodology. 2007 Nadal was quicker, more explosive, and much better at getting to balls than his older self (though his older self has a better serve and hit flatter shots). His Wimbledon 2007 run was probably his third best Wimbledon campaign, because he was good enough to force prime Federer to a deciding set in what was one of the best Wimbledon finals of all time. That scores huge points for 2007 because he proved that he could trouble the top grass player in the world -- heck, he even played better in the first four sets. He played very well in 2018 as well (and it's probably his fourth best Wimbledon campaign) and played a great SF match, but I don't think that one was as high-quality as the 2007 final. And it was also against a weaker opponent in Djokovic.

Don't get the pitchforks out because I called Djokovic a weaker opponent; that's a true statement on grass courts. He's not as good as prime Federer on the surface.

2018 gets extra points for being cleaner in the early rounds, but I rate performance in the later rounds against the better opponents more highly. It's why I consider Djokovic's 2016 AO run to be an excellent win. He was pretty sub-par in the Simon match but then he GOATed in the SF-F against Federer and Murray. That's what matters more. The only exception is a tournament in which the player in question had nice, clean matches throughout (like Djokovic's AO 2011 and 2008).

On to 2006 and 2019 Nadal. Both were pretty good runs by Nadal (again, 2019 gets points for cleaner early rounds, but not by a lot). 2006 Nadal played the much tougher opponent (2006 vs. 2019 Federer is no comparison at all) and he also pushed him harder despite the bagel set. The two middle sets where Nadal drew even with possibly Fed's best Wimbledon version (though I personally think 2003 was better) were more impressive than anything he did in the 2019 tournament.

Nadal didn't offer much resistance in the 2019 semi. His groundstrokes were not spectacularly impressive -- it was to the point where Fed was actually beating him in the longer rallies. He won one 6-1 set, but from watching the match, it was clear that Fed practically gifted that one to him with how bad he was playing.

There's no real doubt in my mind that 2005-2007 Nadal was better on grass than 2017-2019 Nadal. My order of his best to worst grass court seasons from those years is as follows:

2007
2018
2006
2019
2017
2005
 
There is a good chance 2005-07 Nadal would have lost to Medvedev in the US Open Final.
Medvedev is very crafty + athletic + great stamina, and only lost because 2019 Nadal was magnificent at the net.
Medvedev can absorb pace very well, so I don't think 2005-07 Nadal's aggression would have bothered Medvedev, and I don't think Medvedev would have minded playing long rallies.
 
Third Serve said:
If you'd like, I'll explain further since you need the extra information. You also don't quite get the point.

Let's use your methodology. 2007 Nadal was quicker, more explosive, and much better at getting to balls than his older self (though his older self has a better serve and hit flatter shots). His Wimbledon 2007 run was probably his third best Wimbledon campaign, because he was good enough to force prime Federer to a deciding set in what was one of the best Wimbledon finals of all time. That scores huge points for 2007 because he proved that he could trouble the top grass player in the world -- heck, he even played better in the first four sets. He played very well in 2018 as well (and it's probably his fourth best Wimbledon campaign) and played a great SF match, but I don't think that one was as high-quality as the 2007 final. And it was also against a weaker opponent in Djokovic.

Don't get the pitchforks out because I called Djokovic a weaker opponent; that's a true statement on grass courts. He's not as good as prime Federer on the surface.

2018 gets extra points for being cleaner in the early rounds, but I rate performance in the later rounds against the better opponents more highly. It's why I consider Djokovic's 2016 AO run to be an excellent win. He was pretty sub-par in the Simon match but then he GOATed in the SF-F against Federer and Murray. That's what matters more. The only exception is a tournament in which the player in question had nice, clean matches throughout (like Djokovic's AO 2011 and 2008).

On to 2006 and 2019 Nadal. Both were pretty good runs by Nadal (again, 2019 gets points for cleaner early rounds, but not by a lot). 2006 Nadal played the much tougher opponent (2006 vs. 2019 Federer is no comparison at all) and he also pushed him harder despite the bagel set. The two middle sets where Nadal drew even with possibly Fed's best Wimbledon version (though I personally think 2003 was better) were more impressive than anything he did in the 2019 tournament.

Nadal didn't offer much resistance in the 2019 semi. His groundstrokes were not spectacularly impressive -- it was to the point where Fed was actually beating him in the longer rallies. He won one 6-1 set, but from watching the match, it was clear that Fed practically gifted that one to him with how bad he was playing.

There's no real doubt in my mind that 2005-2007 Nadal was better on grass than 2017-2019 Nadal. My order of his best to worst grass court seasons from those years is as follows:

2007
2018
2006
2019
2017
2005
Click to expand...

In 2005, Nadal was not a force on grass.
:notworthy:
 
On clay I’d say youngdal was way better than oledal. On grass youngdal slightly ahead by virtue of 2007. On HC it’s oledal. So overall, it’s 2005-07 by a slight margin.

However, I would really like to know the thoughts of some true Nadal fans (not the weakeras, clayqueens and other fedhaters...Thanks)
 
clout said:
I might give current Rafa the edge in grass.

2018 = 2007: two matches that could've went either way. Simple case of an ATG player who is involved in so many big matches that they're bound to lose some tough ones

2019 > 2006: Lost to Fed in 4 sets both times but '19 felt a bit tighter. Eye test tells me Rafa was bit better of a grass court player last year than in 06 when he was probably just happy to reach the finals

2017 > 2005: Ironically, he lost to Muller each time but 2017 trumps 2005 as he lost what like 15-13 in the 5th or something along those lines. Rafa's level at Wimbledon that year was actually not too shabby, Muller just decided to turn into a bot.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with 2018 = 2007. The only matches where Nadal played like he did in that SF in 2018 are the 2007 and 2008 finals. He was spectacular in 2018.

I think 2019 = 2006 for me. He was just ok in both years for me. I think the movement around the court and explosiveness was better in 2006 (and he looked slower in 2019 than 2018) but he had a larger skillset in 2019, so it's kind of a draw.

Agree with 2017 being better than 2005. So based on this, the older Nadal on grass edges it.
 
clout said:
I might give current Rafa the edge in grass.

2018 = 2007: two matches that could've went either way. Simple case of an ATG player who is involved in so many big matches that they're bound to lose some tough ones

2019 > 2006: Lost to Fed in 4 sets both times but '19 felt a bit tighter. Eye test tells me Rafa was bit better of a grass court player last year than in 06 when he was probably just happy to reach the finals

2017 > 2005: Ironically, he lost to Muller each time but 2017 trumps 2005 as he lost what like 15-13 in the 5th or something along those lines. Rafa's level at Wimbledon that year was actually not too shabby, Muller just decided to turn into a bot.
Click to expand...
2006 Federer is also many times better than 2019 Federer, so not a surprise it was "a bit tighter". 2006 Federer would beat 2019 Nadal in straights.
 
NADALalot said:
There is a good chance 2005-07 Nadal would have lost to Medvedev in the US Open Final.
Medvedev is very crafty + athletic + great stamina, and only lost because 2019 Nadal was magnificent at the net.
Medvedev can absorb pace very well, so I don't think 2005-07 Nadal's aggression would have bothered Medvedev, and I don't think Medvedev would have minded playing long rallies.
Click to expand...
Good luck to Medvedev playing long rallies against 2005 Nadal. :D

Young Nadal even managed to outplay Coria from the baseline in Rome 2005 final, nobody was going to beat him by playing many long rallies. Med would need to be even more aggressive than he was in the actual USO final.
 
StrongRule said:
2006 Federer is also many times better than 2019 Federer, so not a surprise it was "a bit tighter". 2006 Federer would beat 2019 Nadal in straights.
Click to expand...

He should have beaten 2006 Nadal in straights. lol. The only reason that went 4 sets is because of the matchup and how often Nadal troubled Federer back then. 2011 or 2015 Djokovic would have blasted that Nadal off the court.
 
NoleFam said:
He should have beaten 2006 Nadal in straights. lol. The only reason that went 4 sets is because of the matchup and how often Nadal troubled Federer back then. 2011 or 2015 Djokovic would have blasted that Nadal off the court.
Click to expand...
Young Nadal fought until the end in every match. Even in matches where he was destroyed it usually looked like he tried his best and couldn't do any better. Can't say that about current Nadal.
 
StrongRule said:
Young Nadal fought until the end in every match. Even in matches where he was destroyed it usually looked like he tried his best and couldn't do any better. Can't say that about current Nadal.
Click to expand...

He was completely outmatched and shellshocked in that first set with peak Federer going at him like that. Yes he started to play better but Federer also cooled off a bit and the match got tighter, but all their matches were basically tight that year and that was against Federer in his most successful season. That speaks to the matchup itself.
 
NoleFam said:
He was completely outmatched and shellshocked in that first set with peak Federer going at him like that. Yes he started to play better but Federer also cooled off a bit and the match got tighter, but all their matches were basically tight that year and that was against Federer in his most successful season. That speaks to the matchup itself.
Click to expand...
2019 Nadal would probably just lose like 6-1 6-2 6-4, something like this.
 
Third Serve said:
If you'd like, I'll explain further since you need the extra information. You also don't quite get the point.

Let's use your methodology. 2007 Nadal was quicker, more explosive, and much better at getting to balls than his older self (though his older self has a better serve and hit flatter shots). His Wimbledon 2007 run was probably his third best Wimbledon campaign, because he was good enough to force prime Federer to a deciding set in what was one of the best Wimbledon finals of all time. That scores huge points for 2007 because he proved that he could trouble the top grass player in the world -- heck, he even played better in the first four sets. He played very well in 2018 as well (and it's probably his fourth best Wimbledon campaign) and played a great SF match, but I don't think that one was as high-quality as the 2007 final. And it was also against a weaker opponent in Djokovic.

Don't get the pitchforks out because I called Djokovic a weaker opponent; that's a true statement on grass courts. He's not as good as prime Federer on the surface.

2018 gets extra points for being cleaner in the early rounds, but I rate performance in the later rounds against the better opponents more highly. It's why I consider Djokovic's 2016 AO run to be an excellent win. He was pretty sub-par in the Simon match but then he GOATed in the SF-F against Federer and Murray. That's what matters more. The only exception is a tournament in which the player in question had nice, clean matches throughout (like Djokovic's AO 2011 and 2008).

On to 2006 and 2019 Nadal. Both were pretty good runs by Nadal (again, 2019 gets points for cleaner early rounds, but not by a lot). 2006 Nadal played the much tougher opponent (2006 vs. 2019 Federer is no comparison at all) and he also pushed him harder despite the bagel set. The two middle sets where Nadal drew even with possibly Fed's best Wimbledon version (though I personally think 2003 was better) were more impressive than anything he did in the 2019 tournament.

Nadal didn't offer much resistance in the 2019 semi. His groundstrokes were not spectacularly impressive -- it was to the point where Fed was actually beating him in the longer rallies. He won one 6-1 set, but from watching the match, it was clear that Fed practically gifted that one to him with how bad he was playing.

There's no real doubt in my mind that 2005-2007 Nadal was better on grass than 2017-2019 Nadal. My order of his best to worst grass court seasons from those years is as follows:

2007
2018
2006
2019
2017
2005
Click to expand...
I don't think a Nadal who is going 5 sets with Robert Kendrick and Mikhail Youzhy in 2006-2007 is a sure bet to beat the Nadal of 2017-2019 on Wimbledon grass. The Nadal of the Djokovic match in 2018 Wimbledon SF would be very very difficult for 06-07 Nadal. Not sure why you're talking as if young Nadal was a guaranteed favourite. He is absolutely nothing close to a favourite over Nadal of today on grass.
 
StrongRule said:
Good luck to Medvedev playing long rallies against 2005 Nadal. :D

Young Nadal even managed to outplay Coria from the baseline in Rome 2005 final, nobody was going to beat him by playing many long rallies. Med would need to be even more aggressive than he was in the actual USO final.
Click to expand...
Didn't 2005 Nadal get starched by James Blake at the US Open? And then lost again at the US Open in 2006 to Youzhny? LOL
 
NoleFam said:
No way he loses that badly. 2019 Nadal has much more skills and tennis savvy than 2006 Nadal.
Click to expand...
I can't trust 2019 Nadal in a big match. 2006 Federer would probably dominate 2019 Nadal even on clay. (given Nadal's level during most of the 2019 clay season this would be unavoidable)
 
87978063794c7173069ac6576a639ddb.jpg
 
StrongRule said:
I can't trust 2019 Nadal in a big match. 2006 Federer would probably dominate 2019 Nadal even on clay. (given Nadal's level during most of the 2019 clay season this would be unavoidable)
Click to expand...

Well 2019 Nadal was nothing special on clay (outside of Rome) and some matches at RG so I wouldn't doubt Federer would have been beating him. Dominating is another matter entirely.
 
clout said:
17-19 Rafa has clearly accomplished wayyyy more, is more consistent at the majors, and far more versatile of a player. 05-07 Rafa was better at BO3, winning long matches, and was explosive asf.

17-19 Rafa was better on fast surfaces. 05-07 Rafa was untouchable on clay.

17-19 Rafa has the edge over the rest of the field but 05-07 Rafa matches up better with Fedovic
Click to expand...

What fast surfaces do you speak of? Youngdal was better on grass. Canada isn't any fast. Modern AO I guess.
 
clout said:
I might give current Rafa the edge in grass.

2018 = 2007: two matches that could've went either way. Simple case of an ATG player who is involved in so many big matches that they're bound to lose some tough ones

2019 > 2006: Lost to Fed in 4 sets both times but '19 felt a bit tighter. Eye test tells me Rafa was bit better of a grass court player last year than in 06 when he was probably just happy to reach the finals
Click to expand...

Eye test tells you 2006 Federer = 2019 Federer at Wimbledon? WHAT?
 
Mike Sams said:
I don't think a Nadal who is going 5 sets with Robert Kendrick and Mikhail Youzhy in 2006-2007 is a sure bet to beat the Nadal of 2017-2019 on Wimbledon grass. The Nadal of the Djokovic match in 2018 Wimbledon SF would be very very difficult for 06-07 Nadal. Not sure why you're talking as if young Nadal was a guaranteed favourite. He is absolutely nothing close to a favourite over Nadal of today on grass.
Click to expand...
And the same likewise. The Nadal of the 2007 final would be very very difficult for 2018-2019 Nadal.
 
DSH said:
Correct, compare Nadal's performances and effort in both matches.
Which one do you prefer?
:sneaky:
Click to expand...
I’m only pointing out that that comparison is basically moot because neither version of Nadal really did anything at Wimbledon.
 
Third Serve said:
And the same likewise. The Nadal of the 2007 final would be very very difficult for 2018-2019 Nadal.
Click to expand...
Remember that this thread is covering Nadal's 2005-2007 vs Nadal 2017-2019. Not just Nadal's grass results. You can pick and choose any part of his career and make a case for it. But no point in arguing unless someone invents a time machine. :-D
 
NoleFam said:
Well 2019 Nadal was nothing special on clay (outside of Rome) and some matches at RG so I wouldn't doubt Federer would have been beating him. Dominating is another matter entirely.
Click to expand...
Federer of any year would lose to Nadal of any year at RG. Federer doesn't have the mental strength to take 3 sets off Nadal on Philip Chatrier.
2011 RG proved that. Nadal was mentally shaken and unsure of himself in that tournament and still Federer got broken and lost the first set despite being way in the lead and having set points. LOL
 
Mike Sams said:
Federer of any year would lose to Nadal of any year at RG. Federer doesn't have the mental strength to take 3 sets off Nadal on Philip Chatrier.
2011 RG proved that. Nadal was mentally shaken and unsure of himself in that tournament and still Federer got broken and lost the first set despite being way in the lead and having set points. LOL
Click to expand...

I was talking about outside of RG in the clay Masters.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Eye test tells you 2006 Federer = 2019 Federer at Wimbledon? WHAT?
Click to expand...
Well obviously not lol. But Rafa literally had no chance of winning 06, really getting to the finals was an achievement in itself (he'd never made it past the R16 at a non-clay slam up until that point). 2019 Rafa was far from his best but his game just seemed a bit better than it was in 06
 
NoleFam said:
Totally agree with 2018 = 2007. The only matches where Nadal played like he did in that SF in 2018 are the 2007 and 2008 finals. He was spectacular in 2018.

I think 2019 = 2006 for me. He was just ok in both years for me. I think the movement around the court and explosiveness was better in 2006 (and he looked slower in 2019 than 2018) but he had a larger skillset in 2019, so it's kind of a draw.

Agree with 2017 being better than 2005. So based on this, the older Nadal on grass edges it.
Click to expand...
2018 was probably his 4th best performance at Wimbledon behind 2008, 2010 and 2007. Him and Nole were simply bullying each other all throughout the court for like 4-5 hours and really it was anyone's game till the very end. Just like the 2019 Wimbledon, Novak just happened to play better on the "big" points.

I put 2019 above 2006 since it seemed like he had more tools to actually win the tournament, he just didn't execute the way he wanted to. In 2006, there was no chance in hell he was going to win as he was going up against peak Federer while Rafa was a teen who had never made it to such a stage outside RG.
 
Last edited:
NADALalot said:
There is a good chance 2005-07 Nadal would have lost to Medvedev in the US Open Final.
Medvedev is very crafty + athletic + great stamina, and only lost because 2019 Nadal was magnificent at the net.
Medvedev can absorb pace very well, so I don't think 2005-07 Nadal's aggression would have bothered Medvedev, and I don't think Medvedev would have minded playing long rallies.
Click to expand...
2005-07 Nadal wouldn't even have got a chance to play against Medvedev in the final.
 
clout said:
Well obviously not lol. But Rafa literally had no chance of winning 06, really getting to the finals was an achievement in itself (he'd never made it past the R16 at a non-clay slam up until that point). 2019 Rafa was far from his best but his game just seemed a bit better than it was in 06
Click to expand...

How little you think of Fed's grass peak if you think a good Nadal should have possibly beaten him. Like 2019dal would even take a set, since peak Federer isn't gifting garbage sets to regroup.
 
junior74 said:
They have increased price money way way way beyond inflation, and many posters have pointed this out.

Yet you continue spreading this like it's a "truth". It's disappointing, because you always pretend to be factual.
Click to expand...
Increasing prize money is a sign of higher level.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Djokovic vs Nadal
Replies
15
Views
721
Rago
Rago
clout
  • Poll Poll
Who was the greater player in the 2000s (2000-2009): Roddick or Djokovic?
Replies
15
Views
762
FRV4
F
clout
Nadal and Djokovic have had ATG careers since turning 3
Replies
21
Views
780
-NN-
-NN-
clout
(Edited thread): Nadal and Djokovic have had ATG careers since turning 30
Replies
0
Views
235
clout
clout
clout
  • Poll Poll
Is Alcaraz already greater than Andy Murray?
14 15 16
Replies
752
Views
14K
Jono123
Jono123
Back
Top