who was stronger at Roland Garros (including Olympics) between 2005-09 Federer and 2020-24 Djokovic?

stronger at Roland Garros?


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Yes tennis for Djokovic fans began in 2011 and clay tennis for Federer began after RG 2005. Everything before that doesn't count.

Clearly, but don't talk about the hypocrisy there, because this sort of stuff can only be used against Djokovic.

But here is the thing, if tennis did exist before 2011....then why are people forgetting that Djokovic also dealt with Nadal at RG from 2006 to 2008?
 
Achievement wise yes, but I think you can far more easily argue Fed peaked higher on clay than Novak peaking higher on grass, so I can at least understand seeing it through that lens. Consistency wise it's just such a no-contest that arguing for Fed on clay will always be an uphill battle, basically hinging on the idea RG09 was somehow a murderer's row + RG11 and CIE arguments
Pretty much impossible to argue Fed peaked higher on clay given their respective records vs Nadal even before "CIE". I think Djokovic through 2016 is already well clear of Fed on clay Djokovic 2.0 is just icing on the cake. The statistical edge he has is huge Pheasant dropped some stats comparing 11-16 Djo to 05-09 Fed on clay and it's just not close. Djokovic is just a much better clay player and that should be obvious even before looking at how much better his record is given his physical superiority and solidity of both groundstroke wings. Roger never winning Rome or MC vs 8 for Djokovic (the two tournaments most similar to RG) should be a pretty big hint.

I think the argument to be made for Novak on grass is much easier (though still wrong). He has more wins over ATGs in his runs if W 2020 isnt cancelled he has his own 5 peat and they're tied on 8. For 5 of Roger's 8 his toughest comp was 1 slammers who never won on grass (4x Roddick 1x Cilic). For Novak he beat Fedal for 5/7. Include Sinner it's 6/7. Again I don't agree with these takes but basically the only thing you can say for Roger vs Novak is he won RG 11. Which I think can be countered very easily and also hinging your entire case on one match is stupid I think pretty much everyone would agree with that. Because outside of RG 11 Djokovic has the edge on him in every single way.
 
Clearly, but don't talk about the hypocrisy there, because this sort of stuff can only be used against Djokovic.

But here is the thing, if tennis did exist before 2011....then why are people forgetting that Djokovic also dealt with Nadal at RG from 2006 to 2008?
Good question. Posters like this one love to throw around that 05-08 timeframe but seem to forget Djokovic was also playing him in 06-08. It's something else that seems to be erased from their memory.
 
Yep. Apparently Djokovic never won anything legitimately in his life ever.
Because some of these guys thought he'd max out at 7 Slams so he overachieved, according to them, for another 9 years. Remember when he won his 3rd Wimbledon and some said he wasn't worth that and should still be on 1 or 2 max? Lol.
 
Good question. Posters like this one love to throw around that 05-08 timeframe but seem to forget Djokovic was also playing him in 06-08. It's something else that seems to be erased from their memory.
yes, nole played 29 times rafa on clay, 10 at RG. fed 16 and 6! and rafa won his first RG05! did not even play in 03-04 when fed already was on his top and nole just turn pro.
 
Statistically, as I showed before, 2020-2024 Djoker >>2011-16 Djoker >> 2005-2009 Federer.

With my eye test combined with a slight adjustment to the era’s strength, I’d go 2011-16 Djoker >>2005-09 Federer > 2020-2024 Djoker. I said before that I completely understand if people pick 2020-2024 Djoker over 2005-2009 Fed. I just can’t do it for subjective reasons. I think that most fans, including Djoker fans, underrate how good Djoker was from 2020-2024. It took a couple of ATG players in their prime to stop that old warrior.

2004 was a great version of Federer on clay. He had great wins over strong clay players named Coria and Moya. His DR was .01 away from the best in his career. His winning pct on clay was in his top-3. 2004 was clearly a peak clay year for Fed. Unfortunately, one-hip Kuerten caught 2025 Djoker in a bottle and stomped Fed in Rolland Garros. This was probably a one-off for that version of Kuerten. But it happened. I won’t use that match to define Fed on clay, just like I won’t use Sinner’s 2026 AO semi match to define him, nor will I use 2011’s FO semi to define Djoker on clay(Fed in 2011 was still healthy and relatively young). But my point stands. Great players can step up, even while not at their “peak” and put up a blockbuster match once in a while. There’s a reason why they won all of those titles in their younger years. Great players in their prime don’t go undefeated. They will lose occasionally. If they didn’t, then tennis would be an extremely boring sport.
 
I think that most fans, including Djoker fans, underrate how good Djoker was from 2020-2024. It took a couple of ATG players in their prime to stop that old warrior.
Totally agree. Especially in 2021, there's no doubt in my mind that he'd have given any great clay courter of years bygone the fight of their lives.
Great players can step up, even while not ant their “peak” and put up a blockbuster match once in a while. There’s a reason why they won all of those titles in their younger years. Great players in their prime don’t go undefeated.
We're all guilty to some extent of doing this, where we think of something as totally impossible because it didn't happen. Like Fed beating Rafa at RG. Or Djokovic beating Sinner at a slam after 2023 (until it happened, and now we have to adjust the narratives). The reality is that anyone can beat anyone on a given day, and that's why we always have to stay respectful of the winner's efforts no matter how obvious of a favourite they appear to be.
 
Because some of these guys thought he'd max out at 7 Slams so he overachieved, according to them, for another 9 years. Remember when he won his 3rd Wimbledon and some said he wasn't worth that and should still be on 1 or 2 max? Lol.

Yes, because these guy are the oracle on who deserves to win what. :)
 
We get told this a lot, but the Federer one is often swept under the rug.

Lets not forget, Djokovic had an ATG from his own generation who he played 60 matches against....they are only 11 months apart.

Nadal came into Federer's career when Federer was a few months from turning 24,, that is not the same, Federer was on the tour back in 1998 and played his first RG in 1999 when Nadal was 13.

Federer came from a genernation where courts and ie playing styles were still very much polarised. 2hbh wasnt the defacto technique and SnV was still a dominant playing style. Feds game was more tailored toward grass/hc in his early years and only post 05 did he really tailor his clay game heavily to be more consistent at the expense of his grass/hc game (imo).

Yes he could have done more but it took awhile for Fed to "get it" (his was a mental menance also in his young years) and go to the next level, similar to Djokovic back in 2011.

I think timing plays a big role and Djokovic has had the perfect timing to then end as the current slam winner. He was always the chaser and never had to deal with young guns til very late into his career. I tend to think Fed had it the hardest via pioneering the path forward on how to do well beyond 30s (never done before in open era), adjusting his game to slowing conditions on all courts and having to deal with not just 1 younger ATG but 2.

As a matter of fact, you put Fed in Djokovics shoe very high chance he ends up the slam winner by cleaning up the latter part of their career. Nadal is abit of an odd one because his longetivity isnt quite like the other two but if he was in Fed shoes (star 5years earlier) he'd be collectin WB/RG trophies early on his career like Borg so maybe that compensates for it.
 
Federer came from a genernation where courts and ie playing styles were still very much polarised. 2hbh wasnt the defacto technique and SnV was still a dominant playing style. Feds game was more tailored toward grass/hc in his early years and only post 05 did he really tailor his clay game heavily to be more consistent at the expense of his grass/hc game (imo).

Yes he could have done more but it took awhile for Fed to "get it" (his was a mental menance also in his young years) and go to the next level, similar to Djokovic back in 2011.

I think timing plays a big role and Djokovic has had the perfect timing to then end as the current slam winner. He was always the chaser and never had to deal with young guns til very late into his career. I tend to think Fed had it the hardest via pioneering the path forward on how to do well beyond 30s (never done before in open era), adjusting his game to slowing conditions on all courts and having to deal with not just 1 younger ATG but 2.

As a matter of fact, you put Fed in Djokovics shoe very high chance he ends up the slam winner by cleaning up the latter part of their career. Nadal is abit of an odd one because his longetivity isnt quite like the other two but if he was in Fed shoes (star 5years earlier) he'd be collectin WB/RG trophies early on his career like Borg so maybe that compensates for it.

It is true that all players are a product of their own time, but we shouldn't forget Federer grew up on clay courts....but his issue was the same as Becker's and Edberg who also played a lot on clay growing up, they simply didn't take well to it. Now that is not a bad thing, but it can also come back to bite you. It is well known Federer lost his first 11 professional matches on clay, so he truly had turned himself into a more fast court player.

Federer's first big title was on clay, lets not forget that, he won Hamburg 2002 and he also made the final of Rome 2003. He could play, but he simply couldn't get his game to work at the elite level on it, heck even in 2005 he was playing his hard court style of tennis there, 2006 was where you actually saw a more clay style version of Federer, but it came too late, his window to achieve success early on was shut down, and now he had to deal with a peaking Nadal.

I do agree that Federer did some pioneering, but I don't think this was all Federer, I think he took a lot of it from watching Agassi. Lets not forget, Agassi was winning slams into his 30s, and even played Federer himself in the USO 2005 final when he was 35 and 11 years older than Federer. Agassi was showing Federer the way first....Nadal then followed Federer, and Djokovic followed Nadal.

Maybe Federer wins the slam race if he starts the last of the three, but maybe he doesn't. Federer was a hot head and quite volatile in his early days, and quite honestly that young Federer would struggle immensely if he was dealing with 2010 and 2011 versions of Djokodal if he was teenager....I mean, Agassi schooled him at USO 2001 when he was 20.

We will never know the real truth, everything happened the way it happened in the end.
 
I think timing plays a big role and Djokovic has had the perfect timing to then end as the current slam winner. He was always the chaser and never had to deal with young guns til very late into his career. I tend to think Fed had it the hardest via pioneering the path forward on how to do well beyond 30s (never done before in open era), adjusting his game to slowing conditions on all courts and having to deal with not just 1 younger ATG but 2.
My view too. To some extent you can say Djokodal squashed any potential young guns of the 90s, but the reality is that these guys never had the consistency or the weapons to frequently get the better of ATGs at slams. Federer certainly had it the hardest of the three on average in his 30s given the talent that followed, but he was also less consistent against the field than what we've seen from Djokovic and I don't think you can entirely put that down to the weak era in the latter case.

Fed also had three kingdoms mostly to himself at the slams in his prime years as none of his age peers were anywhere near as consistent as him even if they could be formidable forces on their day. I think it says a lot that even as a late bloomer he could still rack up 11 slams at 25, unlike the Borgs and Nadals who were there from their teen years.

To be perfectly honest I think he wins about the same amount if he was Djokodal's age peer, just in a more staggered distribution instead of having his kingdoms. But in that scenario there would be fewer slams to go around in theory, so maybe he would end up on top. Who can say
 
Federer came from a genernation where courts and ie playing styles were still very much polarised. 2hbh wasnt the defacto technique and SnV was still a dominant playing style. Feds game was more tailored toward grass/hc in his early years and only post 05 did he really tailor his clay game heavily to be more consistent at the expense of his grass/hc game (imo).

Yes he could have done more but it took awhile for Fed to "get it" (his was a mental menance also in his young years) and go to the next level, similar to Djokovic back in 2011.

I think timing plays a big role and Djokovic has had the perfect timing to then end as the current slam winner. He was always the chaser and never had to deal with young guns til very late into his career. I tend to think Fed had it the hardest via pioneering the path forward on how to do well beyond 30s (never done before in open era), adjusting his game to slowing conditions on all courts and having to deal with not just 1 younger ATG but 2.

As a matter of fact, you put Fed in Djokovics shoe very high chance he ends up the slam winner by cleaning up the latter part of their career. Nadal is abit of an odd one because his longetivity isnt quite like the other two but if he was in Fed shoes (star 5years earlier) he'd be collectin WB/RG trophies early on his career like Borg so maybe that compensates for it.
Federer versatility is proven when he won the master title at Madrid on blue clay
 
Both undefeated against non-Nadal players.

2005-09 Federer

1 French Open title
0-4 vs Nadal
30-0 vs non-Nadal players
3 wins against top5s
5 wins against top10s
9 wins against top20s

2020-24 Djokovic

2 French Open titles
1 Olympic Gold
2-2 vs Nadal
32-0 vs non-Nadal players
5 wins against top5s
7 wins against top10s
13 wins against top20s
Djokovic, obviously!
 
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Federer. Simple reason..look at their respective movement around the court. Federer was miles quicker. I'd argue Djokovic 2006-2009 was better than Djokovic 2020-2024. Movement in tennis is everything
WINNING is the most important thing. Novak won RG 3 times, Roger-1. Rome and Madrid are also important clay tournaments, how many of those did Roger win? Novak won Rome 6 time, beating Rafa in 2 finals. He won Madrid 3 times on clay.
 
Wins over top5s and top10s at French Open:

2005-09 Federer 3 and 5
2012-16 Djokovic 4 and 7
2019-23 Djokovic 5 and 7

Djokovic's two primes are both better than Federer's only prime.
 
Pretty much impossible to argue Fed peaked higher on clay given their respective records vs Nadal even before "CIE". I think Djokovic through 2016 is already well clear of Fed on clay Djokovic 2.0 is just icing on the cake. The statistical edge he has is huge Pheasant dropped some stats comparing 11-16 Djo to 05-09 Fed on clay and it's just not close. Djokovic is just a much better clay player and that should be obvious even before looking at how much better his record is given his physical superiority and solidity of both groundstroke wings. Roger never winning Rome or MC vs 8 for Djokovic (the two tournaments most similar to RG) should be a pretty big hint.

I think the argument to be made for Novak on grass is much easier (though still wrong). He has more wins over ATGs in his runs if W 2020 isnt cancelled he has his own 5 peat and they're tied on 8. For 5 of Roger's 8 his toughest comp was 1 slammers who never won on grass (4x Roddick 1x Cilic). For Novak he beat Fedal for 5/7. Include Sinner it's 6/7. Again I don't agree with these takes but basically the only thing you can say for Roger vs Novak is he won RG 11. Which I think can be countered very easily and also hinging your entire case on one match is stupid I think pretty much everyone would agree with that. Because outside of RG 11 Djokovic has the edge on him in every single way.
Djokovic was slightly better than Federer on clay till like 2021 then the gap extended substantially from there on IMO.

Before 2021 they were comparable at RG but Djokovic was better in masters overall which gave him a edge.
 
Wins over top5s and top10s at French Open:

2005-09 Federer 3 and 5
2012-16 Djokovic 4 and 7
2019-23 Djokovic 5 and 7

Djokovic's two primes are both better than Federer's only prime.
noles winns including 2 vs rafa and 1 vs raz not counting OG!

the myth of fed CC greatness is based on his loses to rafa. yes loses in the finals but still pretty comfortable loses and one wins vs nole! yes in noles peak but still just one win!

nole won 3 RG from 7 finals, OG and 11 CC masters winning all big clay tournaments.
fed won 1 RG from 5 finals and 6 masters, never won at MC or rome.

noles CC W% is higher,
noles CC h2h vs rafa is 9-20 (all on big events) and 2-8 at RG
feds CC h2h vs rafa is 2-14 and 0-6 at RG

AND fed did not win RG even in his peak when rafa did not even participate, gaudio won it!
 
WINNING is the most important thing. Novak won RG 3 times, Roger-1. Rome and Madrid are also important clay tournaments, how many of those did Roger win? Novak won Rome 6 time, beating Rafa in 2 finals. He won Madrid 3 times on clay.
So Alcaraz better than Djokovic at Wimbledon then?
 
Djokovic was slightly better than Federer on clay till like 2021 then the gap extended substantially from there on IMO.

Before 2021 they were comparable at RG but Djokovic was better in masters overall which gave him a edge.
Yep. Hard not to think 2021 was the nail in the coffin since aside from 2>1 it meant Djokovic had beaten Nadal enroute to all the big clay titles at least once, meanwhile Fed hadn't even captured all of them in Nadal-less fields
 
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Djokovic was slightly better than Federer on clay till like 2021 then the gap extended substantially from there on IMO.

Before 2021 they were comparable at RG but Djokovic was better in masters overall which gave him an edge.
Yeah I mean I think if Djokovic had retired in 2016 it still would not be very close
 
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Yeah I mean I think if Djokovic had retired in 2016 it still would not be very close
I knew what you were trying to say. Personally I think it was fairly close then myself.

Curious to how you would have seen it before RG 2016 a tie maybe?
 
Probably Novak still ahead Fed would have to have a meaningful longevity edge for him to be ahead because he's just not as good on the surface
Yeah I was tempted to say you would have Djokovic ahead even without his first RG but I went equal to be safe.
 
Federer was not hungry enough after Australian Open 2010 as he got almost all Pete Sampras important records. Djokovic on the other hand just started his journey
 
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