Who was the best indoor surface player ever?

[Winner Sinner]

Who was the best indoor surface player ever?

I have always thought that in an ideal world tennis should be an indoor contextualized sport like sports such as basketball, volleyball, handball, five-a-side football, unlike outdoor sports such as soccer, rugby, American football, baseball, which are also conceived outdoors due to a question of space, in fact building indoor structures for sports that require huge spaces was obviously not sustainable.

Having made this digression, again to avoid controversy, in the survey I limited myself to including 8 players in the top 10 of the players who have won the most indoor tournaments, obviously adding Djokovic who with his 7 ATP Finals plus the 7 Masters 1000 in Paris -Bercy obviously cannot stay out of the nominations.

The top 10* of players who have won the most indoor tournaments in history is this;

1. Jimmy Connors 56
2. John McEnroe 52
3. Ivan Lendl 42
4. Rod Laver 30
Boris Becker 30
6. Roger Federer 26
7. Björn Borg 24
Stan Smith 24
Arthur Ashe 24
10. Pete Sampras 23

*It is clear that it is a ranking conditioned by the fact that in the last century much more indoor games were played compared to recent eras.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Here are two more rankings;

Big titles won on indoor surface;

1. John McEnroe 18
2. Novak Đoković 14
3. Boris Becker 12
4. Jimmy Connors 11
Ivan Lendl 11
6. Rod Laver 10
7. Pete Sampras9
8. Ilie Năstase 7
9. Roger Federer 6
10. Björn Borg 5

Winning percentage* on indoor surface;

1. John McEnroe 85.30 (423-73)
2. Ivan Lendl 82.97 (341–70)
3. Jimmy Connors 81.68 (487-110)
4. Roger Federer 81.00 (298-70)
5. Björn Borg 80,60 (224–54)
6. Boris Becker 79,84 (297–75)
7. Novak Đoković 79.77 (198–50)
8. Rod Laver 78,30 (231–64)
9. Pete Sampras 77,74 (213–61)
10. Andy Murray 74.20 (155-54)

* = minimum 100 wins

 

[Winner Sinner]

I was very surprised to see that McEnroe leads the list of big titles, with 18.
Aside from the end-of-year masters, what is included within those 18 big titles?

 

[buscemi]

McEnroe. Highest winning percentage. Most big titles. Most WTF + WCT Finals titles. Second most overall titles to Connors, but he was 10-4 against him in indoor matches.

 

[Djokodalerer31]

I was very surprised to see that McEnroe leads the list of big titles, with 18.
Aside from the end-of-year masters, what is included within those 18 big titles?

Certain tournaments of "grand prix super series" category were considered masters 1000 equivalent prior to 1990 and thus were considered big titles too, if i am not mistaken McEnroe won his fair share of those ones as well...

 

[GRASScaraz]

Borg

 

[buscemi]

I was very surprised to see that McEnroe leads the list of big titles, with 18.
Aside from the end-of-year masters, what is included within those 18 big titles?

I was thinking 3 WTF + 5 WCT Finals + 4 U.S. Pro Indoors (Philadelphia) + 5 Wembley + 4 Stockholm. But that's 21.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Borg

Naaaaah

Motivation?

 

[Winner Sinner]

I was thinking 3 WTF + 5 WCT Finals + 4 U.S. Pro Indoors (Philadelphia) + 5 Wembley + 4 Stockholm. But that's 21.

So Wikipedia reports incorrect data?

 

[Winner Sinner]

However, I don't know if he was the best ever, but no one was as dominant on indoor surfaces as Lendl at his peak.

 

[NatF]

Probably Mac. If we're talking best, the top 6 for me in the Open Era are Mac, Becker, PETE, Lendl, Fed and Djokovic. All time I'd add Laver, Rosewall and Pancho considering indoors was a huge part of the pro scene in the 60's.

 

[buscemi]

So Wikipedia reports incorrect data?

I think it's subjective regarding what's considered a "big" title before 1990.

 

[buscemi]

However, I don't know if he was the best ever, but no one was as dominant on indoor surfaces as Lendl at his peak.

I think McEnroe was undefeated on indoor carpet from September 1983-April 1985, something like 75 straight (Edit: 65 straight). For me, that would be the highest level of dominance.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Murray is on 16 indoor titles.

Among the active players of those I checked(excluding Djokovic);

Zverev 8
Medvedev 8
Sinner 6

 

[Winner Sinner]

I think McEnroe was undefeated on indoor carpet from September 1983-April 1985, something like 75 straight (Edit: 65 straight). For me, that would be the highest level of dominance.

Among Lendl's records

-Longest indoor winning streak: 66 matches between April 1981 (defeated by Tomáš Šmíd in Frankfurt) and January 1983 (defeated by McEnroe in the final in Philadelphia).

-5 victories at the Masters Cup (later equaled by Pete Sampras and surpassed by Roger Federer and Novak Đoković) and nine consecutive finals (absolute record).

 

[NoleFam]

The top win percentages against the top 10 on indoor hardcourt and indoor carpet:

1. Djokovic - 76.34%
2. Becker - 72.64
3. Borg - 71.43%
4. Laver - 69.9%
5. Sampras - 69.77%
6. Lendl - 69.39%
7. Federer - 68.22%
8. McEnroe - 66.96%

Even though McEnroe isn't at the top of the list here, I would give him #1 based on big titles count. Djokovic is #2 and Becker is #3.

 

[buscemi]

Among Lendl's records

-Longest indoor winning streak: 66 matches between April 1981 (defeated by Tomáš Šmíd in Frankfurt) and January 1983 (defeated by McEnroe in the final in Philadelphia).

-5 victories at the Masters Cup (later equaled by Pete Sampras and surpassed by Roger Federer and Novak Đoković) and nine consecutive finals (absolute record).

Interesting that Lendl might have a longer consecutive match win streak by one. I'll have to check that math. By my count, McEnroe is 8-6 vs. Lendl indoors, which is another factor slightly in his favor.

 

[Neptune]

Big titles won on indoor surface;

1. John McEnroe 18 (3 tour finals, 5 alt. finals, 10 masters equivalent)
2. Novak Đoković 14
3. Boris Becker 12
4. Jimmy Connors 11
Ivan Lendl 11
6. Rod Laver 10
7. Pete Sampras9
8. Ilie Năstase 7
9. Roger Federer 6
10. Björn Borg 5

Top5/10 wins in big tournaments:
vs Top5
Becker 35-16
Nole 29-13
Lendl 26-13
Fed 26-15
Mac 25-15

vs Top10
Nole 67-20
Becker 56-20
Fed 53-23
Pete 51-21
Lendl 42-17
Mac 42-18

So vote should go to one of the Mac/Becker/Nole

Indoor Big​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
Mac​	40 (25-15) 62.50%​	26.32%​	60 (42-18) 70.00%​	39.47%​	92 (80-12) 86.96%​	60.53%​	152 (122-30) 80.26%​
Becker​	51 (35-16) 68.63%​	34.69%​	76 (56-20) 73.68%​	51.70%​	71 (57-14) 80.28%​	48.30%​	147 (113-34) 76.87%​
Nole​	42 (29-13) 69.05%​	30.88%​	87 (67-20) 77.01%​	63.97%​	49 (39-10) 79.59%​	36.03%​	136 (106-30) 77.94%​

I compile the numbers, 64% of matches vs top10 just insane.

 

[Pheasant]

My vote goes to..............................Mac.

Shocker, said nobody ever.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

McEnroe. Highest winning percentage. Most big titles. Most WTF + WCT Finals titles. Second most overall titles to Connors, but he was 10-4 against him in indoor matches.

Was 3-5 vs Borg indoors. Pete and Becker have the highest level indoors of all times imho. Most successful ones are Mac and Lendl.

 

[buscemi]

Was 3-5 vs Borg indoors. Pete and Becker have the highest level indoors of all times imho. Most successful ones are Mac and Lendl.

I see 4-5, with McEnroe's wins coming in Stockholm, New Orleans, the WCT Finals, and Milan (in their last indoor match in 1981).

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Rosewall

i generally know what the arguments for Gonzalez and Laver are, but what are Rosewall's comparable accomplishments indoors? is it mostly about the French Pro and the WCT YEC?

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I see 4-5, with McEnroe's wins coming in Stockholm, New Orleans, the WCT Finals, and Milan (in their last indoor match in 1981).

You are right. I meant 3-5 on carpet. Indoors in general Mac has additionally won their first meeting in Stockholm 78 on indoor hard. For me indoors mostly equals carpet.

 

[Djokodalerer31]

My personal top-5 are: McEnroe -> Connors -> Lendl -> Federer -> Djokovic in that order...Federer and Djokovic are both in disadvantage of having significantly less indoors tournaments worth playing available in their era than there ever was in 70's and 80's (Almost half of the entire calendar in 70's and 80's had an indoor tournament of some sort, these days those barely make up 20%...)...otherwise Federer would already have topped this chart and Djokovic would be somewhere close too, maybe on the 3rd or 4th place...

 

[Winner Sinner]

How is the h2h on indoor surface Federer-Djokovic?

And how many on indoor surfaces can boast a positive record with Djokovic himself (one is sure Sinner even on a rather low number of challenges)?

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

My personal top-5 are: McEnroe -> Connors -> Lendl -> Federer -> Djokovic in that order...Federer and Djokovic are both in disadvantage of having significantly less indoors tournaments worth playing available in their era than there ever was in 70's and 80's...otherwise Federer would already have topped this chart and Djokovic would be somewhere close too, maybe on the 3rd or 4th place...

What is the argument for Connors > Lendl? And where is Pete in all this?

 

[Djokodalerer31]

What is the argument for Connors > Lendl? And where is Pete in all this?

56 titles versus 42...Sampras is exactly where you can see him, 10th place by total titles, 7th by big titles, and 9th by win rate...what else is a huge revelation to you?...Federer and especially Djokovic are way underrated, in the same circumstances that the likes of McEnroe, Connors or Lendl found themselves in back in 70's and 80's they would have won as many if not even more than any of them, but like i said they played in an era where indoors tournaments make up about 20% of the entire calendar, compared to 70's and 80's, which was almost balanced between indoors and outdoors...

 

[NoleFam]

My personal top-5 are: McEnroe -> Connors -> Lendl -> Federer -> Djokovic in that order...Federer and Djokovic are both in disadvantage of having significantly less indoors tournaments worth playing available in their era than there ever was in 70's and 80's (Almost half of the entire calendar in 70's and 80's had an indoor tournament of some sort, these days those barely make up 20%...)...otherwise Federer would already have topped this chart and Djokovic would be somewhere close too, maybe on the 3rd or 4th place...

Becker was 7-6 versus king Sampras indoors and has more big titles than him. He is missing from that list. Actually, I would put both there over Connors.

 

[nolefam_2024]

This is pretty subjective question as indoor has changed a lot. I have to go with winning %

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Becker was 7-6 versus king Sampras indoors and has more big titles than him. He is missing from that list. Actually, I would put both there over Connors.

Becker and Sampras are both ahead of Connors that should not even be debatable. Pete, for me is also ahead of Becker. The latter might be 7-6 but Pete won the more important matches.

 

[Pheasant]

Lendl was a true heavyweight on carpet. And he's about Mac's age as well(about 1 year apart). And yet, Mac was Lendl's daddy. Mac ended Lendl's winning streak on carpet at 51.

Tennis Abstract: Ivan Lendl Match Results, Splits, and Analysis

 

[NoleFam]

Becker and Sampras are both ahead of Connors that should not even be debatable. Pete, for me is also ahead of Becker. The latter might be 7-6 but Pete won the more important matches.

Did you see Becker's win percentage against the top 10? That, him having the 3rd most big titles, and the head to head edge over Sampras puts him ahead imo.

 

[buscemi]

i generally know what the arguments for Gonzalez and Laver are, but what are Rosewall's comparable accomplishments indoors? is it mostly about the French Pro and the WCT YEC?

Looking through his record, I see these as top line achievements:

-The French Pro Championship was played at Roland Garros every year, except 1963-1967. Rosewall won it 4/5 years from 1963-1967, beating Laver in the final every time;​

-Rosewall again beat Laver in back-to-back finals of the WCT Finals in 1971-1972, with the latter match considered by many to be the best match of all time;​

-Rosewall won the Wembley event five times during the pre-Open era, beating Segura x2 and Hoad x3 in finals. Then, in the first year of the Open Era, he won it again, beating Newcombe in the final.​

Honestly, that's pretty damned impressive.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Did you see Becker's win percentage against the top 10? That, him having the 3rd most big titles, and the head to head edge over Sampras puts him ahead imo.

Pete won the match where Becker was at his absolute best. Peak level those two are #1and #2. Pete was rather inconsistent but at his best he was close to unbeatable.

 

[buscemi]

Pete won the match where Becker was at his absolute best. Peak level those two are #1and #2. Pete was rather inconsistent but at his best he was close to unbeatable.

Close to unbeatable, with the exception being Stich in the 1993 WTF final

 

[Pheasant]

Rod Laver was 35-14, .714 vs the top-5 on carpet. And unfortunately, UTS only goes back to 1968(Open Era) for Laver ,which was his age-30 season. This is chopping off a large chunk of Laver's peak. note. Laver's age 30-34 seasons yielded a 29-6, .829 record vs the top-5 on carpet. That's not too shabby.

Laver is missing too much of his peak to be considered for #1 on this surface. But at his best, he was a stone-cold killer on that surface.

 

[NoleFam]

Pete won the match where Becker was at his absolute best. Peak level those two are #1and #2. Pete was rather inconsistent but at his best he was close to unbeatable.

Peak level is debatable but too hard to rank. I saw some of their matches but so long ago that I faintly remember them. I'd rather just look at how they dealt with players of their era and what they achieved. With that said, Sampras does have the edge 3-1 in big finals and 2-0 in Masters finals. They did split meetings I believe overall at the Masters though. Still, for me I go slightly with Becker but both would probably be in my top 5.

 

[fedfan24]

Federer. 10 Basel titles + 6 YEC during normal era of tennis. + highest peak ever at 03 YEC.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Close to unbeatable, with the exception being Stich in the 1993 WTF final

Yea that was not his best at all.

 

[buscemi]

Yea that was not his best at all.

In fairness, it was the only time Sampras made it through the RR stage w/out dropping a match, and he obliterated Medvedev in the SF. I think Stich gets some good credit for Sampras not looking great in that final.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

It's Pete I think.

Although Federer's performances in the YEC finals in 2003 and 2006 were legendary.

Honorable mention to peak Nalbandian, if only he had a good serve...

 

[Pheasant]

McEnroe played through a chunk of Borg's and all of Lendl's peak years on carpet. He also faced Connors a decent chunk of Connor's peak years. Those 4 players occupy the 4 out of the top 5 career winning pcts on indoor courts(Mac #1, Lendl #2, Connors #3, Borg #5). That is some ridicuous competition. And if that wasn't tough enough, He got to decline against Becker(6th highest career indoor winning pct ever).

 

[Pheasant]

Per Wiki, longest winning streak indoors:

#	Player	Years
66	Lendl	1981-83
53	McEnroe	1983-84
38	Djokovic	2012-15
35	Lendl	1985-86
33	Connors	1974-75

 

[Pheasant]

Per Wiki, best career winning pct indoors(minimum 100 matches played)

Record	Player
423-73, .853	McEnroe
341-70, .730	Lendl
487-110, .816	Connors
298-70, .810	Federer
224-54, .806	Borg
297-75, .798	Becker
198-50, .798	Djokovic
213-61, .777	Sampras

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Pete won the match where Becker was at his absolute best

i would think Becker's best indoors was more likely '88 YEC against Lendl

Federer's performances in the YEC finals in 2003

ermmm outdoors

Honorable mention to peak Nalbandian, if only he had a good serve...

peak Safin has the slight edge i think

 

[buscemi]

peak Safin has the slight edge i think

Of course, I'm taking peak Stich

 

[NoleFam]

i would think Becker's best indoors was more likely '88 YEC against Lendl

ermmm outdoors

peak Safin has the slight edge i think

Good call about 2003 being outdoors because I forget that sometimes too but peak Safin greater than peak Nalbandian? I don't know about that. Safin was great at Paris Masters and won 3 but never made a Year End Championship final. He got walloped by Sampras and Agassi in 2000 after he had broken through and won the USO by crushing Sampras. Nalbandian beat Nadal, Djokovic and Federer in succession to win the Madrid Masters 2007 and beat Federer to win WTF in 2005.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Of course, I'm taking peak Stich

i raise you peak Krajicek in Stuttgart (esp '98),,,

peak Safin greater than peak Nalbandian? I don't know about that. Safin was great at Paris Masters and won 3 but never made a Year End Championship final. He got walloped by Sampras and Agassi in 2000 after he had broken through and won the USO by crushing Sampras. Nalbandian beat Nadal, Djokovic and Federer in succession to win Madrid Masters 2007.

if Safin lost he wasn't peak !

anyway he had Madrid '04 along with Paris '00, '02, and '04, while Nalbandian had Madrid and Paris '07 along with YEC '05. i did a little all-surface comparison between the two some time back and i think Safin's wins were higher quality across the board

"When Nalbandian was playing at his best, he could beat anyone in the world on any surface."

i think to the extent this was true for Nalbandian, it was even more true for Safin, particularly on outdoor hard


Safin's best hard wins: Sampras in Canada '00, USO '00, and AO '02; Agassi in AO '04 and Madrid '04; Federer and Hewitt in AO '05


Safin's best carpet wins: Philippoussis in Paris '00, Hewitt in Paris '02


Safin's best clay wins: Agassi and Kuerten in RG '98


Safin's best grass win: Djokovic in Wimbly '08


Nalbandian's best hard wins: Federer in AO '03, Cinci '03, USO '03, Madrid '07, and Paris '07; Murray and Davydenko in Paris '08


Nalbandian's best carpet wins: Ljubicic, Davydenko, and Federer in YEC '05


Nalbandian's best clay wins: Safin in RG '04, Davydenko in RG '06


Nalbandian's best grass win: Hewitt in Davis Cup '05

 

[buscemi]

i raise you peak Krajicek in Stuttgart (esp '98),,,

Can I re-raise you with the 1992 Grand Slam Cup?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Per Wiki, longest winning streak indoors:

#	Player	Years
66	Lendl	1981-83
53	McEnroe	1983-84
38	Djokovic	2012-15
35	Lendl	1985-86
33	Connors	1974-75

Nole made mark here as well.