Who was the best indoor surface player ever?
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Drob
Hall of Fame
Hi Angrybirdstar:
Well, Lacoste won US Indoor in his only participation (1926) Defeated Vinnie Richards in quarters or semis and Borotra in finals. Borotra had defeated Tilden in the quarterfinal of this tournament, a match which which Tilden biographer Frank Deford nearly accurately called the first significant Tilden loss in five years (1922 loss to Johnston at PCC final was significant). A week later, Lacoste beat Tilden indoors at a USA-France International tie, along the lines of a Davis Cup tie - maybe like a football "friendly" but important - the combination caused shock waves. On a surprising number of occasions, Lacoste defeated Borotra in the finals of either of the two big French indoor tournaments, French Covered Court, or, more prominent back then, the Coupe Noel (a Paris Christmas event that Tilden played once, and I think twice). Admittedly, Lacoste played relatively little Indoor, so I suppose I am extrapolating, based on his short career.
So, Sedg. Not sure on his indoor results as amateur, which there would have been few events. His schedule would not have had him in USA for the US Indoor and don't recall if he played the British Covered Courts, which has pretty low prestige by then. Not a lot else indoor in amateurs at that time. As Professional: (1) a praiseworthy close record in WCS tour vs. Kramer in 1953 (most, nearly all matches played Indoors); (2) two Wembley championships, 1953, '58 (victories over Gonzalez in both); (3) very respectable record overall Indoors vs. Gorgo (see, for example, winning almost 40 percent of matches in 1954 WCS); (4) won three important tournaments Indoors in Australia during the 50s -- tournaments with all the BIGS of the pro tour (don't have ref. books to hand here as I am at the office so can't name them exactly, but they are the ones that have been mistakingly called The Australian Pro Indoor - I don't think they were called that, save maybe once); US Pro finalist a couple of times; a still-historically famous 1956 Wembley final loss to Gorgo; and has a handful of other pro indoor title, I believe. I guess the two Wembleys plus his overall competitiveness at Pro indoor tournaments was my reason to place him.
So, I am not wedded to Lacoste and Sedgman for the last two spots on fast-superfast. Let's take it up top-25. I am happy w my first 13, then:
14. Tilden
15. Vines
16. Richards
17. Lacoste
18. Ashe
19. Sedgman
20. Perry
21. Nastase
22. Stich
23. Segura
24. Cochet
25. Smith
.
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Drob
Hall of Fame
You both correct.
1988 Monster Match - possibly as great a match as any match posited as "Greatest".
1996 Heavyweight Championship of the World. Best Heavyweight Championship bout of my time, save The Thrilla in Manila.
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Drob
Hall of Fame
Excellent points, Gizo.
Drob
Hall of Fame
There is a great deal in McEnroe's favor. However, after 1977, the WCT Finals dropped from "Major" to roughly a Masters 1000 equivalent. It was no longer a season-determining event, WCT having folded into the larger tour. His five WCT is laudable but not "major". Moreover, at least one, and I think two, of Mac's 3 YECs were in a 12-man KO, w John getting first-round bye, so it was just three wins. Lendl, in contrast only had one of these KO out of his five and he posted three undefeated YEC in the usual RR/SF/F format.
However, this necessary adjustment against McEnroe's record is compensated to some degree (and maybe great degree) by his indoor exploits at Davis Cup. See @Gizo post above. I would have to look more closely at Mac's stellar DC record to see how much of that success was Indoor, but I am sure it was hefty or even most.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Addressed the WCT Finals above.
In approximate (close to exact) terms:
For Mac: In addition to your "Other 'Big' Titles" I would addd: 1 EEC (Antwerp), 1 Brussels Donnay, and 1 Challenge of Cahmpions = 3 + 13 = 16
For Lendl, I would add: 1 Molson Lite, 1 Lombardia, 2 Wembley, 1 Challenge of Champions, 1 Stuttgart, 4 EEC, and I have him for 1 additional Tokyo (3 Tokyo to your 2 Tokyo) = 11 + 4 = 15
At the very least, Lendl's win over McEnroe and the 1985 European Community Championships (a/k/a Golden Racquet) has to count in their indoor head-to-head = 8-7 McEnroe.
And Lendl 66-match win streak indoors.
It is very close.
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Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Grand Slam Cup was for bums, that crap counts for nothing, that is sufficient, much less WCT or ATP finals and the fact, that it was discontinued after only one full decade is a clear proof of that, it was short lived because not enough top ranked players took it seriously...
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
It had a prize money of two millions for the winner at some point, more than any slam. That enough should he incentive to take it seriously, I know Becker skipped it once stating that he didn’t want to support such travesty, for which he was mocked by Muster calling him a fake Robin Hood.
Really Bums? People like Edberg, Becker, Sampras, Chang, Lendl, Stich, Agassi?
It was stopped after the 90's because the ITF season end finals (Grand Slam Cup) and the ATP season end finals were combined together.
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Drob
Hall of Fame
Plus his two Paris were Super Tournaments, his 1996 Stuttgart was effectively = the YEC, and those Stockholm pretty close. Those tourneys were really something in the early 90s.
I end up underrating Becker perhaps, irrespective I tout his Indoor prowess. I ranked him 9th for fast-and-super-fast indoor court. But he should probably be a littler higher. One reason I don't have him as high as Lendl is that Boris' three YEC were on 4-1 records - he never went undefeated. But this goes for Sampras as well, and perhaps I have Petros a little bit high (knee-jerk thinking?) - he also never achieved an undefeated YEC, despite winning five of them.
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Drob
Hall of Fame
You mentioned champs. And losing finalists included Sampras, Agassi, Rafter, Ivanisevic and Stich
Racquet_smash
Semi-Pro
Sampras. Serve is the most important aspect of indoors and Pete is the only one here with a nearly GOAT serve.
Sampras got 2 Grand Slam Cups as well.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Amen.
I agree it is very close. Lendl's 9 straight Masters finals isn't talked about enough as well.
I was responding to the user who said "Grand Slam Cup was for bums, that crap counts for nothing," . If the event was for Bums - are these participants that I listed Bums? I don't think so.
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Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
If it was as good as you people mention, ATP would find a way to extend it regardless of the merging...
Hitman
Bionic Poster
You're a Federer fan and you don't even know that YEC 03 level doesn't count in this debate? YEC 03 and 04 took place on outdoor HC in Houston, not indoor courts.
Federer has only won 4 YEC indoors. Djokovic won 7 YEC indoors.
So what is that then? 10 Basel and 4 YEC = 14 titles, Djokovic with 7 Paris and 7 YEC = 14 titles. Federer has Madrid 06, Paris 11, but Djokovic also has Basel 09 where he beat Federer in the final in his own backyard.
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Yes out of all the players that exclusively played within the open era, Lendl clearly had the best body of work in unsanctioned invitational events, many of which were under a roof. On a general note, his 'official' title count of 94 feels incredibly understated - I counted exactly 30 additional titles that he won, during which he came through either 4 or 5 matches along the way. And therefore as a result his official indoor title count of 42 is also understated.
I personally also count the following 17 additional indoor title wins by Lendl.
Antwerp x 5 (1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1989)
Challenge of Champions x 3 (1982, 1985, 1988)
Toronto Indoor x 2 (1982, 1984)
Milan x 1 (1981)
Melbourne x 1 (1982)
Stuttgart Indoor x 1 (1989)
Chicago x 1 (1989)
Hong Kong x 3 (1990, 1991, 1992)
The ECC in Antwerp was billed as the biggest indoor event in tennis for a period during the 80s, with huge attendances and crucially greater prize money on offer to winners and finalists compared to at any major, the Masters or the WCT Finals. After Lendl won the ECC for the 3rd time in 4 years in 1985, he walked away with the biggest monetary value prize in tennis history at the time, and was understandably delighted about it. Clearly with so much money on offer at those invitational events (the tennis authorities were worried about that and wanted players to play more within the system in the 90s post ATP-standardisation), players took them every bit as seriously as 'sanctioned' grand prix events.
From Mac's perspective he won Antwerp (1983, 1986 and 1988) and the Challenge of Champions (1981, 1985 and 1987) 3 times apiece. Also his 1984 AKAI Gold Challenge title in Sydney, with him winning 4 best of 5 set matches against Vilas (6-2 2-6 6-3 4-6 6-3), Wilander (6-1 6-2 6-2), Lendl (7-5 6-2 6-1) and Vilas again (6-3 6-3 6-3) in consecutive days, was hugely impressive.
Lendl won the Suntory Cup in Tokyo, which again had huge prize money on offer, twice, beating Mac in the 1984 and 1985 finals. Mac never won that event, also losing in back to back finals against Connors in 1980 and 1981, and in the semi-finals in 1982 and 1983 (against Borg). However despite the huge money and strength of those fields, I'm more hesitant to count title wins only requiring 2 match wins (a semi-final and final) along the way.
Mac drubbed Lendl in back to back Masters finals in 1983 and 1984, while Lendl drubbed Mac in the 1982 final (after drubbing Connors in their SF) and also Becker in the 1986 (both of whom were in excellent form and full of confidence going into those matches). As I've said ad-naseum, his entire 1986 Masters title run, only even facing a break point in the 2nd set of his opening RR match against Gómez, before proceeding to swat aside the other 4 members of the top 5 in consecutive matches, without conceding more than 4 games per set or facing a single break point across any of those 9 sets, was superhuman stuff.
It's close between them, but all an all I'd say that Mac's indoor Davis Cup activity is a decisive tiebreaker in his favour, with his 16-1 record in live singles rubbers on indoor carpet / hard, compared to Lendl's 5-1 record (i.e. ignoring team outcomes and just focusing on their individual singles matches). Admittedly from Lendl's shortened Davis Cup career, most of the ties that he played in (home and away) were on clay.
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Becker ended up winning it in 1996, so he didn’t continue in that thought…
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
but he is the right answer
Drob
Hall of Fame
Well put.
And your synopsis is helpful/informative. Thanks.
I listed those EEC and Challenge if Champions that i found had verry strong draws along w the prize money. So i did not list all the independent indoor titles. i never counted Suntory, despite its astro purse because it was a 4-man. EEC was four rounds usually, sometimes 5. Challenge of Champions was 5 marches in RR/SF/F - i think that is right, but you know better. I also gound a couple of Mich Lites, one "Brooklyn Masters" and one Chicago to meet my standard for a BIG tourney - one approximating or > an M 1000.
Regarding pure pre open era. In the 1920s, Borotra stood out as indoor player, he came from the Basque game of pelota and with his risky volley game, liked fast courts and circumstances. Here he even could beat his nemesis Tilden. Cochet beat him at the World Covered Court in 1922. In the 1930s, i would pick Vines, who with his big serve was better than Perry indoors, while i would give prime Perry the edge on grass. Tilden and Budge were üretty close. Since the 1930s indoor tennis was virtually the pro game, while the amateurs with their endless summer played very seldom indoors. So the pro cjamps had always a big advanatage against newcomers at the begin of pro careers. Kramer excelled indoors, after he lost his first big pro indoor match against Riggs at MSG in the famous blizzard match. Gonzalez with his bid serve had probanly the best indoor record of all pro champs pre open era, with his 8 Cleveland and 4 Wembley wins and numerous other important indoor wins. Indoors he was still a factor at the begin of open era. Rosewall is indeed underretd indoors, After a rough start in 1957, he improved his volley game and built on a fine indoor record. In the early open era, alongside Laver and Rosewall, Nastase (4 Masters, Wembley and US indoors wins) and Ashe were fine indoor players. Besides: Not all indoor courts were ultra fast, i think, the Dallas WCT court was pretty slow, and gave baseliners like Rosewall, Borg and Vilas good chances.
Tennfan123
Legend
Becker
One should look more into the early open era record of Nastase. He was extremely fast and had a fine, underrated serve and great reflexes, and indoors was probably his best surface, and by my count he won 30 indoor titles, and many big titles too, inclkuding 4 Masters, 2 Salisbury US Indoors, and Wembley resp. Dewar Cup. And surprisingly for a guy with often cited bad nerves, he won an open era reocrd of 42 five set matches.
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Drob
Hall of Fame
i remember he won an astro prize-money event in later part of 1970s that i considered a BIG. WCT Challenge Cup i think it was called. Around 1977-78. Strong field. Best Connors in final
Big 5-set win over Laver at Wembley - 1970 i think.
Good addition. Nastase played WTF five times in five straight years, from 1971-1975. He won each of the 4 years it was held indoors (losing the 1974 final when it was held outdoors in Australia on grass).
So, Nastase was 4/4 in winning WTF when it was indoors.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Yes. But in ATP matches indoors, all at M 1000 level or ATP Finals they are 7-7, and if throw out 1997, when Becker was no longer a contender, it is 7-6 Boris. Pete was clearly better overall but Indoor they were equals.
I think they would both agree about being basically equal indoors. Beckers peak level indoors I (and Becker himself) agree, was 1996. Pete was near his peak in 1996. Becker led the h2h indoors that year.
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Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
i think that indoors mitigated most of the negative aspects of the matchup for Becker:
but he was still at an age disadvantage. so i would even suggest that the h2h points in Becker's favor prime to prime, even with this note below:
and instead of the h2h, i would say to think about Davis Cup records if you want to compare indoors clutchness or something related
Age difference was 3.75 years. Becker was still in his 20s playing Sampras whilst still playing full time. So I don’t think it was significant
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
Becker measurably and visually dropped off after '91 in basically every way - slam performance, super 9 performance, finals and titles rate, match win rate, ranking - but it's not significant that 10/13 of Becker and Sampras' indoors matches happened within that context?
You have a point about rate of wins dropping off. In 1991 he was 23 so i don’t think it could be age. However he was still winning important indoor titles. He also said in 1996 that that year was his peak level. Having a look at his indoor matches that year shows an extremely high level
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Age is also a detriment for someone like Boris Becker. He got burnt out mentally when he became number 1 in 1991.
He has specifically mentioned how if he won the Wimbledon 92, he was afraid he would retire. That would be at age 24 and half (similar to his idol Bjorn).
He might have been very good in patches afterwards but injuries do catch up and motivation can fail. That's what happened to Boris as per his own words.
It was motivation, yes. Not age. He got re-motivated in the mid 1990s which culminated in his great form in 1996.(won Australian open, grand slam cup, very close to winning wtf, 2-1 against Sampras indoor. Unlucky to injure his wrist at Wimbledon )
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Yes agreed. He doesn't come off like a player from sampras generation. Because by the time his motivation dropped it was still edberg on top and Pete had just been known like a guy with big serve who won usopen
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
sure we can say motivation. the issue doesn't have to be initially or wholly age in itself, merely that Becker's best years were behind him while Sampras was in his best years and that dynamic inherently favors the younger player, who moving forward will tend to retain the relative advantage
Was his best years behind him in 1996 especially indoor - with a superior H2H in those conditions to Sampras that year? (and the only loss was in 6-4 in the 5th in the WTF final after beating Samprase in the round robin).
Drob
Hall of Fame
Of course i must agree. And you mention his decline to underscore his ongoing dominance Indoors. But Becker is too intriguing and too dynamic that i had to look again at those years. They were inconsistent. But between 1992-96 he won 6 BIG indoors titles out of 13 total indoors titles and not a 250 or close among them - all good tourneys. Among the 6 BIGs, 2 YEC in four finals.
He reached a Wimbledon F and two SF in those five years, a USO SF and won the AO. He continued to try on clay, w finals at Italian Open, MC and Gstaad.
'92 was rather remarkable w Indoor championships at Rotterdam, Basel, Brussels, Paris and YEC.
If you can believe Wiki, he scored 40 top 10 wins during these five years.
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Drob
Hall of Fame
I have Becker for as many as 16 BIG Indoors titles - M 1000 approximates.
Becker is all-time top 10 Indoors
He is top 10 grass - maybe just barely.
He is better than we think on outdoor hard - approx. 12 titles, incl USO, 2 AO, 2 IW, 2 Cincy, a Rogers Cup. Understanding outdoor hard was not a prominent surface for highest-level competition until 1970s (PSW, PCC, Pro Masters among few exceptions) and not leading surface until this century, and that his Cincy and Rogers weren't so great, still he is probably 20-30 top outdoor hard.
And Clay, i submit he deserves some credit.
3 SF at RG, 3 MC F, Rome F, Hamburg F; four-time SF at clay M 1000s;
and the "Champ" of '89 Nations Cup on 4-0 singles and deciding doubles victory;
AND, 8-1 singles on clay at Davis Cup.
Becker is all-time top 10 Indoors
He is top 10 grass - maybe just barely.
He is better than we think on outdoor hard - approx. 12 titles, incl USO, 2 AO, 2 IW, 2 Cincy, a Rogers Cup. Understanding outdoor hard was not a prominent surface for highest-level competition until 1970s (PSW, PCC, Pro Masters among few exceptions) and not leading surface until this century, and that his Cincy and Rogers weren't so great, still he is probably 20-30 top outdoor hard.
And Clay, i submit he deserves some credit.
3 SF at RG, 3 MC F, Rome F, Hamburg F; four-time SF at clay M 1000s;
and the "Champ" of '89 Nations Cup on 4-0 singles and deciding doubles victory;
AND, 8-1 singles on clay at Davis Cup.
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Interesting discussion on Becker. I think, he was at his peak in 1986 and 1989, when he was pysically fit, fresh and eager, strong and mighty under the coaching of Bosch and Brett. He had a slump in the early 1990s, changed coaches pretty often, forgot to train properly and came back in the mid 1990s, when he trained more and better with the help pf Pilic (and Bollettieri). He primed in the indoor season, although he had lost a step, finding the no wind, no sun circumstances usefull for his serve and return game. He had a better backhand than Sampras. And he had the advantage, that he often played home matches in Germany, where he was pushed by the crowd. And the German organizers made the courts fast to support his game. I remember a Ivanisevic match of ca. 1991 at Frankfurt, when it was only serve against serve. In my personal opinion, maybe the best indoor performance of the 1990s, was maybe the win of Michael Stich over a well playing Sampras at Frankfurt in 1993 (i saw old Lew Hoad lauding this particular match).
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Grafil Injection
Hall of Fame
Navratilova - 88 titles in 21 years, at 87% match win rate.
Grafil Injection
Hall of Fame
Nope. Navratilova had 88 singles carpet tournament wins! Out of her 167 total singles wins! Almost the same as Rafa's total tournament wins! If you included doubles, she would probably have over 150 indoor wins, out of her total 354 tournament wins!!!
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