Who was the tougher match up for Djokovic on grass between Federer and Nadal?

Thoughts?

  • Total voters
    81
technically, peak rafa might have a fight with fed but for consistent performance on grass, fed should be ahead
 
Hitman said:
Legendary battles that will echo through the annals of time but which of the two was the tougher challenge for Djokovic to overcome on grass.

On clay it was Nadal, on hard it was Federer. Of the two who is it on grass?



IMO it is Federer, no question.
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Yes. This is not a real question.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
@roysid you think Federer was easier on grass for Djokovic than Nadal?

Federer beat world number 1 Djokovic in 2012.
1 pt away in 2019.
Fifth set in 2014.
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I am stating based on gameplay more than results.
Djokovic exploited Feds bh brutally in their matches at W. His ROS was also effective to neutralise Rogers serve.

With Nadal he didnt have an obvious weakness to exploit. He used to handle Nadals fh barrage and then outlast him.

Result wise its 3-1 vs Fed and 2-1 vs Nadal with both their last matches could have gone either way
 
TheGoldenEra1990’s said:
djoker was awesome in 2023 but wasn’t even half his level if you compare it to his 2011 and 2015 form. 2011 Djoker doesn’t lose a match all year in 2023
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To be fair just because a player isn't at his peak doesn't mean the opponent shouldn't be given credit for their wins. Alcaraz absolutely deserves credit for his wins over Djokovic for his two Wimbledon victories just as Djokovic deserves credit for his over Federer.
 
I object to even players not being at their peak. Some weirdo on ttw doesn't decide who is in peak when.


Djokovic said his 2023 self stands good chance vs 2015 and I agree.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Djokovic said his 2023 self stands good chance vs 2015 and I agree.
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In a close match perhaps, because 2023 Djokovic is even more experienced. But it wouldn't be close. Like Connors said once, that having experience is great, but once you get it, you are usually too old to really make it count.

Federer said something similar around 2015 about his 2005-2006 self, to what Djokovic said. I was thinking "more experience and being wiser does not mean better. Youth has its own big advantages".
 
Mustard said:
In a close match perhaps, because 2023 Djokovic is even more experienced. But it wouldn't be close. Like Connors said once, that having experience is great, but once you get it, you are usually too old to really make it count.

Federer said something similar around 2015 about his 2005-2006 self, to what Djokovic said.
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I don't know what Connors said. I can agree with you that in close match yes. And object to your analysis that it won't be close.

What I see is 2015 Djokovic getting pretty tough fight on his hand with 2023 Djokovic. Can't be dishonest sorry.
 
Nadal fans think peak Nadal is unbeatable player on clay grass hc . Thankfully even they don't think the indoors is his arena. But a lot of delusion .
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Federer, definitely. In a prime vs prime Djokovic beat Nadal quite comfortably in 2011 and he definitely wouldn't do so against Federer.

However, Djokovic being painfully underrated on grass as usual. In 2012 they were 1-1 4-4 and then Djokovic had a few crap games at the end of the 3rd and beginning of the 4th that cost him the match. But outside that spell he went toe to toe with a very well-playing Federer. And that was before he properly mastered movement on the surface and his serve became a bigger weapon. And in 2015 although it wasn't peak Federer, everyone was calling his performance vs Murray one of his best ever in the SF and then in the final he had to sweat blood and tears to take one seat in a tie break saving multiple set points. Very few would have beaten Federer the way Djokovic did in 2015. And in 2014, it would have been another 4-setter with the only set lost in a tie-break if he hadn't choked the 4th.

Yes, this wasn't peak Federer and it speaks badly about Djokovic that it cost him so much in 2019 when Federer was 38ish, but the other performances were great.

In 2005 which was the peakeist of peaks Federer Kiefer served to take him to 5, so the idea that Federer would routine 2015 Djokovic is not solidly backed.





Same as this. I don't think 2014 Federer "shreds" 2019 Djokovic. The way Federer beat Berettini, Nadal and Nishikori and pushed Djokovic to the limit in 2019, I don't think 2014 Federer would have done so much better. There wasn't that much of a difference between 2014 and 2019 Federer. There was a bigger difference between peak Federer in the mid-2000s to 2014 than from 2014 to 2019. The thing is people obsess over age and see that 5 years went by, so he must have been terribly worse.

Federer is a better grasscourter than Djokovic, yes, but 2009 Federer vs 2015 Djokovic the latter more than holds his own ground, and they were the same age and both in their prime.
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I don’t think anyone is suggesting Fed would routine Djokovic on grass
 
roysid said:
I am stating based on gameplay more than results.
Djokovic exploited Feds bh brutally in their matches at W. His ROS was also effective to neutralise Rogers serve.

With Nadal he didnt have an obvious weakness to exploit. He used to handle Nadals fh barrage and then outlast him.

Result wise its 3-1 vs Fed and 2-1 vs Nadal with both their last matches could have gone either way
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Djokovic exploited Fed’s age, not his BH.
 
mike danny said:
Fed hadn’t reached a slam final in 2 years
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True, but it was grass and Wimbledon, with Federer winning 2014 Halle and only dropping 1 set on his way to the 2014 Wimbledon final.

Did you really think that Federer's poor 2013 mattered anymore by 2014?
 
Mustard said:
True, but it was grass and Wimbledon, with Federer winning 2014 Halle and only dropping 1 set on his way to the 2014 Wimbledon final.

Did you really think that Federer's poor 2013 mattered anymore by 2014?
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Yeah?

Fed had to revamp his game and wasn’t the same anymore coupled with natural physical decline
 
Djokovic and Nadal met four times on grass. Nadal won the first two meetings. Their first match on grass was in the 2007 Wimbledon semis, Djokovich won the first set but retired in the third set down 4-1. Their second meeting was at 2008 Queen’s Club final, two straight sets for Nadal. Djokovic won the latter two matches: in four sets in the 2011 Wimbledon final, and five sets in the 2018 Wimbledon semis. So, against Nadal on grass Djokovic won seven sets in four matches.

Djokovic and Federer met four times on grass, also. Fed won their first match in the 2012 Wimbledon semis in four sets. Djoker won the last three meetings. All three of these were Wimbledon finals: two were five setters, one was a four setter. So, against Federer on grass Djokovic won ten sets in four matches.
 
hoodjem said:
Djokovic and Nadal met four times on grass. Nadal won the first two meetings. Their first match on grass was in the 2007 Wimbledon semis, Djokovich won the first set but retired in the third set down 4-1. Their second meeting was at 2008 Queen’s Club final, two straight sets for Nadal. Djokovic won the latter two matches: in four sets in the 2011 Wimbledon final, and five sets in the 2018 Wimbledon semis. So, against Nadal on grass Djokovic won seven sets in four matches.

Djokovic and Federer met four times on grass, also. Fed won their first match in the 2012 Wimbledon semis in four sets. Djoker won the last three meetings. All three of these were Wimbledon finals: two were five setters, one was a four setter. So, against Federer on grass Djokovic won ten sets in four matches.
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Ok entire ttw community is idiot only your side is correct.

Including but not limited to , one of the matches is bo3.
One of the match was ended abruptly due to retirement.

7 sets in four matches.
10 sets in four matches which were exactly similar. No difference.
 
How easily can this type of argument will be blown up is.

Federer won 8 sets in 4 matches vs Djokovic
Nadal won 7 sets in 4 matches vs Djokovic.

8 > 7.

So simple.

Fact is Federer lost 5 sets only in tiebreaks while winning 2 tiebreaks of his own. Razor thin margins.
 
Federer scoreline

6-3 3-6 6-4 6-3 7-6 4-6 6-7 7-5 6-4 6-7 7-6 4-6 3-6 6-7 6-1 6-7 4-6 12-13

Federer winning 51% of games


Nadal scoreline doesn't even matter as one of them is a match completely gone out with retirement.
 
Hitman said:
Legendary battles that will echo through the annals of time but which of the two was the tougher challenge for Djokovic to overcome on grass.

On clay it was Nadal, on hard it was Federer. Of the two who is it on grass?

IMO it is Federer, no question.
Click to expand...

Yeah it's Federer, no question.

Let's not even take the 2007 SF into account here. Djokovic could barely walk after 1st set.
Queen's 2008 was a meaningless 250, nothing to see here.
Thus the H2H on grass between Djokodal is very misleading (2-2)
Even the still rusty/unstable version of Djokovic in 2018 won. Any other year between 2011 and 2024, Djokovic would've won against Nadal. The only reason there were so few matches in Wimbledon (and in AO, actually) is because Nadal was regularly losing early against mugs. Thus avoiding humiliations in the late stages against his 2 biggest rivals.
 
Lauren_Girl' said:
Yeah it's Federer, no question.

Let's not even take the 2007 SF into account here. Djokovic could barely walk after 1st set.
Queen's 2008 was a meaningless 250, nothing to see here.
Thus the H2H on grass between Djokodal is very misleading (2-2)
Even the still rusty/unstable version of Djokovic in 2018 won. Any other year between 2011 and 2024, Djokovic would've won against Nadal. The only reason there were so few matches in Wimbledon (and in AO, actually) is because Nadal was regularly losing early against mugs. Thus avoiding humiliations in the late stages against his 2 biggest rivals.
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Any year but not 2017. 2011 to 2024 for 13 years any time Rafa would have come , he would have gone home with a big L
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Ok this is where I call bs on it.

Djokovic was 1 set away from cygs. You fedal fans can cry about it as much as you want.
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One set away? How have you come up with that? The CYGS was never even a prospect in 2023. it was in 2021 and Djokovic bottled it. I often wonder if 2021 is still haunting him tbh given how miserable he always seems nowadays. i did say at the time 2021 maybe to him what 1984 was to McEnroe. McEnroe cannot even talk about 1984, he hated that year.
 
Pretty much every GOAT in every sport dominated into their 30s: Jordan (or Lebron if you think it's him), Ali, Gretsky, Messi, Brady, etc. were all dominant into their mid 30s We all know who the tennis GOAT is so no need to name him. :p Even in short prime sports like track and swimming, Bolt and Phelps dominated until 30/31. Tennis is the only sport I follow where a fanbase thinks their guy is the GOAT but think 32-34 was too ancient to compete with a 6 year younger ATG. So then he would be the only GOAT among this list who was too old by the age of 29?
 
NoleFam said:
Pretty much every GOAT in every sport dominated into their 30s: Jordan (or Lebron if you think it's him), Ali, Gretsky, Messi, Brady, etc. were all dominant into their mid 30s We all know who the tennis GOAT is so no need to name him. :p Even in short prime sports like track and swimming, Bolt and Phelps dominated until 30/31. Tennis is the only sport I follow where a fanbase thinks their guy is the GOAT but think 32-34 was too ancient to compete with a 6 year younger ATG. So then he would be the only GOAT among this list who was too old by the age of 29?
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You are very right.

On top of that djokovic also dominated his 20s. Winning 12 slams , 21 finals and 30 masters with 4 atp finals.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
You are very right.

On top of that djokovic also dominated his 20s. Winning 12 slams , 21 finals and 30 masters with 4 atp finals.
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2011-2016 - 6 year period where he won 11 Slams
2018-2023 - 6 year period where he won 12 Slams

A 2 year break in his dominance but it continued for a long time. Djokovic, like Jordan, peaked in his mid to late 20s but won just as much in his 30s. Both ran up the stats in their 30s.
 
NoleFam said:
2011-2016 - 6 year period where he won 11 Slams
2018-2023 - 6 year period where he won 12 Slams

A 2 year break in his dominance but it continued for a long time. Djokovic, like Jordan, peaked in his mid to late 20s but won just as much in his 30s. Both ran up the stats in their 30s.
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All we know is that someone will need to be super dominant in their 20s and 30s to overtake Djokovic as the king of the mountain.

The target is 25 slams, which no able bodied player, man or woman has ever achieved up to this point. And that is if Djokovic doesn't pull out another slam before he retires.
 
Antonio Puente said:
Well, if there's a clay slam final, Nadal is most likely in it while Djoker, the hard court GOAT, loses to Istomin and Chung on his home court, and a whole cast of characters at the USO.

Post 2013, Nadal made 5 hard court slam finals where Djoker was nowhere to be found. Djoker was free to show up and even the slam H2H.
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Djoker would have been smashed in AO17 and USO19
 
Nappa said:
Djoker would have been smashed in AO17 and USO19
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#InAnEpicKit :alien:

b7de66cd79342331abb45953c98fab21.gif

giphy.gif
 
zagor said:
Nadal is better at FO than Fed at Wimbledon but being basically the same age helps man.

If Novak was 6 years younger than Nadal he'd have a much better shot at beating him at FO past a certain point.
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Yeah I wouldn't expect 2019+ Nadal to beat peak Novak at the FO, think the gap in physicality over BO5 would be too much. Which is basically the equivalent of 2014+ Federer losing to Djokovic at Wimbledon.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Federer, definitely. In a prime vs prime Djokovic beat Nadal quite comfortably in 2011 and he definitely wouldn't do so against Federer.

However, Djokovic being painfully underrated on grass as usual. In 2012 they were 1-1 4-4 and then Djokovic had a few crap games at the end of the 3rd and beginning of the 4th that cost him the match. But outside that spell he went toe to toe with a very well-playing Federer. And that was before he properly mastered movement on the surface and his serve became a bigger weapon. And in 2015 although it wasn't peak Federer, everyone was calling his performance vs Murray one of his best ever in the SF and then in the final he had to sweat blood and tears to take one seat in a tie break saving multiple set points. Very few would have beaten Federer the way Djokovic did in 2015. And in 2014, it would have been another 4-setter with the only set lost in a tie-break if he hadn't choked the 4th.

Yes, this wasn't peak Federer and it speaks badly about Djokovic that it cost him so much in 2019 when Federer was 38ish, but the other performances were great.

In 2005 which was the peakeist of peaks Federer Kiefer served to take him to 5, so the idea that Federer would routine 2015 Djokovic is not solidly backed.





Same as this. I don't think 2014 Federer "shreds" 2019 Djokovic. The way Federer beat Berettini, Nadal and Nishikori and pushed Djokovic to the limit in 2019, I don't think 2014 Federer would have done so much better. There wasn't that much of a difference between 2014 and 2019 Federer. There was a bigger difference between peak Federer in the mid-2000s to 2014 than from 2014 to 2019. The thing is people obsess over age and see that 5 years went by, so he must have been terribly worse.

Federer is a better grasscourter than Djokovic, yes, but 2009 Federer vs 2015 Djokovic the latter more than holds his own ground, and they were the same age and both in their prime.
Click to expand...

This is a good, balanced take.
 
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