Who would you consider a pro tennis player?

socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
What is your definition of a male pro player? Would it be someone who is ranked above a certain ranking in the ATP? Would it be someone who has earned at least 1 ATP point? Would it be anyone who plays in ITF Futures tournaments including qualifying rounds even if they haven’t earned a single ATP point? Would it need to be someone who actually made a living playing pro tennis by having positive income greater than their expenses which would probably require a top 200 ranking?

I posted it in this section because the division between rec players and pro players seems somewhat nebulous when we have discussions like ‘Can a rec player win one point against a pro? Can a rec player win a game against a pro? What should a pro player self-rate at if they played USTA tennis?’ Also many coaches claim to be ex-pro players, but there is usually no online record of them ever earning an ATP point. At what point can someone claim they are an ex-pro on their coaching resume?
 
MaxTennis said:
I actually like Roddick's definition of a pro tennis player. He said it was someone who makes their primary income off playing tennis.
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I think it is too stringent because barely anyone above a ranking of 150 on the ATP Tour makes enough money from tennis where they can make a living and don’t need sponsors or other income streams. I tend towards giving the label to someone who has been ranked in the top 1000 which typically means earning about 18 to 20 ATP points at that time. I can see how some others might want to cut it off at lower rankings like 300 or 500. Players with 1 ATP point currently are ranked about 1800 up to 2300 and that may be too loose a definition.
 
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yea crack the top 1000 and you are playing tournaments consistently throughout your year. roddick lol, sometimes hes a little removed from reality. like someone said u need to be top 150 to really make a true living. but if ur a grinder and you are playing to make it then ur a pro. guys barely make a living in low level other sports, but they are still pro’s.
 
If you've accepted money for winning matches, you're a "pro" otherwise you're an amateur. There's Club Pro which is a teacher who possibly wins some cash playing open tournaments.
Then, there's a Tour Pro which is another level.
 
A pro player is very different from a teaching pro. I know guys who work full time at a tennis center and teach beginner kids lessons, but they are only around 4.0 level if they compete themselves. They probably wouldn't call themselve a "tennis pro" but technically they are - tennis is currently their profession, i.e their job.
 
TennisOTM said:
A pro player is very different from a teaching pro. I know guys who work full time at a tennis center and teach beginner kids lessons, but they are only around 4.0 level if they compete themselves. They probably wouldn't call themselve a "tennis pro" but technically they are - tennis is currently their profession, i.e their job.
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I am talking about the definition for players who are pros rather than coaches.
 
For me, a pro player is one whose career is tennis - i.e. makes a living from playing tennis, or at least is making a serious go at it with some reasonable chance of success.

Someone who played a few futures but never committed to tennis as a career does not count in my book. Not to say that such a player isn't incredibly good, but not a "professional player" in my view.

A guy I know is an example. He was a good junior and after high school decided to try playing pro tennis. He played a bunch of futures at age 19-20 and did manage to get a couple ATP points. Mostly by entering many obscure tournaments and getting lucky a few times. But he never cracked the top 1,000 and never had a remotely realistic chance of making any money. And he knew it. But he had rich parents who were prepared to support and indulge him. He sometimes calls himself an "ex-pro" and this makes me laugh.
 
socallefty said:
What is your definition of a male pro player? Would it be someone who is ranked above a certain ranking in the ATP? Would it be someone who has earned at least 1 ATP point? Would it be anyone who plays in ITF Futures tournaments including qualifying rounds even if they haven’t earned a single ATP point? Would it need to be someone who actually made a living playing pro tennis by having positive income greater than their expenses which would probably require a top 200 ranking?

I posted it in this section because the division between rec players and pro players seems somewhat nebulous when we have discussions like ‘Can a rec player win one point against a pro? Can a rec player win a game against a pro? What should a pro player self-rate at if they played USTA tennis?’ Also many coaches claim to be ex-pro players, but there is usually no online record of them ever earning an ATP point. At what point can someone claim they are an ex-pro on their coaching resume?
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I'ld say you could define it in two ways.
One is someone who earns his living by playing competitive tennis at any level.
Another is anyone who has ATP points, regardless of where primary income comes from.

Strictly speaking, I guess "professional" means that that is what you do for a living; how you earn your money.

Under that definition, some random amateur who builds a popular and lucrative youtube channel with video's of him playing and analyzing his low-level tennis matches in local tournaments, could be considered a "professional" also. :)

You could say that that person isn't a professional tennis player, because the bulk of the income comes from being on social media and not from prize money.
But in that sense, Roger Federer wouldn't qualify as a professional tennis player either, since the bulk of his money comes from sponsorship deals with wilson and what-not. So Roger isn't a professional tennis player then, but rather a professional marketeer. :-)


You could then argue that those sponsorship deals only exist because of him playing tennis and you'ld be right. But then again you could say the same about that youtube channel.
But I think we would all agree that calling that amateur youtuber a "professional tennis player", would be stretching it.

So to conclude, it might be best to say that a "pro tennis player" is a tennis player who plays competitively in the "pro" circuits - regardless of income. And then the "pro" qualification becomes about level of play instead of earnings. And I think that makes a lot more sense.
 
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To me the definition of professional is that its your profession, normally your profession makes you a living but since its not always the case at tennis, i would say youre a professional if your main activity is competing at price money tennis tournaments, now, you must be well off to be able to compete and not make enough money to live, but that doesnt take away that your main activity is competing, i could spend all day selling mugs on the street and not make a cent, but i guess i would be a professional mug seller
 
ProStaffFanatic said:
And then the "pro" qualification becomes about level of play instead of earnings.
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This thread is about debating what level of play qualifies someone as a pro. At some particular ATP ranking level? Or if someone gets a certain number of ATP points?

Right now there are 500 guys with 1 ATP point each that you can find on the ATP rankings list somewhere around 1800 to 2300 in the world. Are they high enough in level to be considered pros in the present, ex-pros in the future on their resume or should it be players ranked lower with more ATP points? The guys ranked around 1000 typically have 18-20 ATP points.
 
Anybody with a single ATP (or some relevant equivalent such as a frequent and successful PTT player are very good college player). These guys have put in 6000-8000 hours on court at least and have been working 10, 12, 15 years. I have a lot of respect for these people and am not going to gatekeep them from some credit.
 
socallefty said:
I think it is too stringent because barely anyone above a ranking of 150 on the ATP Tour makes enough money from tennis where they can make a living and don’t need sponsors or other income streams. I tend towards giving the label to someone who has been ranked in the top 1000 which typically means earning about 18 to 20 ATP points at that time. I can see how some others might want to cut it off at lower rankings like 300 or 500. Players with 1 ATP point currently are ranked about 1800 up to 2300 and that may be too loose a definition.
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I agree. Would Roddick's definition mean that Anna Kournakova was never a "pro tennis player" even though she was in the top 10 for multiple years because her modeling income always dwarfed her tennis prize money? That doesn't seem right.
 
After giving it some more thought, I propose the following test for pro-ness:

ATP points > (age - 10) * 10

If this is true for a player at any point on or after age 10, I'm prepared to acknowledge them as a legit pro player.
 
socallefty said:
This thread is about debating what level of play qualifies someone as a pro. At some particular ATP ranking level? Or if someone gets a certain number of ATP points?

Right now there are 500 guys with 1 ATP point each that you can find on the ATP rankings list somewhere around 1800 to 2300 in the world. Are they high enough in level to be considered pros in the present, ex-pros in the future on their resume or should it be players ranked lower with more ATP points? The guys ranked around 1000 typically have 18-20 ATP points.
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In that case, like I said, I'ld call anyone a pro when he/she competes on pro-circuits, regardless of rankings.

Not anyone qualifies for such tournaments, so the fact alone that you may enter these tournaments to begin with, is already a recognition of your level of tennis.
Competing on such implies a whole bunch of stuff concerning your level of play, your dedication, etc.

Even if you lose every match you play, then to me that just means that you find yourself on the bottom of the pro-players barrel. But you're still in the barrel.
 
TennisOTM said:
A pro player is very different from a teaching pro. I know guys who work full time at a tennis center and teach beginner kids lessons, but they are only around 4.0 level if they compete themselves. They probably wouldn't call themselve a "tennis pro" but technically they are - tennis is currently their profession, i.e their job.
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I've been a tennis instructor/coach for the past 30 or so years, and have always avoided being referred to as a "pro", which I believe should refer to a player who travels and makes a living playing professional tournaments.
 
MaxTennis said:
I actually like Roddick's definition of a pro tennis player. He said it was someone who makes their primary income off playing tennis.
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That would not apply to billionaire daughters like Pegula or Navarro whose primary income may be their investments.

Professional players are those who play in paying tournaments approved by governing bodies.

A sanctioned tournament like a USTA Adult Open awarding a trophy would not be regarded as a paying tournament. Even if it handed out some money, it would still not be approved as a professional tournament by a governing body.

A private tournament which pays money to attract good players would not be approved as a professional tournament by a governing body.

An amateur playing for free (through a lottery) in a Pro-Am at the US Open would not be considered a professional even though the event maybe organized by the USTA.

Interestingly, before the Open Era in 1969, players like Laver who played private tournaments for money were considered professionals and not allowed to play Slams which were for "amateurs." But Wimbledon did pay out money - something like 10 pounds.
 
sovertennis said:
I've been a tennis instructor/coach for the past 30 or so years, and have always avoided being referred to as a "pro", which I believe should refer to a player who travels and makes a living playing professional tournaments.
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Yeah it's maybe getting to be an outdated term - the instructors were always called "pros" when I was a kid many years ago, but it seems more rare now.
 
sovertennis said:
I've been a tennis instructor/coach for the past 30 or so years, and have always avoided being referred to as a "pro", which I believe should refer to a player who travels and makes a living playing professional tournaments.
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Travel is not a necessary condition. It just happens that it is inevitable.
 
Jono123 said:
Someone whose source of income is solely competing in tennis.
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Nadal before retirement was making money through his academy. Djokovic is making money through his restaurants.

Nadal was making money modeling Hilfiger undies as a player. Undies have nothing special to do with tennis.

Federer was making money peddling pastas.
 
Roforot said:
When you pay to play, you’re an amateur or rec player. Pros earn money from playing, teaching, or endorsing. Even if you win $200 from an open tournament, Id call you a pro (assuming the entry fee is less)
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That is a good point. I raised that in my previous post. A USTA-sanctioned Open probably is not considered a professional tournament as it is not sanctioned as such by a governing body.

Now in the US, NCAA college athletes can make money off their NIL (name, image, likeness). But they would not be considered professionals.
 
sovertennis said:
I've been a tennis instructor/coach for the past 30 or so years, and have always avoided being referred to as a "pro", which I believe should refer to a player who travels and makes a living playing professional tournaments.
Click to expand...

The best term is teaching pro. The usual term "coach" is respectful but to me it seems like a joke when applied to a teaching pro providing lessons to a beginner or conducting adult clinics. Coach suits those teaching pros who are teaching advanced players.
 
TheSlicer said:
To me the definition of professional is that its your profession, normally your profession makes you a living but since its not always the case at tennis, i would say youre a professional if your main activity is competing at price money tennis tournaments, now, you must be well off to be able to compete and not make enough money to live, but that doesnt take away that your main activity is competing, i could spend all day selling mugs on the street and not make a cent, but i guess i would be a professional mug seller
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Interesting. In Pickleball, there are now prize money tournaments which are not professional tournaments but are great money-makers for exiting tennis college players. These players are making money playing Pickleball but the events may not be sanctioned as professional, so they are not professional players.
 
sureshs said:
Interesting. In Pickleball, there are now prize money tournaments which are not professional tournaments but are great money-makers for exiting tennis college players. These players are making money playing Pickleball but the events may not be sanctioned as professional, so they are not professional players.
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Well, if you spend your day playing pickleball and earning money from its hard not to say youre a professional player, just because the tournaments you enter are not cathegorized as professional
 
TheSlicer said:
Well, if you spend your day playing pickleball and earning money from its hard not to say youre a professional player, just because the tournaments you enter are not cathegorized as professional
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A professional needs to be compared to other professionals. That is possible only if the tournaments are sanctioned and award ranking points.
 
sureshs said:
A professional needs to be compared to other professionals. That is possible only if the tournaments are sanctioned and award ranking points.
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Why he needs to be compared to others? Im starting from the view that a professional means its your profession, your main activity, just because in tennis it seems to be unclear at what point you become a professional, we can talk about points, money, but those are just interpretations, if we go to the definition of professional it means that its your profession, one you take money from, so to me (as this whole take we are making its just each other opinions) a professional tennis player would be somebody that spends his days trainning and competing and trying to get momey from it, since its his main activity. Now, you can be a bad professional, but to me thats what it means, a point here and a point there means your better or worse professional, thats my interpretation.
 
TheSlicer said:
Why he needs to be compared to others? Im starting from the view that a professional means its your profession, your main activity, just because in tennis it seems to be unclear at what point you become a professional, we can talk about points, money, but those are just interpretations, if we go to the definition of professional it means that its your profession, one you take money from, so to me (as this whole take we are making its just each other opinions) a professional tennis player would be somebody that spends his days trainning and competing and trying to get momey from it, since its his main activity. Now, you can be a bad professional, but to me thats what it means, a point here and a point there means your better or worse professional, thats my interpretation.
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In plain English, a professional engineer is one who does engineering to make money. But when the term is used, it refers to a PE whose has passed an exam and gotten certified.

It is like that.

Usage varies with context.
 
sureshs said:
In plain English, a professional engineer is one who does engineering to make money. But when the term is used, it refers to a PE whose has passed an exam and gotten certified.

It is like that.

Usage varies with context.
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Well english is not my first language, so i guess i just know plain english, so the thread was asking what is to me a professional tennis player, and to me you dont need to have an atp point if you spend your day training and competing in futures qualis or lower tournaments for example, because its your profession as you spend your day trying to make money off of it, you might be a shi tty professional, but thats not muy point, i understand what youre saying though, but since the term is not clear or has a definitive anwser when it comes to tennis, i guess we have to go back to the root of the meaning to find one
 
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TheSlicer said:
the thread was asking what is to me a professional tennis player,
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You are right. I started the thread just to get a range of opinions on how people would define a professional tennis player. It was not meant to impose one definition to change the opinion of others. It is a loosely defined term and different people will obviously interpret it differently.
 
AI says:

A professional tennis player is someone who competes in tennis tournaments at the highest level, often organized by associations like the ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals) for men or the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) for women.
 
TheSlicer said:
Well, if you spend your day playing pickleball and earning money from its hard not to say youre a professional player, just because the tournaments you enter are not cathegorized as professional
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Years ago I won $150 for winning the singles and mixed doubles categories in a tournament. Was I a professional tennis player the year I won that tournament?
 
onehandbh said:
Years ago I won $150 for winning the singles and mixed doubles categories in a tournament. Was I a professional tennis player the year I won that tournament?
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Was it your main activity? Did you spend your day trainning and playing tournaments? Then to me, yes
 
sureshs said:
AI says:

A professional tennis player is someone who competes in tennis tournaments at the highest level, often organized by associations like the ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals) for men or the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) for women.
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Ok, so if you mainly play challengers and are the 200 something in the world, what are you? A professional shoe maker? Are you not allowed to say tennis player when youre asked about your profession? "Oh i spend the day trainnimg and i travel around to play tournaments" but since im not in the best 100 in the world at my profession, im not professional" that doesnt sound right to me
 
TheSlicer said:
Ok, so if you mainly play challengers and are the 200 something in the world, what are you? A professional shoe maker? Are you not allowed to say tennis player when youre asked about your profession? "Oh i spend the day trainnimg and i travel around to play tournaments" but since im not in the best 100 in the world at my profession, im not professional" that doesnt sound right to me
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Challengers are sanctioned pro tournaments
 
sureshs said:
The best term is teaching pro. The usual term "coach" is respectful but to me it seems like a joke when applied to a teaching pro providing lessons to a beginner or conducting adult clinics. Coach suits those teaching pros who are teaching advanced players.
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A classic "distinction without any difference".
 
A professional is someone who earns money from working full time or part time in a certain profession. It’s as simple as that. In tennis, most professionals don’t earn enough money to live from it, but that’s beside the point. In general, professionals in tennis play at a very high level compared to recreational players, unlike photography for instance, where often, professionals are not as good as amateurs, unless they are in the top tier.
 
You have to be top 150 or better to be making enough money to live on tour.

Below that you are a semi-pro journeyman just trying to make it to the next tournament.
 
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