why 3.5 doubles looks and feels nothing like 4.5 doubles.

FiddlerDog

FiddlerDog

Hall of Fame
Former NCAA doubles player analyses an entire match and walks you through his thought process on key points.
Loaded with nugget after nugget of why 3.5 doubles looks and feels nothing like 4.5 doubles.
One of the best doubles videos I have ever watched. There is a lot to discuss in here.

 
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That doubles actually doesn't look that dissimilar to my mens group on Saturday mornings. Just everything is a bit faster, bit more consistent. But positioning wise, we would be very similar.
 
Best advice from that video is make first serves and try to get every return in play but I pretty much already knew that. Also trying to disrupt your opponents by constantly moving and at least pretending you're going to poach.
 
chazz said:
Best advice from that video is make first serves and try to get every return in play but I pretty much already knew that. Also trying to disrupt your opponents by constantly moving and at least pretending you're going to poach.
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There is a fine line between poaching and being a ball hog. Played doubles last night and my opponent's partner constantly poached and I just ignored him and played the majority of the returns crosscourt. He missed virtually every volley, he simply wasn't good enough to cut across and poach. I could see his partner get more and more frustrated as this guy either touched, missed or dumped balls in the net his partner could have easily reached.

No point in crossing if you lack the skill at the net to do it effectively, you don't disrupt your opponents rhythm. Instead they think excellent, free point when this guy tries to poach.
 
eah123 said:
I’m a fan of ET and Ian - this match looks like 4.5 vs 3.5 team.
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Ian's team appeared to be at least half a level above their opponents unless of course they were nervous that the match was being video taped and their games dissected on Ian's YouTube channel with a couple hundred thousand subscribers.
 
zaph said:
No point in crossing if you lack the skill at the net to do it effectively, you don't disrupt your opponents rhythm. Instead they think excellent, free point when this guy tries to poach.
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There is always a point to crossing if only to get in the opponents head. Faking and crossing are key components to the net game. if you are not moving laterally at the net you might was well head back to the baseline. At the very least you need to have the returner's attention.

The solution to screwing up on poaches it to poach more and get better, not to poach less. You will never reach your doubles potential if you are static at the net.
 
Looked more like 4.378 dubs to me but who's really counting... Avid fan of essential tennis and Ian's approach to tennis.
 
zaph said:
There is a fine line between poaching and being a ball hog. Played doubles last night and my opponent's partner constantly poached and I just ignored him and played the majority of the returns crosscourt. He missed virtually every volley, he simply wasn't good enough to cut across and poach. I could see his partner get more and more frustrated as this guy either touched, missed or dumped balls in the net his partner could have easily reached.

No point in crossing if you lack the skill at the net to do it effectively, you don't disrupt your opponents rhythm. Instead they think excellent, free point when this guy tries to poach.
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I like having a partner who poaches a lot, even if he makes more errors than winners. Poaching is where the future is, poach to develop as a players instead of playing simply for what works best now.
 
Looked it up.
The opponents are both rated 4.5
One is low 4.5, the other is mid 4.5

Looks have nothing to do with doubles skills.
Nothing.
 
I just watched both videos again.
Literally the best video on dubs I have ever watched.
This is the definition of giving a masterclass.
 
FiddlerDog said:
This is the exact defective mindset of a clueless 3.5 doubles player.
This is also why they never progress.
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Dartagnan64 said:
There is always a point to crossing if only to get in the opponents head. Faking and crossing are key components to the net game. if you are not moving laterally at the net you might was well head back to the baseline. At the very least you need to have the returner's attention.

The solution to screwing up on poaches it to poach more and get better, not to poach less. You will never reach your doubles potential if you are static at the net.
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FiddlerDog said:
The above is 4.0+ dubs mentality. Well done.
There is nothing worse than being paired up with "lose point. BAD." simpletons
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There is nothing worse than being paired with a simpleton who thinks they have more ability than they do and loses point after point.

Take the doubles match I mentioned in my original post. I was playing the ad side and the majority of the serves were going into my backhand and return most cross court. Now my backhand is a reasonable shot, so when the poacher tried to cross, he missed every poach. Most he couldn't reach and the ones he got a racket on he dumped in the net. So could you explain how exactly he was getting in my head by giving me free points?

You lot remind me of low level singles players who lose to pushers, who take the moral high ground because you're playing tennis the right way. I mean you still lose but that doesn't matter.

I am not saying don't cross or poach. I am saying that if you are loosing point after point doing that, stop. That isn't smart play and your playing partner would right to be annoyed if you kept doing it.
 
zaph said:
I am not saying don't cross or poach. I am saying that if you are loosing point after point doing that, stop. That isn't smart play and your playing partner would right to be annoyed if you kept doing it.
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And I'm saying, if you are losing point after point doing the right thing, then get better. No one is making money on their tennis so as long as the dude is learning something, I say go for it.

But if he's recalcitrant and incapable of learning then I guess all bets are off.

I've gotten a ton better at my net game by being repeatedly aggressive every time I play. If I'd remained timid and scared after dumping some balls into the net or getting passed DTL a few times I wouldn't be the holy terror at net that I've become. And I'd like to thank all my partners that put up with my mistakes early on in the process.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
There is always a point to crossing if only to get in the opponents head. Faking and crossing are key components to the net game. if you are not moving laterally at the net you might was well head back to the baseline. At the very least you need to have the returner's attention.

The solution to screwing up on poaches it to poach more and get better, not to poach less. You will never reach your doubles potential if you are static at the net.
Click to expand...

Dartagnan64 said:
And I'm saying, if you are losing point after point doing the right thing, then get better. No one is making money on their tennis so as long as the dude is learning something, I say go for it.

But if he's recalcitrant and incapable of learning then I guess all bets are off.

I've gotten a ton better at my net game by being repeatedly aggressive every time I play. If I'd remained timid and scared after dumping some balls into the net or getting passed DTL a few times I wouldn't be the holy terror at net that I've become. And I'd like to thank all my partners that put up with my mistakes early on in the process.
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I'm doo doo at net / doubles and this info is great. Thanks
 
Dartagnan64 said:
And I'm saying, if you are losing point after point doing the right thing, then get better. No one is making money on their tennis so as long as the dude is learning something, I say go for it.

But if he's recalcitrant and incapable of learning then I guess all bets are off.

I've gotten a ton better at my net game by being repeatedly aggressive every time I play. If I'd remained timid and scared after dumping some balls into the net or getting passed DTL a few times I wouldn't be the holy terror at net that I've become. And I'd like to thank all my partners that put up with my mistakes early on in the process.
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I agree with this Dubs is a physical and aggressive game. If you can intimidate your opponents all the better. That doesn't come from hanging around on your half of the court. If you aren't getting beaten down the line at least once then I don't think you are being aggressive enough.
 
Yes. For 3.5 or 4.0 doubles, especially if the players are more used to singles (which is very common at 3.5 doubles), the first statitics to check is how many points lost at net. If the points lost at net is very minimal, they are of course not doing enough, and trying to play "comfortable" tennis from baseline. It is OK to be uncomfortable at net when you are learning (and thereby making errors). You will learn from mistakes and experience quickly.

On the other hand if it is 4.5+ doubles, there is something serious technical issue to look into if you are making tons of first volley errors.

Dartagnan64 said:
If I'd remained timid and scared after dumping some balls into the net or getting passed DTL a few times I wouldn't be the holy terror at net that I've become
Click to expand...
 
Morch Us said:
Yes. For 3.5 or 4.0 doubles, especially if the players are more used to singles (which is very common at 3.5 doubles), the first statitics to check is how many points lost at net. If the points lost at net is very minimal, they are of course not doing enough, and trying to play "comfortable" tennis from baseline. It is OK to be uncomfortable at net when you are learning (and thereby making errors). You will learn from mistakes and experience quickly.
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I think it's good to compare it to golf. Missing an easy putaway at the net is like missing a 3 foot putt in golf. You really shouldn't do that routinely. If you go 9 for 10 on easy putaways, that's a +9 and a -1, for a net of +8. But if you putaway only 5 of 10, that's a +5 and a -5, for a net zero. You are effectively winning the point, but blowing it at the critical time.

I'm not saying you should putaway 10 of 10, no one is perfect, but being very erratic on that is unacceptable. You won't become adequate at the net without practicing it. Do you take some at the net in the warm up? You should. A lot of 3.5 players figure that with a big forehand they'll still be decent at doubles. No, you need a net game.

This is like the golfer who is a bad putter, thinking what he needs is another 50 yards in length off the tee. No, he needs to learn how to putt. He needs a more well-rounded game, and so does the tennis player.
 
Nailed it.

This mentality of "your side my side" is prevailant in in-experienced doubles (especially really good singles players). The guy will be "waiting" at baseline, and gets frustrated at the net partner for "stealing" ball coming to his side and making a volley error. It is not about whether the baseline guy "could have" gotten to the ball (even if he could have hit a good shot from baseline). It is about whether there was an "opportunity" at the net.

If there was an opportunity at net, going for it at net is the CORRECT doubles play. If you don't have the volley skills for the level, then either develop it or stop playing doubles for that level (irrespective of your baseline level).

If you want to stay at baseline and "expect" the net partner to leave your side of balls to you so that you can hit a good baseline shot, you might want to re-think whether you really enjoy playing doubles, or should have just stick to singles.

Most of the time when a "baseline" guy complains that his net partner is taking over too many balls coming to your side (and making too many mistakes at net), the reality is different. The baseline guy should check whether he is coming IN enough and closing the "gap". By staying at the baseline, the baseline guy is possibily leaving too much open area for the opponents to hit to, which may lead to too many balls hit to that side of the court. This essentially takes away your net partner from the game, and makes his life difficult at net, eventually leading to wrong decisions/errors.

In good doubles, just closing this gap is good enough to pressure the opponents and extract errors. Many times doubles are not won by great shots, but just by placing the body at right places.

LOBALOT said:
That doesn't come from hanging around on your half of the court.
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Morch Us said:
Nailed it.

This mentality of "your side my side" is prevailant in in-experienced doubles (especially really good singles players). The guy will be "waiting" at baseline, and gets frustrated at the net partner for "stealing" ball coming to his side and making a volley error. It is not about whether the baseline guy "could have" gotten to the ball (even if he could have hit a good shot from baseline). It is about whether there was an "opportunity" at the net.

If there was an opportunity at net, going for it at net is the CORRECT doubles play. If you don't have the volley skills for the level, then either develop it or stop playing doubles for that level (irrespective of your baseline level).

If you want to stay at baseline and "expect" the net partner to leave your side of balls to you so that you can hit a good baseline shot, you might want to re-think whether you really enjoy playing doubles, or should have just stick to singles.

Most of the time when a "baseline" guy complains that his net partner is taking over too many balls coming to your side (and making too many mistakes at net), the reality is different. The baseline guy should check whether he is coming IN enough and closing the "gap". By staying at the baseline, the baseline guy is possibily leaving too much open area for the opponents to hit to, which may lead to too many balls hit to that side of the court. This essentially takes away your net partner from the game, and makes his life difficult at net, eventually leading to wrong decisions/errors.

In good doubles, just closing this gap is good enough to pressure the opponents and extract errors. Many times doubles are not won by great shots, but just by placing the body at right places.
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If this is real doubles, like a tournament or a league, where you know your partner and agreed to be a team, this should all be worked out before you get on a court. If it's a mixer, where you get a new partner every 4 games, kind of like square dancing...just try to have fun.
 
Morch Us said:
Nailed it.

This mentality of "your side my side" is prevailant in in-experienced doubles (especially really good singles players). The guy will be "waiting" at baseline, and gets frustrated at the net partner for "stealing" ball coming to his side and making a volley error. It is not about whether the baseline guy "could have" gotten to the ball (even if he could have hit a good shot from baseline). It is about whether there was an "opportunity" at the net.

If there was an opportunity at net, going for it at net is the CORRECT doubles play. If you don't have the volley skills for the level, then either develop it or stop playing doubles for that level (irrespective of your baseline level).

If you want to stay at baseline and "expect" the net partner to leave your side of balls to you so that you can hit a good baseline shot, you might want to re-think whether you really enjoy playing doubles, or should have just stick to singles.

Most of the time when a "baseline" guy complains that his net partner is taking over too many balls coming to your side (and making too many mistakes at net), the reality is different. The baseline guy should check whether he is coming IN enough and closing the "gap". By staying at the baseline, the baseline guy is possibily leaving too much open area for the opponents to hit to, which may lead to too many balls hit to that side of the court. This essentially takes away your net partner from the game, and makes his life difficult at net, eventually leading to wrong decisions/errors.

In good doubles, just closing this gap is good enough to pressure the opponents and extract errors. Many times doubles are not won by great shots, but just by placing the body at right places.
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Who said anything about hanging at the baseline. I assume you understand the difference between vertical and horizontal. Sides and front and back are two different things so that would be something you should start with an understanding about from the get go. Yes it is logical for players start on each half of the court or at least move so they are on each side of the court. You should start with a fundamental understanding of court positioning and move from there. If you prefer to have the two of you on the same half of the court I am sure your opponents find that beneficial.
 
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Morch Us said:
Most of the time when a "baseline" guy complains that his net partner is taking over too many balls coming to your side (and making too many mistakes at net), the reality is different. The baseline guy should check whether he is coming IN enough and closing the "gap". By staying at the baseline, the baseline guy is possibily leaving too much open area for the opponents to hit to, which may lead to too many balls hit to that side of the court. This essentially takes away your net partner from the game, and makes his life difficult at net, eventually leading to wrong decisions/errors.
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I do agree that often if the net guy isn't getting opportunities its because the baseline guy is failing to help set him up. As the baseline person, your job is to get a sitter more than it is to win the point. Whatever way possible. Short angled slices, high moonballs to the BH, Deep groundstrokes at their feet. Find a way to get the sitter.

If your net guy is active but not getting good opportunities, think about what you are doing as the deeper player.
 
Steady Eddy said:
If this is real doubles, like a tournament or a league, where you know your partner and agreed to be a team, this should all be worked out before you get on a court. If it's a mixer, where you get a new partner every 4 games, kind of like square dancing...just try to have fun.
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Even in a mixer you should be trying to set your net guy up and trying to be active as a net person. If they choose to take advantage of what you are doing then great. If not, you are still working on effective doubles play from your perspective. You can always take that to a tournament.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I do agree that often if the net guy isn't getting opportunities its because the baseline guy is failing to help set him up. As the baseline person, your job is to get a sitter more than it is to win the point. Whatever way possible. Short angled slices, high moonballs to the BH, Deep groundstrokes at their feet. Find a way to get the sitter.

If your net guy is active but not getting good opportunities, think about what you are doing as the deeper player.
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I agree with this philosophy. I'm always trying to give my net guy opportunities based off my shots as the baseliner.
 
Devil_dog said:
I agree with this philosophy. I'm always trying to give my net guy opportunities based off my shots as the baseliner.
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One of my favorite combos is the deep return then short slice combo. Often leads to my opponent having to rush forward and reach for a low short ball, while I'm moving in and my net partner is on his toes ready to attack. I try to do this on most second serve opportunities.
 
@Devil_dog kudos for understanding that baseline guy is the "setup" guy, and should really be defending and setting things up (rather than winners).

As @Dartagnan64 mentioned, it is also important to "move in" as needed to "close the gap" (use your body), even if you work properly to setup the net opportunities (from baseline).

Otherwise the net guys opportunities, even when presented can be harder (since the ball is going to go where there is a "gap", which is to baseline guy, and then the net guy has some decisions to make, whether he can finish that "floater" moving away from him by a volley effectively or not. By the baseline guy moving in, you take away this "gap" and either you or your netguy can finish the volley based on where the ball is going. (keeping it a simpler decision for your net guy).


Devil_dog said:
I'm always trying to give my net guy opportunities based off my shots as the baseliner.
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Dartagnan64 said:
while I'm moving in
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Have you tried it? It is infact not as easy for opponents as you think. It is infact a good setup and not that uncommon, for ad-side serve. A lot of players are good with cross court backhand returns and short angled cross court slices, but may not be as comfortable for a down the line hard flat shot. So the netguy is placed on same side as the server possibly makes it an effective formation, and it is not as hard for the baseline guy to defend and setup the balls down the line, which the netguy may not be able to reach.

The point you are missing is that with one-up-one-down formation, the guy at net has the "right of way". Or the guy at net is covering the whole court and trying to get to every ball he can volley down (offensive volley), and some balls he can volley up (defensive volley). The baseline guy is covering the balls the net guy decides to leave (and also maybe covering the whole court, defensively mostly).

When someone is staying for an extended period of time at baseline, the number of decisions the netguy has to make per point is a lot (making the chance of bad decisions higher).

This is why good balanced doubles players try to get out of one-up-one-down as soon as possible, so that both guys can cover the gaps effectively and less bad decisions can be made.

LOBALOT said:
If you prefer to have the two of you on the same half of the court I am sure your opponents find that beneficial.
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