Why almost no tennis coaches can actually coach worth a damn.

[TimeToPlaySets]

I had 4 different coaches look at my serve, in 2016, and not one person mentioned that I should not be directly facing the net. The internet finally told me I should stand more sideways, for more shoulder rotation. That is basic basic stuff, and no one spotted such a massive glare. Instead I was given useless new-age tripe like "Just envision the ball going over the net, and it will go over the net" or just repeating "hit up on the ball". Nothing about feet, contact point, balance, moving towards the target, weight shift, Conti grip, etc.

Theory: Who takes tennis lessons? People who are not at work! Who is that? Little kids and housewives. Both tend to suck at tennis at the most basic level, and coaches are mostly just babysitting and keeping them entertained (and coming back for more paid lessons) rather than building a real tennis player. If you actually try to make the lesson repetitive muscle memory work (which expert physical skills require), then they stop coming, and no more money.

So, I think they just repeatedly teach one or two basic things like how to hold the racket and "brush up on the ball" and predominantly coach people at the 2.0 and 2.5, maybe 3.0 level for their entire careers. These rec league coaches don't drill lasting foundational concepts, b/c that sucks and is not fun. Instead, they just teach a few hack band-aids to get the person able to hit the ball over the net. They probably never ever coach serving or volleys. Just groundstrokes and silly little games with the group lesson. That's all.

I think the entire goal of the majority of tennis coaching is getting the housewife/child to just hit the ball over the net. Anyone who is serious must get coaching from somewhere else, like their college coaches, private coaches, or IMG types of places. The only real "expert" coaching I have seen is online, where these coaches work at very costly academies where they routinely deal with skilled players.

Most working adults do not take lessons. Very few invest time and money in actually getting better via practice, feeds, drills. Instead, they just play and invest money into court time and useless USTA fees so they can keep score of their flawed games. Play does not make you better, practice does. When a coach gets a serious 3.5 or 4.0 male adult student, I think they don't even know what to do with them. By 3.5, they know how to "brush up" and how to hold the racket. So, that's about the limit of the rec club coach ability anyway, since that's all he ever teaches. I think they do not know how to teach that level, since they teach 2.0 level babysitting most of their careers.

 

[Dso]

I think you are off your rocker. LOL Like most people in life- some coaches are good, and some not. The better ones help you focus on what gives you the most bang for the buck. A GOOD coach could shred my strokes to pieces… but I'd expect they will help you focus on one to two aspects of your serve at a time.

Are you saying when you were serving your shoulders were square with the net????? If so I'm guessing you are brand new at tennis.

 

[scotus]

It's hard to say what those coaches were doing.

If I were a coach, I would not completely deconstruct someone's serve unless it was absolutely necessary AND I had that person under my tutelage for a long time.

Perhaps those coaches wanted to point out one or two most urgent matters first, rather than point out all the details?

One thing is for sure. There are many coaches, I mean many many coaches, who can help improve 3.5-4.0 players.

 

[Booger]

1. Little to no formal education or training required
2. Junior tennis is a dying sport in the US
3. Relatively low pay
4. Most customers are < 4.0 players

What do you expect?

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Yes, tennis coaches are useless just like basketball coaches. I hired 24 different coaches to look at my dunking and no one mentioned that I'm too short, fat and can't jump.

 

[mad dog1]

Yes, tennis coaches are useless just like basketball coaches. I hired 24 different coaches to look at my dunking and no one mentioned that I'm too short, fat and can't jump.

Can't believe nobody told you were too old!!!

 

[mad dog1]

A lot of coaches are 4.0-4.5 players. I've even seen 3.5 players coaching and offering instruction to others. How many 3.5-4.5 players have you seen who have really fundamentally sounds serves? I haven't seen many.

 

[mad dog1]

duplicate post

 

[Booger]

A lot of coaches are 4.0-4.5 players. I've even seen 3.5 players coaching and offering instruction to others. How many 3.5-4.5 players have you seen who have really fundamentally sounds serves? I haven't seen many.

My gym is constantly pushing personal training sessions on customers, but none of the dozen or so PT's they employ look like they've ever touched a weight.

 

[CopolyX]

What Mediocre Tennis Coaches Do not Want You to Know
If you’re serious about tennis, you will probably have to hire a coach sooner rather than later to lead you in the right direction. Because tennis is a high touch activity, your tennis coach will become like a family member over the years and for that reason, you should choose wisely.

The coaching industry is no different than every other — mediocrity, inexperience, and ego are rampant. But in other industries, there are different levels to designate people of different experience or caliber. In tennis instruction, there’s only one: tennis pro. That’s why you really need to do your research and make sure your coach makes the grade.

At the end of the day, there are two main secrets of mediocre tennis coaches that you should watch out for:

Secret #1: Carelessness: The first secret a mediocre tennis coach doesn’t want you to know is that they have no interest in your improvements, they just want to get paid. Tennis is a business and the more you come, the more money the tennis coach will make. It is a little bit like the pharmaceutical industry — having you on the medication for life is more profitable than constantly looking for new students. If you’ve taken many lessons, but aren’t seeing major improvements, you may be working with a mediocre tennis coach.

Secret #2: Ignorance: Mediocre coaches simply don’t know how to teach certain skills because they don’t have the ability themselves. No one is perfect, but good coaches will admit when they’re not proficient in a certain skill. It’s a red flag if your tennis coach gives you a pretense that a specific skill is not necessary for you to know. Resourceful and passionate inexperienced coaches will overcome their ignorance by continuing to learn and grow. As long as they’re willing to learn, inexperienced coaches can actually make fantastic coaches for beginners.

The great thing about tennis is that the majority of the pros have a true love of the game and they enjoy sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm with others. But remember, just because someone is a nice person doesn’t mean they are the right coach for you. Make sure your tennis coach has the skills to take you where you want to go, and the drive to see you improve.

Source:
T.C.

 

[heninfan99]

I just got back from a lesson, last few years over the holidays I treat my self to one or two lessons but I always make sure the coach played Division 1 this way even if they can't give great tips it will be a great hitting session.

I think the quality of the questions one asks also makes a big difference, sometimes you have to coax a good tip out of them.

Call it ageism but I prefer either older coaches (over 60) or young guys that are still in college competing. The ones with a baby on the way and mortgages are the worst.

 

[sureshs]

Theory: Who takes tennis lessons? People who are not at work! Who is that? Little kids and housewives. Both tend to suck at tennis at the most basic level, and coaches are mostly just babysitting and keeping them entertained (and coming back for more paid lessons) rather than building a real tennis player. If you actually try to make the lesson repetitive muscle memory work (which expert physical skills require), then they stop coming, and no more money.

Federer, Nadal, Murray, and Djokovic all have coaches.

All junior players take lessons.

Housewives are at work at home, at their children's schools, as volunteers, and shopping in grocery stores.

Women who work outside or inside the home in offices also take lessons, and they are generally slotted after 5 pm.

Many housewives do not take lessons, but just play doubles in the mornings.

But you are correct that self-made men like me don't take lessons but we benefit from free Internet advice from coaches like John Yandell, Gas Tennis, and Sys Anally.

 

[scotus]

I just got back from a lesson, last few years over the holidays I treat my self to one or two lessons but I always make sure the coach played Division 1 this way even if they can't give great tips it will be a great hitting session.

I think the quality of the questions one asks also makes a big difference, sometimes you have to coax a good tip out of them.

You can also hire some of these former collegiate players for hitting sessions at a lower rate than instructional lessons.

 

[sureshs]

1. Little to no formal education or training required

From Jan 2017, continuing education credits (6 credits in 3 years) has become mandatory to retain USPTA membership.

 

[heninfan99]

You can also hire some of these former collegiate players for hitting sessions at a lower rate than instructional lessons.

sure! offered that tip here before but that won't help a 3.5 much imo

 

[ElMagoElGato]

First of all, I agree with OP. I see the situation of OP all the time around me. But then, being a 3.5 player myself, I predict next problem of OP. There're more than a few coaches that instruct every single detail of mechanical, footwork, tactics, and so on. And those coaches are totally different each other. You're eager to learn but it's very difficult when one coach tells you to face sideway and another tells you to face front. And it's also very difficult to judge who is good because a wrong one sounds convincing in many cases and you're only 3.5.

 

[Chotobaka]

I find it very hard to believe that you could find 4 actual coaches who did not begin serve instruction with correct foot position and stance as one of the first two points of discussion. That just seems so improbable.

Aside from that highly questionable opening statement, your theory does not accurately reflect what I have seen in the coaching community in my area. Yes, some coaches are more qualified than others. Some are specialists. Some do a great job. Some are mediocre. There are a few that are totally unqualified and/or inept --they usually do not last.

However, your simplistic blanket condemnation really is off the wall.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Tough market for the buyer. Not got the knowledge to distinguish the bandits from the brilliant. I could stack rank every coach in each area of my country based on where you are who would be best to go to roughly speaking but they have the same qualification and are charging the same money as guys that are hobbiests as players and coaches

The other thing is that adjusting someones base on their serve is a big move. If you dont know what the client is trying to achieve in terms of improvement you may not make such a change that can make playing the game pretty tough if youre not putting serves in the court. Additionally whos to say its the most glaring or going to have the largest impact on improving the serve? Obviously its fairly fundamental but if we're only going to change one thing at a time maybe to change that wouldnt have the largest positive impact

It's the same everywhere, I guess. Serve instruction is the worst. I finally have a coach who is pretty good at breaking down specific problems in my shot and correcting them. In spite of which...hold your breath..he told me to hold the ball under my palm for the toss!!! This is something I already don't do and still struggle with consistency. I finally came across a superb video (can't recall the name of that instructor offhand) where he said it's best to position the fingers on the sides of the ball rather than underneath. It's helped focus the toss in one spot so I know where to aim the racquet at (which is what Simon also said in his video). And he (the aforesaid coach) is not BAD himself at serving, by any means. He has zero problems himself with the toss and his serves have plenty of spin. When he really ratchets up the pace, it's kind of like playing genuine pace bowling (cricket). I just see a bounce and the ball make contact on my racquet (if I am lucky) or whiz past. My experience with forehand/backhand coaching hasn't been nearly as bad but again for the forehand, I used the Christophe Delavaut video as a model for my stroke. Later on, the 'on field' coaches made some useful modifications and guided me as to how much to release and ideal contact point etc. But perhaps had I been less proactive, I would still have an Eastern forehand lol!

 

[Daniel_K]

It's hard to say what those coaches were doing.

If I were a coach, I would not completely deconstruct someone's serve unless it was absolutely necessary AND I had that person under my tutelage for a long time.

Perhaps those coaches wanted to point out one or two most urgent matters first, rather than point out all the details?

One thing is for sure. There are many coaches, I mean many many coaches, who can help improve 3.5-4.0 players.

I like this a lot^

my opinion is that tennis is a repetition game. you get better by doing one thing over and over and over. with a serve if you gave the ball to most players under 4.0 and told them to stand like you should and hit the ball like you should with the motion like you should they might get two or three out of ten serves in. have them stand facing the net and do a more "frying pan" type serve and they can probably get seven or eight of the balls in. as they progress they begin to start to move to a more "normal" serve motion and stand in a more normal serve position. its not immediate though and there will be a lot of transition. I think that most coaches realize this but also don't want to rush people into specific areas util they see it would benefit the person. same goes for any shot. when learning forehand its always pretty textbook, wait for the ball to bounce, envision hitting the ball, more racquet up to ball, hit. a coach won't immediately go into all the parts, at least until they see solidity in other things.

 

[tennis_balla]

@TimeToPlaySets

How much did you pay to these coaches per hour?

 

[Todd Hicks]

I had 4 different coaches look at my serve, in 2016, and not one person mentioned that I should not be directly facing the net. The internet finally told me I should stand more sideways, for more shoulder rotation. That is basic basic stuff, and no one spotted such a massive glare. Instead I was given useless new-age tripe like "Just envision the ball going over the net, and it will go over the net" or just repeating "hit up on the ball". Nothing about feet, contact point, balance, moving towards the target, weight shift, Conti grip, etc.

Theory: Who takes tennis lessons? People who are not at work! Who is that? Little kids and housewives. Both tend to suck at tennis at the most basic level, and coaches are mostly just babysitting and keeping them entertained (and coming back for more paid lessons) rather than building a real tennis player. If you actually try to make the lesson repetitive muscle memory work (which expert physical skills require), then they stop coming, and no more money.

So, I think they just repeatedly teach one or two basic things like how to hold the racket and "brush up on the ball" and predominantly coach people at the 2.0 and 2.5, maybe 3.0 level for their entire careers. These rec league coaches don't drill lasting foundational concepts, b/c that sucks and is not fun. Instead, they just teach a few hack band-aids to get the person able to hit the ball over the net. They probably never ever coach serving or volleys. Just groundstrokes and silly little games with the group lesson. That's all.

I think the entire goal of the majority of tennis coaching is getting the housewife/child to just hit the ball over the net. Anyone who is serious must get coaching from somewhere else, like their college coaches, private coaches, or IMG types of places. The only real "expert" coaching I have seen is online, where these coaches work at very costly academies where they routinely deal with skilled players.

Most working adults do not take lessons. Very few invest time and money in actually getting better via practice, feeds, drills. Instead, they just play and invest money into court time and useless USTA fees so they can keep score of their flawed games. Play does not make you better, practice does. When a coach gets a serious 3.5 or 4.0 male adult student, I think they don't even know what to do with them. By 3.5, they know how to "brush up" and how to hold the racket. So, that's about the limit of the rec club coach ability anyway, since that's all he ever teaches. I think they do not know how to teach that level, since they teach 2.0 level babysitting most of their careers.

It may not be so easy to coach if you've never actually played the game much or you forgot some of what you did due to being out of practice. I'll also point out that someone may be able to coach pros without truly being able to do what they do. The coaches probably couldn't beat their players, especially the top ones. Some likely coach out of having the experience while others probably coach mainly out of instinct and determining how players can improve by watching them.

 

[PittsburghDad]

In my experience, the best coaches do not work on the individual, meet me at the court with my basket of balls, give m $65 an hour model. I have never seen a situation where you get what you paid for in that setting. The very best coaches are in systems. The coach has facilities, is good at the business of tennis, has a stable of all types of players to organize formal or informal hits, has coaches who specialize in video, has different specialists for different things, at higher levels there are even off court training specialists and physios on scene.

The level of coaching at those types of facilities is so much better and the experience is a far step beyond the coach on a random court. And its not THAT much more expensive. And if they exist in the tennis netherlands of Pittsburgh, I have to believe they exist somewhere near to most cities.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's the same everywhere, I guess. Serve instruction is the worst. I finally have a coach who is pretty good at breaking down specific problems in my shot and correcting them. In spite of which...hold your breath..he told me to hold the ball under my palm for the toss!!!

So when you release the ball, is it still under your palm? That would seem to be an awkward way to toss: it would be too easy to impart spin on the ball.

I finally came across a superb video (can't recall the name of that instructor offhand) where he said it's best to position the fingers on the sides of the ball rather than underneath.

Do you find it easier to achieve minimal spin this way?

Let me back up: is spin a problem or is it more location?

I don't think about my toss that much since I believe there are many other things that are more broken with my serve relative to my toss.

I've been taught to think of the toss as "lifting" the ball and as such, you want to minimize joint movement [fingers, wrist, elbow, & shoulder]. My analogy is volleyball: beginners pass with their arms: they swing a lot, oftentimes hitting the ball backwards. Advanced players pass with their legs: they bend their legs as the ball is approaching, make a flat surface with their arms, and push upwards with their legs; minimal swing of the arms. The result is a much more stable, less variable pass.

But perhaps had I been less proactive, I would still have an Eastern forehand lol!

Hey, what's wrong with an E FH?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I like this a lot^

my opinion is that tennis is a repetition game. you get better by doing one thing over and over and over. with a serve if you gave the ball to most players under 4.0 and told them to stand like you should and hit the ball like you should with the motion like you should they might get two or three out of ten serves in. have them stand facing the net and do a more "frying pan" type serve and they can probably get seven or eight of the balls in. as they progress they begin to start to move to a more "normal" serve motion and stand in a more normal serve position. its not immediate though and there will be a lot of transition. I think that most coaches realize this but also don't want to rush people into specific areas util they see it would benefit the person. same goes for any shot. when learning forehand its always pretty textbook, wait for the ball to bounce, envision hitting the ball, more racquet up to ball, hit. a coach won't immediately go into all the parts, at least until they see solidity in other things.

The problem with this approach is that many, if not most, will never want to break out of that comfort zone and re-work their serve. It comes down to whether you do it optimally initially and work through the short-term pain or do it sub-optimally initially and achieve short-term success. It may depend on the student. It may depend on the coach.

Specifically, I think the issue is that, to go from sub-optimal to optimal, you have to change at least 2 fundamental things at once: grip [frying pan to Continental] and stance [sideways vs forward]. If you try and do things incrementally by just changing one, you will likely end up with a mess. Florian Meier had a good bio-mechanical explanation of why the two variables go together naturally. In this case, I think it's a matter of "You can't cross a chasm in two leaps": changing both things and then working on getting comfortable seems superior to working on just one at a time.

My analogy would be learning how to touch-type: initially, you'll be horrible because you can't remember where the *#@! "e" key is. Your speed will be in the gutter, way worse than if you used two-finger hunt and peck. At some point, however, you will become faster...way faster. If you give people the option, most will opt for hunt and peck. Only those willing to practice for many hours will succeed but the payout is huge.

The same concept applies to learning how to play an instrument.

Only the student will be able to make this choice; no amount of preaching by the coach will make the student go out and practice. The student might just conclude that he needs to find another coach, one that will tell him what he wants to hear.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

More and more I realise this saying is true: "use the very best coaches or use youtube and a video camera"

 

[movdqa]

We have one good coach at my club and the rest are awful. The rest play around 3.5 level and provide most of the lessons. The one good coach is not affiliated with my club. He just uses the courts to teach. He's a former college player and I'd guess that he's 5.5 right now and was probably higher when he was younger. He charges a small fortune and he gets the serious customers.

If I wanted instruction one to one, I'd go with this guy. As it is, I'm pretty happy learning from the folks here as I've learned a lot from the guys here.

 

[PittsburghDad]

More and more I realise this saying is true: "use the very best coaches or use youtube and a video camera"

One of the most spot on sentences I've read on the boards.

 

[GuyClinch]

Not this again..

1) Get coaches who are currently 5.0+ players.
2) Hit with them.
3) Improve.

You will gain benefit simply from hitting with very good players who can place a lot of balls for you to hit and move you around.
If they can give you some tips - that's even better. It's tennis not rocket science. Even strong players can generally give tips that will help bad players. This idea that for rec players there are no good coaches for JAG 3.5s - hogwash. Entire college teams could coach those guys up..

You do get this is pretty much all pro coaches are. They are decent players who decided to make a living out of it. It's the same with skiing, surfing etc. Just watching and hitting with superior players is enough. This is the real way all the pros have learned.

Now if you are dumb enough to sign up with some 3.5 huckster full of zen BS who can't and never could play that you found on Craiglist. That's likely a problem. But you wouldn't find those guys on the staff of any decent club.

Now for 5.0+ juniors - that's a whole other ball of wax - and you need to look for a different skill set and a track record of success in coaching..

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Yes, tennis coaches are useless just like basketball coaches. I hired 24 different coaches to look at my dunking and no one mentioned that I'm too short, fat and can't jump.

I've run marathons.
I've been doing Crossfit, Yoga, and Pilates for the last decade.
I do core work several times a week.
Have lifted weights for the last 30 years straight.
I do sprint and field conditioning every summer long.
I've shot one under par and shot a handful of eagles during my golf career.

But, I guess I am not fit enough to serve a tennis ball correctly.

I just got back from a lesson, last few years over the holidays I treat my self to one or two lessons but I always make sure the coach played Division 1 this way even if they can't give great tips it will be a great hitting session.

Call it ageism but I prefer either older coaches (over 60) or young guys that are still in college competing. The ones with a baby on the way and mortgages are the worst.

Interesting theory.
Young coaches are not far removed from their own training and drill.
Old coaches have experience and have survived the burn out stage since they actually enjoy their career
(but old coaches might by hyper-realistic ....lead to band aids, knowing their client will likely quit tennis once they have kids, get a job, get a promotion, etc)

You can also hire some of these former collegiate players for hitting sessions at a lower rate than instructional lessons.

Great point. This summer, much of my coaching was trying to reinforce the same basics. Muscle memory.
However, it was still coaching, since they were monitoring what I was doing wrong.
It's basically impossible to self-regulate and self-monitor while trying to learn.
Knowing what to do, and actually doing it are two different universes.
Particularly when you are breaking decades of comfortable bad habits.
So, you still need an active coach long after even when you know what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Practice without feedback just makes you get really good at doing the wrong thing.

First of all, I agree with OP. I see the situation of OP all the time around me. But then, being a 3.5 player myself, I predict next problem of OP. There're more than a few coaches that instruct every single detail of mechanical, footwork, tactics, and so on. And those coaches are totally different each other. You're eager to learn but it's very difficult when one coach tells you to face sideway and another tells you to face front. And it's also very difficult to judge who is good because a wrong one sounds convincing in many cases and you're only 3.5.

Great point. I have seen lots of conflicting info.
One internet guy says my serve "balance" is off.
Another coach says it's totally irrelevant, and looks at me funny.

Tough market for the buyer. Not got the knowledge to distinguish the bandits from the brilliant. I could stack rank every coach in each area of my country based on where you are who would be best to go to roughly speaking but they have the same qualification and are charging the same money as guys that are hobbiests as players and coaches

Great point. When you don't know, it's impossible to know who is incompetent.
This applies to hiring anyone: financial planner, electrician, music teacher, SAT tutor, or tennis coach.

I like this a lot^
my opinion is that tennis is a repetition game. you get better by doing one thing over and over and over. .

100% agree.
This is why people need coaches for their entire tennis careers.

In my experience, the best coaches do not work on the individual, meet me at the court with my basket of balls, give m $65 an hour model. I have never seen a situation where you get what you paid for in that setting. The very best coaches are in systems. The coach has facilities, is good at the business of tennis, has a stable of all types of players to organize formal or informal hits, has coaches who specialize in video, has different specialists for different things, at higher levels there are even off court training specialists and physios on scene.

The level of coaching at those types of facilities is so much better and the experience is a far step beyond the coach on a random court. And its not THAT much more expensive. And if they exist in the tennis netherlands of Pittsburgh, I have to believe they exist somewhere near to most cities.

BEST POST OF THE THREAD.
I applied the same logic to "group lessons"
Group lessons are a complete and total waste of money. (You barely get any tips, and if you do, do not retain anything without drill and repetition)
They are fine for a 2.0 who needs court time, but are a waste of time and money for a 3.5+
I decided that ONE private $75 lesson would be more beneficial than 50 group lessons at $20 each.
Quality over quantity.

So, damn, you're right.
Instead of finding discounted "meet me at the high school" coach for $65,
maybe I am better off paying $100/hr for a good indoor coach at a club.
Like you said, the difference isn't that much.
The bottom line is that if the coaching is not working,
The problem with that is that it takes YEARS of coaching and drill for something to truly take hold. Even more when there are bad habits to undo.
Only a fool will expect instant results, so when do you pull the plug? After 2 years and still no results?
But the point is taken. A ****ty coach is not worth any amount of money.
And a great coach is worth 10x that of a **** coach, and becomes a great value, in comparison.

The problem is that some of these coaches simultaneously work at clubs and do charge $100 hour to club patrons (and charge $60 on the side)
In that case, paying more gets you the same thing. I think the key is to go to a club, find a coach that is good. If he also does stuff on the side, then fine, but go in that order.

Also find a coach that trains skilled juniors, not housewives and daycamps.
IMG is the epitome of this.

More and more I realise this saying is true: "use the very best coaches or use youtube and a video camera"

I am starting to understand this logic, but getting internet video advice is very very limited.
It is impossible to self-monitor your errors, so you will quickly hit a wall without live feedback.
Practice without feedback just makes you get very good at doing the wrong thing over and over.
Practice makes permanent.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You will gain benefit simply from hitting with very good players who can place a lot of balls for you to hit and move you around.
If they can give you some tips - that's even better. It's tennis not rocket science. Even strong players can generally give tips that will help bad players. This idea that for rec players there are no good coaches for JAG 3.5s - hogwash. Entire college teams could coach those guys up..
.

I disagree 100%.

If I play baseball with the NY Yankees, it won't make me a great baseball player.
If I play golf with Tiger Woods, for a month straight, daily, I won't magically become a great golfer.
If I hit tennis balls with Nadal, for a month straight, daily, I won't magically become a great tennis player. I might even get worse, as I try to band-aid may way through without being taught the correct technique.
If I sit in on a jam session with Joe Pass, I don't suddenly become a jazz great. I just get in the way, and probably get worse.
You need to be TAUGHT the correct form and technique, and then you need to practice it for 10,000 hours (or 2000 balls a day, like Andre)

Osmosis only works with liquids, not skills.

 

[SinjinCooper]

I disagree 100%.

If I play baseball with the NY Yankees, it won't make me a great baseball player.
If I play golf with Tiger Woods, for a month straight, daily, I won't magically become a great golfer.
If I hit tennis balls with Nadal, for a month straight, daily, I won't magically become a great tennis player. I might even get worse, as I try to band-aid may way through without being taught the correct technique.
If I sit in on a jam session with Joe Pass, I don't suddenly become a jazz great. I just get in the way, and probably get worse.
You need to be TAUGHT the correct form and technique, and then you need to practice it for 10,000 hours (or 2000 balls a day, like Andre)

Osmosis only works with liquids, not skills.

It is clear why you are a 3.5. You will never be better than that because of your mind, not your body.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I've played with 5.0 players.
My footwork did not magically correct itself.
I didn't suddenly start serving 100mph.
I did not suddenly start volleying like a pro.
In fact, I got worse b/c I was not able to play at the level I am capable of.
Instead I just got aced, passed, and slammed.

Now, go back and re-read "The Secret" and envision yourself winning Wimbledon next Spring.
I'll be sure to tune in!

 

[GuyClinch]

If I play baseball with the NY Yankees, it won't make me a great baseball player. It will largely be a waste of time.
If I play golf with Tiger Woods, for a month straight, daily, I won't magically become a great golfer.
If I hit tennis balls with Nadal, for a month straight, daily, I won't magically become a great tennis player. It will largely be a waste of time.
You need to be TAUGHT the correct form and technique, and then you need to practice it for 10,000 hours (or 2000 balls a day, like Andre)

It's not magic. It's how people improve at sports. Its how it has always worked. Think back to before they had tennis 'lessons' - good players would play each other at that sport. They would notice their opponent do something particularly well - and then they would mimic that. This is the essence of learning and teaching.

Eventually, these 'good' players got into such demand - they realized they could charge people to hit with them. Again it's the same with skiing, surfing, basketball etc.

The fact that this does not work for you - doesn't mean there is something wrong with the teaching - but with the student. Put 100 players with a 5.0 - have them hit with them every day - and instruct the 5.0 to provide a challenge but not try to overpower them - and most of those players will improve.

This is precisely what all the female pro tennis players do on the tour. They have male hitters - that do exactly this. This will make you better at tennis. Well almost anyone better at tennis. ALMOST being the key word.

Not saying its a good use of money. Not saying that it is the best way. Not saying its the fastest way. I am saying that playing tennis with players better then you - who are trying to challenge you but not crush you - who have excellent command and good strokes - is going to help most players. And this is what you end up paying for.

If that is not enough to help you - well frankly you probably won't get better at tennis anyway.

Talk to most good players - and they will credit playing with other good players. This holds true in nearly every sport - like basketball, boxing etc. This atmosphere of competition is key..

 

[movdqa]

It's not magic. It's how people improve at sports. Its how it has always worked. Think back to before they had tennis 'lessons' - good players would play each other at that sport. They would notice their opponent do something particularly well - and then they would mimic that. This is the essence of learning and teaching.

Eventually, these 'good' players got into such demand - they realized they could charge people to hit with them. Again it's the same with skiing, surfing, basketball etc.

The fact that this does not work for you - doesn't mean there is something wrong with the teaching - but with the student. Put 100 players with a 5.0 - have them hit with them every day - and instruct the 5.0 to provide a challenge but not try to overpower them - and most of those players will improve.

This is precisely what all the female pro tennis players do on the tour. They have male hitters - that do exactly this. This will make you better at tennis. Well almost anyone better at tennis. ALMOST being the key word.

Not saying its a good use of money. Not saying that it is the best way. Not saying its the fastest way. I am saying that playing tennis with players better then you - who are trying to challenge you but not crush you - who have excellent command and good strokes - is going to help most players. And this is what you end up paying for.

If that is not enough to help you - well frankly you probably won't get better at tennis anyway.

Talk to most good players - and they will credit playing with other good players. This holds true in nearly every sport - like basketball, boxing etc. This atmosphere of competition is key..

I remember a later pro, maybe Agassi, watching Connors and Borg on TV and he try out things that they did in their matches on the court.

One guy that I hit with regularly uses tactics that he sees in pro matches. It took me several years before I caught on to what he was doing because he changed his tactics from time to time as I figured out how to respond to a different approach. Some people can learn from watching other good players or from hitting with other good players just as some people can learn professional skills without a college degree.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Playing with better players only works if you already know what to do, and you're practicing and applying.

If you've never heard of a continual grip, you will not magically start using it bc a 5.0 is beating your ass around the court. I played for 30 years and used forehand grip for every shot in tennis. Didn't learn what CONTI was until passing for 35 years. When I took lessons.

You don't become a great musician by going to concerts. Typical American shortcut mindset that has zero grasp on how to learn a new skill.

I played against better players for years. Guess what, I had a dink 2nd serve the entire time. I didn't magically develop a topspin kick serve. You know how I got a topspin serve started? When someone showed me exactly how to do it, and then practiced it ..

Playing against Federer, or watching him on TV, will not make me a great volleyer. Practicing volleys until my arm falls off will make me a better volleyer.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I've seen people who have been playing at the same 3.5 level for decades.... DECADES. They do not get better. They play the same caliber game for DECADES. Playing did not make you better, practice and drill does

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Playing does not make you better, it just makes you do what you already know...practice and drill brings you to a new level. It's called learning a new skill.

Your osmosis claims are as silly as thinking that since OJ closely dealt with top lawyers for many years, OJ is now a skilled lawyer. NOT

 

[Moveforwardalways]

It's not magic. It's how people improve at sports. Its how it has always worked. Think back to before they had tennis 'lessons' - good players would play each other at that sport. They would notice their opponent do something particularly well - and then they would mimic that. This is the essence of learning and teaching.

Eventually, these 'good' players got into such demand - they realized they could charge people to hit with them. Again it's the same with skiing, surfing, basketball etc.

The fact that this does not work for you - doesn't mean there is something wrong with the teaching - but with the student. Put 100 players with a 5.0 - have them hit with them every day - and instruct the 5.0 to provide a challenge but not try to overpower them - and most of those players will improve.

This is precisely what all the female pro tennis players do on the tour. They have male hitters - that do exactly this. This will make you better at tennis. Well almost anyone better at tennis. ALMOST being the key word.

Not saying its a good use of money. Not saying that it is the best way. Not saying its the fastest way. I am saying that playing tennis with players better then you - who are trying to challenge you but not crush you - who have excellent command and good strokes - is going to help most players. And this is what you end up paying for.

If that is not enough to help you - well frankly you probably won't get better at tennis anyway.

Talk to most good players - and they will credit playing with other good players. This holds true in nearly every sport - like basketball, boxing etc. This atmosphere of competition is key..

Enough said. Stone cold truth right here.

 

[movdqa]

Playing with better players only works if you already know what to do, and you're practicing and applying.

If you've never heard of a continual grip, you will not magically start using it bc a 5.0 is beating your ass around the court. I played for 30 years and used forehand grip for every shot in tennis. Didn't learn what CONTI was until passing for 35 years. When I took lessons.

You don't become a great musician by going to concerts. Typical American shortcut mindset that has zero grasp on how to learn a new skill.

I played against better players for years. Guess what, I had a dink 2nd serve the entire time. I didn't magically develop a topspin kick serve. You know how I got a topspin serve started? When someone showed me exactly how to do it, and then practiced it ..

Playing against Federer, or watching him on TV, will not make me a great volleyer. Practicing volleys until my arm falls off will make me a better volleyer.

I learned about the four major grips for the forehand back in the 1980s from a book on tennis. I used to regularly borrow books on tennis when I was a teenager and just did self-study on it. I read about the advantages and disadvantages of the various grips and what it meant for playing someone else with a particular grip. You can learn an amazing amount of stuff by reading books from the library.

Today, we have this thing called the internet which makes things dirt-easy compared to the old days.

I had a shower drain clog a few months ago and managed to fix it myself with a cheap tool from Home Depot. It would have cost me over $100 to call a plumber to do the same thing. I've fixed things with my cars over the years with YouTube too. But I also learned how to do Mozilla builds from code and taught myself vector assembler design and programming on my own. Some folks are like that and some prefer someone to teach them.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Surely you can not be this stupid.

Shower drains are for amateurs.
I've learned to rebuild an entire car engine from the internet, books, and YouTube.

Any idiot can unclog his shower drain by watching a video.
Info is everywhere, but knowing you need it is a whole different issue.
Do you understand the difference?

Your shower was clogged, so it was clear you had a problem needing solving.
That is the easiest part. Doing it is a mere footnote.

The thing you don't understand is that a person WON'T EVEN KNOW HIS GRIP IS WRONG.
When someone is not using Conti for serve or volley or backhand or overheads,
merely getting your ass kicked by a 5.0 won't magically reveal this to him.
Why would it. I did it for 30 years. Why on earth would I think my grip is wrong?
Why hell would I get a book to find out about grips? I am already holding the racket!!! DUH.

For example, maybe I am walking incorrectly. Maybe there is a better way to walk, and it's all over YouTube. Of course, any idiot can watch YouTube and learn to walk correctly.
However, it has not even occurred to me that there is a problem with how I walk, so why the **** would I go to YouTube to find out how to walk through correct way? I think I AM walking correctly. Get it?

And we are not even talking about reading or videos, we are talking about the magic shortcut of "Just play with 5.0 and you'll get better", remember?
No need to learn technique, you'll just get better by osmosis.
Watch TV and become a pro tennis player!!
I'd love to put a 2.0 with a 5.0 and magically see the 2.0 start serving 120mph

Incidentally, Most coaches can not even teach tennis grip in real life.
They barely understand the bevel system.
They just say stupid **** like "shake hands with the racket" or "hold it like a hammer" or "frying pan".
Totally useless advice since any of these can be done 5 different ways.
It is literally easier to learn how to build an entire house from scratch from YouTube.

 

[tennis_balla]

Majority of club players don't train, they just play social tennis and don't work on their games. If they do by chance work on their games they do it improperly. That's why they stay at the same level.

 

[movdqa]

> Surely you can not be this stupid.

> Shower drains are for amateurs.
> I've learned to rebuild an entire car engine from the internet, books, and YouTube.

Well, call me an amateur than.

But do me a favor and try to build Mozilla Firefox. Or build your own operating system.

> Any idiot can unclog his shower drain by watching a video.

Perhaps. But we didn't have these resources thirty years ago. We called a friend that knew how to do it or we called a plumber and paid through the nose.

> Info is everywhere, but knowing you need it is a whole different issue.
> Do you understand the difference?

Could you teach yourself to do vector optimization?

> Your shower was clogged, so it was clear you had a problem needing solving.
> That is the easiest part. Doing it is a mere footnote.

See above.

> The thing you don't understand is that a person WON'T EVEN KNOW HIS GRIP IS WRONG.
> When someone is not using Conti for serve or volley or backhand or overheads,
> merely getting your ass kicked by a 5.0 won't magically reveal this to him.
> Why would it. I did it for 30 years. Why on earth would I think my grip is wrong?
> Why hell would I get a book to find out about grips? I am already holding the racket!!! DUH.

I really wanted to get better at investing and trading many years ago so I subscribed to a service where I learned how to do it. I still subscribe to a service that does this today. It's about $750 a year though I don't really learn any more TA these days. I subscribe for the market analysis, some picks and the community. There are some things that I'd rather outsource. I think that I spend a few thousand a year on financial tools and analysis as it helps my trading and it's certainly worth it.

If you absolutely love something, you can spend a huge amount of time, effort and money to learn about it and even become an expert at it. Going for 30 years without reading a bunch of tennis books or otherwise educating yourself doesn't seem like absolutely loving tennis.

> For example, maybe I am walking incorrectly. Maybe there is a better way to walk, and it's all over YouTube. Of course, any
> idiot can watch YouTube and learn to walk correctly.

What would you have done in 1700, 1800, 1900 or even 1980? Some of us helped to build the internet so perhaps we have a little better perspective.

> And we are not even talking about reading or videos, we are talking about the magic shortcut of "Just play with 5.0 and you'll get better", remember?
> No need to learn technique, you'll just get better by osmosis.
> Watch TV and become a pro tennis player!!
> I'd love to put a 2.0 with a 5.0 and magically see the 2.0 start serving 120mph

Strawman.

I play better just by playing against different styles, even with people at lower levels. Would I get better playing with 5.0s? Of course.

I hit with a 3.5 a while ago and he's been bugging me for two years to go out and hit with him again. He's a pusher and I just hit the ball to where he could get it, sometimes with moderate effort. It's a good workout for me in terms of hitting a lot of slow, high and deep balls but I already get some practice with that regularly. Why does he ask to hit with me a lot? He knows his game will get better. He also asks for tips though I can't say that he follows any of them. I did explain the difference in grips to him one time.

> Incidentally, Most coaches can not even teach tennis grip in real life.
> They barely understand the bevel system.
> They just say stupid **** like "shake hands with the racket" or "hold it like a hammer" or "frying pan".
> Totally useless advice since any of these can be done 5 different ways.
> It is literally easier to learn how to build an entire house from scratch from YouTube.

There are tennis teachers that know their stuff, know how to teach and can take an absolute beginner to hitting a number of strokes reasonably well in a month.

And there are tennis coaches that are really good working with higher level players that don't take lower level players.

If you have the time, money, aptitude, motivation and devotion, of course.

 

[GuyClinch]

I play better just by playing against different styles, even with people at lower levels. Would I get better playing with 5.0s? Of course.

This. Especially if the 5.0 was TRYING to teach you. That is he was adjusting his game enough so that he challenged but not overwhelmed you.

Honestly its the similiar with any kind of learning.. Let's take Math for example..

Do you NEED a 'math teacher' to learn math? No. Some kids can just read the textbook.

But you might have a tutor who is merely someone who is very good at math. As long as this tutor doesn't just jam the hardest questions down the kids throat it's LIKELY that they can 'teach' that student. Almost anyone good at math could in theory tutor someone not as good. They don't need teaching college or special courses about how to teach math..

Now if that kid likes math and works hard at it - he will end up great at math - even if his tutor was nothing extraordinary.

This isn't to say that there isn't some guru teacher out there that makes math exciting and can get kids who have very little inclination or talent for math to maximize their potential. But it's certainly not needed..

Now getting back to tennis..

Most students don't need a 'guru' to teach them tennis - and in fact most tennis players didn't have a such a guy. They learned through doing, experimenting and mimicking. And lots of practice. And this was all done without high speed video or critical analysis - though not saying that can't help.

But aspiring tennis players could simply experiment and go with what worked. This is why you see strokes that are quirky but have fundamental similiarities - like the Jack Sock forehand for example.

This is why some of the best 'teachers' IMHO mostly focus on trying to get students to 'teach themselves' via play based drills for example learning to hit forehands that clear a certain string height and land in the court etc etc. But do you NEED a guy like Ash to learn to play good tennis - probably not.

It's a mistake to get caught up in this. Most of the reasonably priced tennis pros are going to be 'tutor' types. But that can work.

As for as the forever 3.5s - likely that is fairly close to their ceiling - and they have very little inclination to push beyond that as it gets progressively more difficult.

Let's say your local hack could be at best 4.5 - but it would take hours of 10,000 of simple drills with a willing 5.0 to get there. He isn't going to get there - and he is happy to play 3.5. That's cool.
And from a finance point of view - quite sensible.

 

[graycrait]

Best serve coach I ever had was an OVC player from Macedonia. He spent a couple of hours on a couple of things with me. My serve wasn't bad just not as effortless as I wanted. After cleaning up my efficiency of toss he basically told me to hit 100-150 serves per day for a year and you will find out something. So I did, sometimes 200 serves/day. About the 9 month mark it seemed to all come together: slice out wide and up the T, TS to my 3 spots and flats out wide or up the T. I can kick but not the crazy lazy kick that makes fellow seniors grumble. I'm going to talk to another uni player who has just that sort of kick, not really effective against good 20 yr olds, but if I can add that to my repertoire I'll have even more fun.
I cut the service box into six sections, short and deep. It is really fun to play 3.5-4.5 folks of all ages when you have a serve that can literally bamboozle your opponent even if you can't blow them off the court with 120mph heaters. I'm feeling pretty sure that there is no short cut to a better serve, other than get your fundamentals down and hit a hell of a lot of serves. I'm 62 yrs old, 5'10" 195lbs. I started that project a year and half or so ago.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Best serve coach I ever had was an OVC player from Macedonia. He spent a couple of hours on a couple of things with me. My serve wasn't bad just not as effortless as I wanted. After cleaning up my efficiency of toss he basically told me to hit 100-150 serves per day for a year and you will find out something. So I did, sometimes 200 serves/day. About the 9 month mark it seemed to all come together: slice out wide and up the T, TS to my 3 spots and flats out wide or up the T. I can kick but not the crazy lazy kick that makes fellow seniors grumble. I'm going to talk to another uni player who has just that sort of kick, not really effective against good 20 yr olds, but if I can add that to my repertoire I'll have even more fun.
I cut the service box into six sections, short and deep. It is really fun to play 3.5-4.5 folks of all ages when you have a serve that can literally bamboozle your opponent even if you can't blow them off the court with 120mph heaters. I'm feeling pretty sure that there is no short cut to a better serve, other than get your fundamentals down and hit a hell of a lot of serves. I'm 62 yrs old, 5'10" 195lbs. I started that project a year and half or so ago.

I was all excited about fixing my serve until you started talking about hard work.

 

[rockbox]

I do notice most coaches coach juniors and adults differently. With juniors, they start from the beginning and build up from there. With adults, they tend to just try to put band-aids on stuff. Maybe they think adults don't really care about doing it the right way.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I do notice most coaches coach juniors and adults differently. With juniors, they start from the beginning and build up from there. With adults, they tend to just try to put band-aids on stuff. Maybe they think adults don't really care about doing it the right way.

It's also possible from experience they know that many adults won't want to invest the time to make the change and unlearn the bad habits. Or maybe the lesson is more of a social thing [especially if it's a group lesson] and they're not seriously committed to improvement.

 

[graycrait]

I was all excited about fixing my serve until you started talking about hard work.

I know your comment is tongue in cheek but I cannot emphasize how much fun I have serving now, "effortlessly." I have 40 somethings call me just to hit serve returns. And with the younger 3.0s I can hit effortless slower practice serves all afternoon more than 90% from behind the baseline, not feed serves up in the box.

The best training thing I did I started this summer after borrowing a friends ball machine for a month... I did not like the ball machine so I made a deal with several 3.0's and I hit with them several times per week. My payoff was trying to get good shots into those folks' wheelhouses regardless of where they hit the ball. Oddly enough not only did they get better but my consistency/efficiency, shot placement against better players and creativity improved. And my drop shot has gotten deadly against the over 50 crowd. I turned down a lot of matches this summer in lieu of hitting with lesser skilled friends, but I think the long term payoff for all involved and the sport is worth it. I have plenty of time to hit with the hot shots who "never made a line call they didn't like." Besides group lessons at the uni are in full swing and I get to hit with the collegiate players if I want to be challenged and humbled.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I know your comment is tongue in cheek but I cannot emphasize how much fun I have serving now, "effortlessly." I have 40 somethings call me just to hit serve returns. And with the younger 3.0s I can hit effortless slower practice serves all afternoon more than 90% from behind the baseline, not feed serves up in the box.

Yes, I was just funnin' ya. I wholeheartedly agree that your regimen, shoulder-permitting, is a great one. I hit about 100 serves per session once per week. I notice now that it doesn't take me as long to get "into the groove". I'm in the process of retooling my serve which has led me to more critically examine all of the things I had been doing wrong before so I have a list of about 5 things to work on which is impossible to do all at once so I have to be patient.

I'm playing tomorrow so you've inspired me to go early and hit 100 serves before the others show up. Thanks!

This situation [wanting the serve but not willing to do the work to obtain it] reminds me of the children's story where none of the animals helped to plow the field, sow the wheat, pick the weeds, water the crop, harvest, or bake but when the bread came out, everyone wanted some.

 

[graycrait]

I have found that if I am going to play a match I need at the very least 40-50 serves to warm up, not only for my old shoulders but to get into the groove. Oh sure I can go right out and hit some softballs in but if I want to get the most out of my serve I need a good warmup. That deal where the fellas show up, hit around 10 minutes, hit 8 or ten serves then declare "match on" is not normally part of my game any longer.