Why almost no tennis coaches can actually coach worth a damn.

[RogueFLIP]

I play at the same level as you so some of your other threads regarding technique I can easily relate to.

Regarding coaching and lessons, I usually have a good idea of what each lesson will entail and overall what goals I'd like from a group of lessons. I usually take a block of lessons during the "off season" from USTA and club leagues.

So for example, after the summer USTA, I told my coach the #1 goal was improving my serve as that was the biggest liability during the season. Of course other things sprinkled during lessons as well, but made sure at least a part of the lesson was dedicated to the serve.

Recording my serve and doing some self analysis comparing it to pro's serve coupled with some basic fundamentals off the internet gave me some ideas on what pieces needed work. I'd present ideas to my coach and she'd make necessary adjustments and focus on the important things. And she could give me instant feedback during practice.

A lot of times I'd have ideas for drills and we'd do those drills and she'd give feedback during the drill or she'd come up with similar drills that she did when she was playing D1 college tennis.

But I'd never just take a lesson with a new coach and let them figure what I need to work on. And I'd never take just one lesson.

You've recorded yourself. You've looked at videos of pro's. You should have an idea of what needs work. Communicate with your coach your ideas and what you think and what they think. Perhaps they were looking at some other aspect of your serve that they felt was more detrimental at the moment.

I've played plenty of 4.0's who can hit consistent with pace and/or spin serves when they're standing perpendicular to the net. Sure they're arming the ball and am missing out on free power when not utilizing their hips more efficiently. But they've made it work for them.

Good luck and happy hitting.

P.S. Oh and my serve has improved dramatically and so has my confidence.

 

[movdqa]

I have found that if I am going to play a match I need at the very least 40-50 serves to warm up, not only for my old shoulders but to get into the groove. Oh sure I can go right out and hit some softballs in but if I want to get the most out of my serve I need a good warmup. That deal where the fellas show up, hit around 10 minutes, hit 8 or ten serves then declare "match on" is not normally part of my game any longer.

I usually take between five and ten warmup serves for a match as it's the one thing that's been most consistent over the decades. I do go through a routine of serve-specific stretching and shadow swings before the warmups.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I have found that if I am going to play a match I need at the very least 40-50 serves to warm up, not only for my old shoulders but to get into the groove. Oh sure I can go right out and hit some softballs in but if I want to get the most out of my serve I need a good warmup. That deal where the fellas show up, hit around 10 minutes, hit 8 or ten serves then declare "match on" is not normally part of my game any longer.

check out the following vid for server warm-up routine:

One drill, aiming for the back fence, is something I actually did in volleyball: instead of going straight to hitting a few feet from the net and trying to hit down, I would hit several from the 3m area and aim for the back line. Much easier on the shoulder, particularly the labrum.

 

[movdqa]

The shadow swinging with two racquets is interesting - looks like a good warmup going with extra weight.

Of course my racquets are so heavy that it may feel like two racquets already.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The shadow swinging with two racquets is interesting - looks like a good warmup going with extra weight.

Of course my racquets are so heavy that it may feel like two racquets already.

It's what baseball players do in the on-deck circle, right? Or maybe they don't do that anymore and just use the donut.

 

[PittsburghDad]

It's what baseball players do in the on-deck circle, right? Or maybe they don't do that anymore and just use the donut.

More and more don't use the donut anymore. It's slowly going away. Studies have shown that you don't swing faster after using it.

 

[graycrait]

I usually take between five and ten warmup serves for a match as it's the one thing that's been most consistent over the decades. I do go through a routine of serve-specific stretching and shadow swings before the warmups.

I take a "rubber band" to the courts and hook it to the fence and do some warmups before I start hitting.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I take a "rubber band" to the courts and hook it to the fence and do some warmups before I start hitting.

I do that also but it doesn't stress my shoulder quite like serving does.

 

[graycrait]

One drill, aiming for the back fence, is something I actually did in volleyball: instead of going straight to hitting a few feet from the net and trying to hit down, I would hit several from the 3m area and aim for the back line. Much easier on the shoulder, particularly the labrum.

In a land far away and long ago I was a Tasmanian Devil on the volleyball court, hampered only by a lack of height and inability to jump like Karch Kiraly. But I liked serving, defending and setting.

Funny how many facets of various sports translate to tennis and vice versa. Balance, focus and footwork.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

In a land far away and long ago I was a Tasmanian Devil on the volleyball court, hampered only by a lack of height and inability to jump like Karch Kiraly. But I liked serving, defending and setting.

Funny how many facets of various sports translate to tennis and vice versa. Balance, focus and footwork.

Too bad the Libero position hadn't been invented yet; that would have so been my cup of tea.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Most students don't need a 'guru' to teach them tennis - and in fact most tennis players didn't have a such a guy. They learned through doing, experimenting and mimicking. And lots of practice. And this was all done without high speed video or critical analysis - though not saying that can't help.

I'm going to disagree with this. I played for 30 years and never got better.
Sure, as a kid, I experimented, tried slicing, tried hitting the frying pan serve as hard as I could, and then learned to dink the serve instead.
I also learned topspin. In 30 years, I never learned Contri grip. I never learned how to volley. I never learned anything but hitting forehand and backhand.
Notice my screen name for when I returned to playing. I said I would only play if we kept score, so I wold be forced to learn the entire game, not just baseline hitting.
Most people who play tennis don't even keep score. They just hit. People who pay $100/hr to play indoor matches must comprise .0001% of tennis players.

But anyway, yea, you can hack and experiment your way to a 3.5, but not much more than that.
You can see a 4.5 swing a mile away. EVERYTHING about their entire presence is on a different plane than a self-taught hacker.
I am a self-taught 3.5 hacker. I look nothing like a trained D1 fluid motion.
Sorry, but you don't experiment your way to a D1 mechanics.
There is a reason people spend $80,000 a year on their kids tennis coaching.
D1 skills are not free, and can't be found by meditation.

You can not teach yourself tennis beyond a 3.5 or 4.0 pusher.
Someone who has the right movement, you know it when you see it, and it's NEVER EVER self-taught.
It's more like a 6-figure investment by the parents.

he basically told me to hit 100-150 serves per day for a year and you will find out something. So I did, sometimes 200 serves/day. About the 9 month mark it seemed to all come together:

The major flaw in this is the inability to self-assess and get better.
Just doing the same thing over and over makes you get really good at doing it wrong.
People play for 30 years, and never get a bit better.

You saw my serve videos?
I could do that same garbage serve for 100's of years and never ever get any better.

You don't get better without DELIBERATE practice.
Practice is meaningless unless it's being directed.
It's even harmful, if you're making bad technique permanent.

This is why I don't even want to play any kind of match anymore.
I just want to take feed lessons for a few years and learn the right way
Playing matches before that is a complete waste of time, and just reinforces my ****ty 3.5 play.

The best training thing I did I started this summer after borrowing a friends ball machine for a month... I did not like the ball machine so I made a deal with several 3.0's and I hit with them several times per week. My payoff was trying to get good shots into those folks' wheelhouses regardless of where they hit the ball. Oddly enough not only did they get better but my consistency/efficiency, shot placement against better players and creativity improved. And my drop shot has gotten deadly against the over 50 crowd. I turned down a lot of matches this summer in lieu of hitting with lesser skilled friends, but I think the long term payoff for all involved and the sport is worth it. I have plenty of time to hit with the hot shots who "never made a line call they didn't like." Besides group lessons at the uni are in full swing and I get to hit with the collegiate players if I want to be challenged and humbled.

This is EXACTLY my mindset.
I have no interest in playing sets anymore.
For 2017, I am only interested in finding practice partners, and make permanent some of these things my 2016 coaches have pointed out that are totally unnatural (turn sideways, bend legs, high follow through, hit ball in front of you, etc)
If no one wants to do that, I will just paying a hitting feed coach from CL.

I have found that if I am going to play a match I need at the very least 40-50 serves to warm up, not only for my old shoulders but to get into the groove. Oh sure I can go right out and hit some softballs in but if I want to get the most out of my serve I need a good warmup. That deal where the fellas show up, hit around 10 minutes, hit 8 or ten serves then declare "match on" is not normally part of my game any longer.

I 100% agree with this, but how do you handle the logistics?
Do you bring your own hopper to the match? Do people laugh at you?
Court time is $100/hr. Do you book the court for the 1/2 hour slot before your match?
What if there is no court avail, since there are other matches?

 

[movdqa]

> Court time is $100/hr. Do you book the court for the 1/2 hour slot before your match?

Court time costs vary widely. In some places it's free.

When I want to practice my serve, I take two cans to the courts at 5:30 AM and practice away. There are no court charges at my club if you walk onto empty courts and there aren't a lot of people playing at 5:30 AM.

 

[graycrait]

I bring my own hopper and no one laughs, not even the D1 kids I sometimes get to hit with. I think they are amused that I still work at it. A young guy from Lithuania and I won the local Pro Am this past summer against a recent SEC player and partner, a friend of mine. Court time where I live is free. I can generally find a free outdoor court unless league or college matches are going on. Indoor courts cost 125.00/yr membership, 20.00/hr court time. I live in no-where Tennessee. Tennis is an afterthought here. I don't agree, you can get better. Problem is better in relation to what? My personal goal is to be able to have a nice hit with anyone who swings a racket. However, what many forget that it isn't just racket skills. I can't count the number of times I have hit what is in my mind a clear winner against a D1 kid only to see them run it down and then see the ball whiz by me for a winner.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

So when you release the ball, is it still under your palm? That would seem to be an awkward way to toss: it would be too easy to impart spin on the ball.

Do you find it easier to achieve minimal spin this way?

Not under the palm, rather, there is NOTHING underneath the ball. The fingers are on the sides of the ball. Somewhat similar to how you would hold a coin you wanna flip for the toss. Funny, it seems so simple to me in hindsight but I have struggled with this for so long. Here's the video which helped a lot. I have already reduced the no. of times I have to abort the toss and repeat by about 90% or so and it's only been a week since I saw this video. When I get the height and position perfectly right, I am also able to jump up for the serve which I found very difficult to do without losing balance earlier. I will address this in more detail further below since you have asked a relevant question about it.

Let me back up: is spin a problem or is it more location

Earlier, both used to be a problem. The ball would spin and also go in wildly different directions so I would have to look for it and try to aim for it with the racquet as if I was swatting a fly, ha ha. It was much worse than Ivanovic's ball toss, basically. Too far into the court, too far to the right, behind, everything. Power Player had suggested tossing from the back of the palm. It worked for a while but I found it difficult to get the ball into the court or high enough with this action so it put a ceiling on how much I could attack with my serve.

I don't think about my toss that much since I believe there are many other things that are more broken with my serve relative to my toss.

That's true so far as the toss is not wildly unpredictable. Some, in fact most people, seem to do this without even having to do the knee bend, trophy position, etc. But I had to learn how to toss the ball correctly so that I could focus purely on striking the ball well on serve.

I've been taught to think of the toss as "lifting" the ball and as such, you want to minimize joint movement [fingers, wrist, elbow, & shoulder]. My analogy is volleyball: beginners pass with their arms: they swing a lot, oftentimes hitting the ball backwards. Advanced players pass with their legs: they bend their legs as the ball is approaching, make a flat surface with their arms, and push upwards with their legs; minimal swing of the arms. The result is a much more stable, less variable pass.

Never played volleyball. But basically, yes, the idea is to use the lower body, really. And this is where my coach came in. He got me to bend my knees and make an angle with my shoulders. Once I did that, it was much easier to both get the desired toss and also enough extension on the racquet. So...from your post, it seems that maybe the reason my coach couldn't fix my toss is simply because very few players even at the rec level have such terrible problems with it.

Hey, what's wrong with an E FH?

Nothing wrong per se but if you want to rally from the baseline, the classic E FH may not work so well against the kind of topspin I have seen advanced guys (or even my coach) produce. An Eastern grip per se is fine. Even I just use a modified Eastern. But the super relaxed, elegant E FH motion that I was taught (don't think my replication of it was elegant in any sense of the word!) when I started playing tennis doesn't produce enough spin to handle topspin bombs. I need lots of RHS and also to pull the racquet across to keep the ball in. My coach (a different one at the time) did teach me how to brush. But I then put it together with a different takeback and stopped taking the racquet up and over and instead pulled it across so that it would wrap my shoulder from behind at the end of the follow through. Of course, I gather you are an all court player so you may not have much use for a heavy FH shot. If anything, the E FH is better for approach shots off short and low balls. I prefer to drive through such balls rather than make all the effort to lift them up with topspin...and once I go for the long stroke, I have to also go cross court rather than DTL. But if I drive through, I can just go DTL and low making it harder for the opponent to get to it.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Incidentally, Most coaches can not even teach tennis grip in real life.
They barely understand the bevel system.
They just say stupid **** like "shake hands with the racket" or "hold it like a hammer" or "frying pan".
Totally useless advice since any of these can be done 5 different ways.
It is literally easier to learn how to build an entire house from scratch from YouTube.

It's not stupid. It's a practical use of visualisation which works better for most students. Most students can remember how to hold the racquet for which shot based on how it FEELS rather than which bevel the back of their index finger is on. I will not discount your experience but given you played in a time when conti grip was actually more popular than it is now, I find it hard to believe nobody ever told you that you are holding the racquet wrong for volleys. Moving on, did you never just experiment with different grips? Because you almost cannot ever make a volley from below the net with a topspin grip. I mean, you can if you play with an APD but I doubt it would work with the old racquets. There has to be an impulse from the student to self-learn too. Coaching does not mean everything is spoonfed to the student. There is more of it initially when the player has no clue how to just get the ball over the net. Afterwards, a curious student will observe good players and try to imitate them. My topspin backhand isn't amazing by any stretch but one guy who had a weak double hander and was captivated by the one hander liked my form and started asking me to shadow swing in slo mo so he could copy it. If you have merely played with different players over the years, you would have learnt a lot from them. I know some people unfortunately can be grouchy/un-cooperative, call it what you will. My uncle who lives in USA (I am not from there) thinks it's a waste of time for him to help weak players and pushes them, including his own daughter, to take up coaching instead. He didn't even play with me when I came over. This was couple of years back when I was new but I am thinking I would need to upload a high quality vid in 4k to be granted admission to play with him, lol. But not everyone is like that, surely. People I don't know at all outside of tennis have volunteered to help me with this or that shot.

There have been a couple of other people in this section of the forum insisting they need to be explained in precise terminology what needs to be done for them to be able to do it. So I won't judge you and maybe you are just wired differently so you are more comfortable with everything being broken down in detail for you. But the game of tennis is itself played a lot on feel as one gets better and better. There's no time to think which shot to play when, you just follow the ball and let it or rather your position vis a vis the ball decide what shot you must play. So you have to connect with the game and wean yourself off precise tutorials at some point. Once a guy who had played state-level cricket in college joined our group and in just two weeks of lessons he was hitting damn good forehands and backhands. So it can be done. As a sportsman, his intuitive connection with the game was much stronger than the rest of us hacks so it took him no time to catch up with us, in fact start beating us.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

^^ You know what "volleys" are to someone who has never taken lessons?
Either you slam the meatball, which can be done with any grip on the planet,
or you basically take a groundstroke while at the net. I used forehand grip for every stroke in the game,
as did every single person on my tennis team who did not take private lessons.
So, yea, Conti being popular is totally meaningless if no one actually shows you.
This is how people experiment and intuitively "learn" tennis.
They use the semi-W grip for every single stroke in the game until they reach middle age and realize there is more.
I am not the exception, I am the rule.
The exception are the .0001% of tennis nerds who actually post on a tennis forum, or watch tennis Youtube videos.
99.999% of tennis players have no idea there are tennis lessons on the interwebz.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

> Court time is $100/hr. Do you book the court for the 1/2 hour slot before your match?
Court time costs vary widely. In some places it's free.
When I want to practice my serve, I take two cans to the courts at 5:30 AM and practice away. There are no court charges at my club if you walk onto empty courts and there aren't a lot of people playing at 5:30 AM.

Sorry, we are talking about warming up before a match, not at 5am
You must have missed that part.

I find it hard to believe nobody ever told you that you are holding the racquet wrong for volleys.

Why would they? DUH.
Do you notice the grip being used from across the tennis court?
Oh, and guess who a high school 2.0 plays against?
Other kids who have no idea what Conti grip is.
Why in F's sake would anyone ever hold a racket BACKWARDS? (conti)
You can't be serious.


Moving on, did you never just experiment with different grips? Because you almost cannot ever make a volley from below the net with a topspin grip.

Why would I? I am already holding the racket. DUH!
Why would I even think there is a problem? You hold the racket.
There, is is not on the end of your arm. Period.

I made thousands of volleys using my forehand grip at the net.
You just swing like its a groundstroke, but at the net.
When playing other 2.0s in high school, it's simple.
It's actually EASIER than from the baseline. DUH
30 years later, why the **** would you be doing anything else?
Surely, you can't be this clueless.

Afterwards, a curious student will observe good players and try to imitate them.

It's amazing at just how clueless you are.
On what planet do you think a 2.0 who has never taken a lesson will ever be on the same court as a 5.0?

But the game of tennis is itself played a lot on feel as one gets better and better.

Sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about.
People play at the same level for DECADES.
Wake up, it's absurd at how detached from reality some posters are.
There is a reason like 3% of all tennis players on the entire planet ever get to 4.5
Think about it. You don't just figure this **** out. IMG charges $80,000 a year.

I could have played for 60,000 years and it would NEVER OCCUR to me to hold the freaking racket BACKWARDS, so the ball just pops up to the ceiling.
You'd almost have to be mentally ******** to spontaneously try a Conti grip.
Seriously.

Try a Conti grip with your FH, and let me know how that goes.
Now, tell me, why in ****'s sake you would EVER hold the racket like that under ANY circumstance?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

holding the racquet wrong for volleys.

Why would they? DUH.
Do you notice the grip being used from across the tennis court?
Oh, and guess who a high school 2.0 plays against?
Other kids who have no idea what Conti grip is.
Why in F's sake would anyone ever hold a racket BACKWARDS? (conti)
You can't be serious.

Not the exact grip, but yes the difference between a racquet held the right and the wrong way for a volley is not very difficult to tell at all. As for holding a racquet, um, backwards, as you call it, well, just to get a different outcome? It's obvious though that you are completely clueless about feel. So moving on...

I made thousands of volleys using my forehand grip at the net.
You just swing like its a groundstroke, but at the net.

Brilliant! Should I be suitably impressed?

When playing other 2.0s in high school, it's simple.
It's actually EASIER than from the baseline. DUH
30 years later, why the **** would you be doing anything else?
Surely, you can't be this clueless.

You are very right there. Someone who has not mentally progressed out of high school even 30 years later indeed would have no inclination to do things differently.

It's amazing at just how clueless you are.
On what planet do you think a 2.0 who has never taken a lesson will ever be on the same court as a 5.0?

You don't need to play such a high level player for the level of improvement (modest) that we're talking about. You do need to connect to your senses, which I can see is a tall order for you.

Sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about.
People play at the same level for DECADES.

Some people do, yes. I am already much better than I was when I picked up the game about 2 1/2 years ago.

Wake up, it's absurd at how detached from reality some posters are.
There is a reason like 3% of all tennis players on the entire planet ever get to 4.5
Think about it. You don't just figure this **** out. IMG charges $80,000 a year.

Actually, no, I am not detached from the 'reality' that you're evidently so proud to be a part of. I know a couple or more people who are pretty similar to you. They started playing along side me and circa today, still play the exact same way as they did back then. And they are the ones who complain maximum about the quality of coaching. And they try to tell me I must be gifted when I was zero in sports as a school kid.

I guess as one grows older, there's no mirror big enough to look into or something like that?

I could have played for 60,000 years and it would NEVER OCCUR to me to hold the freaking racket BACKWARDS, so the ball just pops up to the ceiling.

Still struggling to understand why that should be.

You'd almost have to be mentally ******** to spontaneously try a Conti grip.
Seriously.

Yes, I see that in the TPS universe (a universe within and simultaneously without the TT universe) it is ******** to have an iota of curiosity. I tried different backhand grips until I settled on the one that works for me. And no coach told me to go for a modified Eastern for the forehand. I just tried it, because I am ******** unlike you, poor me.

Try a Conti grip with your FH, and let me know how that goes.

Are you aware that the conti grip was THE grip for practically all shots at one point of time? No, I guess not, because you aren't ******** enough to.

Now, tell me, why in ****'s sake you would EVER hold the racket like that under ANY circumstance?

Well, why the **** is it such a gravity defying grip as you make it out to be? Can you post a photo of yourself holding what you call a conti grip so one can understand why you think it's so ********?

 

[Shroud]

Sorry, we are talking about warming up before a match, not at 5am
You must have missed that part.

I find it hard to believe nobody ever told you that you are holding the racquet wrong for volleys.

Why would they? DUH.
Do you notice the grip being used from across the tennis court?
Oh, and guess who a high school 2.0 plays against?
Other kids who have no idea what Conti grip is.
Why in F's sake would anyone ever hold a racket BACKWARDS? (conti)
You can't be serious.


Moving on, did you never just experiment with different grips? Because you almost cannot ever make a volley from below the net with a topspin grip.

Why would I? I am already holding the racket. DUH!
Why would I even think there is a problem? You hold the racket.
There, is is not on the end of your arm. Period.

I made thousands of volleys using my forehand grip at the net.
You just swing like its a groundstroke, but at the net.
When playing other 2.0s in high school, it's simple.
It's actually EASIER than from the baseline. DUH
30 years later, why the **** would you be doing anything else?
Surely, you can't be this clueless.

Afterwards, a curious student will observe good players and try to imitate them.

It's amazing at just how clueless you are.
On what planet do you think a 2.0 who has never taken a lesson will ever be on the same court as a 5.0?

But the game of tennis is itself played a lot on feel as one gets better and better.

Sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about.
People play at the same level for DECADES.
Wake up, it's absurd at how detached from reality some posters are.
There is a reason like 3% of all tennis players on the entire planet ever get to 4.5
Think about it. You don't just figure this **** out. IMG charges $80,000 a year.

I could have played for 60,000 years and it would NEVER OCCUR to me to hold the freaking racket BACKWARDS, so the ball just pops up to the ceiling.
You'd almost have to be mentally ******** to spontaneously try a Conti grip.
Seriously.

Try a Conti grip with your FH, and let me know how that goes.
Now, tell me, why in ****'s sake you would EVER hold the racket like that under ANY circumstance?

Did you watch tennis in those 30 years? Read any articles, subscribe to Tennis magazine?? You had the best volleyers of all time playing and tons of articles and instruction on continental grips. Heck, i did an education speech in speech class on how to hit a forehand and researching the grips was a big part of that. This was 1990 and i had to find the info somewhere.

Anyhow the more you type the more i understand why none of the coaches would take the time to point out the feet. If you are fighting this hard on the no argument serve grip, just imagine how you would behave about proper feet placement...which imho has everything to do with the grip in the 1st place!!!

Its a guess but i bet some people take lessons to validate their lame strokes and not to actually improve...

 

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

I have seen this kind of thread here before and it just baffles me.

Is there no accreditation process to be able to call yourself a tennis coach in the US?

Here in Australia, you just can't go out and coach without doing a proper course and meeting the required standards.

As a rule, the minimum playing level is ITN 5 to even do the course (that's about 4.0 - 4.5 NTRP)

I just don't get it..

 

[heninfan99]

You don't become a great musician by going to concerts. Typical American shortcut mindset that has zero grasp on how to learn a new skill.
I played against better players for years. Guess what, I had a dink 2nd serve the entire time. I didn't magically develop a topspin kick serve.

That analogy is not right. Playing with better musicians will help a hungry learner learn but I get your point. Going to a concert is more like watching a pro match.

Here's the thing, in language learning they have graded readers for a reason. You want to read stuff that is just a little difficult for you as you progress. If you try to read something with too many unknown words it will be a tough challenge to get through and slow the learner down. So a 3.5 should play with a 4.0. Playing a 5.5 would be useless unless you pay them and they hold back for you and play to just a little over your level.

Also know that the club coach with a mortgage only cares about juniors, well, not so much juniors as much as the the juniors' parents. If they can get little Becky to 1st singles on her high school team or even #1 in the area rich Mom's will bring them lots of steady cash.

Wayward male adults are not going to pay their mortgage so they get piled into over-crowded drill & plays and are not given 100% in lessons.

I don't doubt you had a bad lesson so use the internet and video yourself to check your progress.

 

[kramer woodie]

I am appalled by this thread. Ya, blame the coach when failing, makes total sense!!!

See it every day. Student, "but that conti grip feels weird" and sure enough after 2 serves goes back to forehand grip. Why? It feels comfortable,
it's the way they have always done it. It hurts to use conti grip, it's hard to control. Ask them, "do you know how to throw a baseball"? They say, absolutely!!! Well I gotta tell ya, it is laughable, they throw just like a young girl, total waiter's tray type throw, No Pronation, No Velocity, No Accuracy, No Consistency. As a matter of fact had a 185 pounds teenager boy today, said he could throw a baseball. He could, just like a 7 year old girl, also could
not catch the ball either, what a joke. Did I stop trying to help him? NO!!

Truth is some students won't totally commit to learning, that's too much effort, bound and determined to do whatever THEIR WAY. See it "Every Day".
Hear the excuses every day. See the defiance to learn ever day. See the stubbornness every day. See the failure every day. Breaks my heart, but I
stick with showing the right way and some have a breakthrough and get it right and are thrilled. And I am thrilled right along with them when they
have that breakthrough and success. They deserved it, they didn't give up, they Earned It!!!

Aloha

P.S. Also, I teach for free, no money changes hands, but sure enjoy the cookies and sweets I receive throughout the year from grateful kids and
parents. Where does the most reward come from, that look of pure pleasure a kid (anyone 6 to 80 years old---I got 35 of them) gets on their face
when they get it right and understand why it works. And wants to learn more and get better!

 

[Disgruntled Worker]

Moral of this thread: almost everyone is full of crap when you dig deep enough into their history. Just enjoy the game and use it as a vehicle towards improved health as well as a means of social interaction. None of us (outside of a few lurking pros) are making a living playing this game. If your job is good, the sex life is good, and your overall existence is good, that's what really matters!

And a tip to young people here: wait to see actual footage of a person hitting before assuming they know what they're talking about. The @sureshs video really opened my eyes as to how clueless and conniving people online can be. A guy that talks like a former ATP pro ultimately not even being able to sustain a 5 shot rally...THAT is the internet in a nutshell.

 

[scotus]

I am appalled by this thread. Ya, blame the coach when failing, makes total sense!!!

See it every day. Student, "but that conti grip feels weird" and sure enough after 2 serves goes back to forehand grip. Why? It feels comfortable,
it's the way they have always done it. It hurts to use conti grip, it's hard to control. Ask them, "do you know how to throw a baseball"? They say, absolutely!!! Well I gotta tell ya, it is laughable, they throw just like a young girl, total waiter's tray type throw, No Pronation, No Velocity, No Accuracy, No Consistency. As a matter of fact had a 185 pounds teenager boy today, said he could throw a baseball. He could, just like a 7 year old girl, also could
not catch the ball either, what a joke. Did I stop trying to help him? NO!!

Truth is some students won't totally commit to learning, that's too much effort, bound and determined to do whatever THEIR WAY. See it "Every Day".
Hear the excuses every day. See the defiance to learn ever day. See the stubbornness every day. See the failure every day. Breaks my heart, but I
stick with showing the right way and some have a breakthrough and get it right and are thrilled. And I am thrilled right along with them when they
have that breakthrough and success. They deserved it, they didn't give up, they Earned It!!!

Aloha

P.S. Also, I teach for free, no money changes hands, but sure enjoy the cookies and sweets I receive throughout the year from grateful kids and
parents. Where does the most reward come from, that look of pure pleasure a kid (anyone 6 to 80 years old---I got 35 of them) gets on their face
when they get it right and understand why it works. And wants to learn more and get better!

You're a good man.

I agree many rec players can be insanely unteachable.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Sure, I watched some tennis. You can not see what grip is being used or learn much of anything from TV.
More importantly, it would not even OCCUR to me that there are various grips being used. Why would it?
You just hold the racket and whack away. That is how tennis is played by kids when unsupervised.
You just play, remember? You just feel it out by intuition. That is the premise I am disagreeing with.

I am not fighting anything. As soon as I was told what the Conti grip was, I started using it. Easy peasy.
Same with anything a coach tells me. However, you don't magically discover this stuff just by watching TV or by osmosis across the court.

You can certainly get better within the constraints of your flawed technique.
I got as good as I was ever going to get. Wall. Ceiling. One can easily be a 3.5 with basic athletic ability. With zero training. Just hit and push.
But, that's not a real tennis player: No footwork, no grip changes, no volleys, frying pan serve, dink 2nd. No concept of strategy whatsoever, just avoid "no man's land" is all the strategy you know. And trying to hit winners. Bare bones baseline kings, just like the pros!!
However, being shown there is such thing as correct form can allow you to progress.
From there, you need 10,000 hours of feed drills for years to make the skills actually stick.

But yea, most coaches have no idea how to teach.
This thread has confirmed for me that it's quality over quantity.
I will use the $60 CL coach as hitting partners over the next year
Bu, to correct and develop proper form, I will double my budget and pay the triple digit hourly fees at a club.

 

[sureshs]

Not under the palm, rather, there is NOTHING underneath the ball. The fingers are on the sides of the ball. Somewhat similar to how you would hold a coin you wanna flip for the toss. Funny, it seems so simple to me in hindsight but I have struggled with this for so long. Here's the video which helped a lot. I have already reduced the no. of times I have to abort the toss and repeat by about 90% or so and it's only been a week since I saw this video. When I get the height and position perfectly right, I am also able to jump up for the serve which I found very difficult to do without losing balance earlier. I will address this in more detail further below since you have asked a relevant question about it.

I have tried it.

1. The ball can still go astray
2. The feel is awkward and takes away the fluidity of the motion
3. A higher toss has release issues with this way of holding the ball

 

[movdqa]

^^ You know what "volleys" are to someone who has never taken lessons?
Either you slam the meatball, which can be done with any grip on the planet,
or you basically take a groundstroke while at the net. I used forehand grip for every stroke in the game,
as did every single person on my tennis team who did not take private lessons.
So, yea, Conti being popular is totally meaningless if no one actually shows you.
This is how people experiment and intuitively "learn" tennis.
They use the semi-W grip for every single stroke in the game until they reach middle age and realize there is more.
I am not the exception, I am the rule.
The exception are the .0001% of tennis nerds who actually post on a tennis forum, or watch tennis Youtube videos.
99.999% of tennis players have no idea there are tennis lessons on the interwebz.

I started out with the Continental grip way back in the 1970s. Nobody taught me the grip; I just used it so that I wouldn't have to change grips for the forehand and backhand. It may have been the heavier and low-powered racquets or that the court surfaces that I played on had lower ball-bounces and more skidding. But I learned about grips reading about them in books from the library so I changed to Eastern Forehand and Backhand but the cool thing was that I could hit with the grips that I had used in the past. Several decades later I switched to the SW forehand. So I have a bunch of different grips that I use in different circumstances, all self-taught.

Volley Samples:

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I have tried it.

1. The ball can still go astray
2. The feel is awkward and takes away the fluidity of the motion
3. A higher toss has release issues with this way of holding the ball

Point by point:

1. Well, yes, if the tossing arm moves too fast. I find that as long as I let it go up real slow, there is no problem. Also, that it has to go along with bending the knees and making an angle with the shoulders. If it's just the tossing arm going up with nothing else happening in the body, there may be problems irrespective of how one holds the ball. I say may because some people seem to do it just fine without knee bend, nothing.

2. Maybe, but from my perspective I will take anything that stabilises the toss. Besides, I remember serving with a conti grip felt awkward too the first time around. Any new wrinkle in tennis feels awkward until, with practice, the muscles get used to it. As of today, my default way of holding the ball is already how it was shown in that video which I posted. It wasn't so on day 1, where my fingers tended to revert to what they were used to. Takes time.

3. This is what I also feel intuitively but since I am not looking for a very high toss, it's fine by me. I want it just high enough that I can fully extend the racquet and that seems to be happening with this toss style, so I'll take it.

 

[movdqa]

> Sorry, we are talking about warming up before a match, not at 5am
> You must have missed that part.

No, I didn't. That practice session at 5 AM will carry over to a later match.

But if someone did want to book court time to practice before a match, it could cost $6 for 30 minutes. That's pretty affordable if you really want to improve.

> I find it hard to believe nobody ever told you that you are holding the racquet wrong for volleys.

Did I write this? I'd appreciate it if you did proper attributions.

> Why would they? DUH.
> Do you notice the grip being used from across the tennis court?
> Oh, and guess who a high school 2.0 plays against?
> Other kids who have no idea what Conti grip is.
> Why in F's sake would anyone ever hold a racket BACKWARDS? (conti)
> You can't be serious.

I have guys that chat about their tennis in the locker room or gym and ask for advice and I usually ask them about their grip because it dictates how you play. Some people are good at asking for advice and some think that they don't ever need to ask for directions.

>> Moving on, did you never just experiment with different grips? Because you almost cannot ever make a volley from below the net with a topspin grip.

> Why would I? I am already holding the racket. DUH!
> Why would I even think there is a problem? You hold the racket.
> There, is is not on the end of your arm. Period.

Do you understand the concept of efficiency?

> I made thousands of volleys using my forehand grip at the net.
> You just swing like its a groundstroke, but at the net.
> When playing other 2.0s in high school, it's simple.
> It's actually EASIER than from the baseline. DUH
> 30 years later, why the **** would you be doing anything else?
> Surely, you can't be this clueless.

Because you want to improve. I switched from an Eastern Forehand to a Semi-western in my 40s. There were a lot of benefits to doing this that I read about here and just made the commitment to make the change because I wanted to improve.

>> Afterwards, a curious student will observe good players and try to imitate them.

> It's amazing at just how clueless you are.
> On what planet do you think a 2.0 who has never taken a lesson will ever be on the same court as a 5.0?

Parents come to me to ask about what they should do to get their kids on the tennis team. I provide a high-level view of tennis in a bunch of different areas and then recommend clubs for their kids to take lessons at and clubs to avoid. I play with several current and former tennis coaches and they tell me what it is like on their high-school teams and the limitations on what they can do because the vast majority are there to get the college checkoff for high-school sports. The good players, who may or may not have had lessons, have the high-level of interest to self-improve. And I see it because they sometimes bring these players to me to hit with.

If you are a 2.0 and want to improve badly enough, then you'll likely take lessons. Or you could do what I did - spend a huge amount of time hitting balls, chatting with people and asking for advice.

>> But the game of tennis is itself played a lot on feel as one gets better and better.

> Sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about.
> People play at the same level for DECADES.
> Wake up, it's absurd at how detached from reality some posters are.
> There is a reason like 3% of all tennis players on the entire planet ever get to 4.5
> Think about it. You don't just figure this **** out. IMG charges $80,000 a year.

Some people don't take college courses on a regular bases even after they get advanced degrees. But many do. Life can crowd out tennis so, yes, you might not improve for decades while you're raising kids and putting them through college. But you get a lot of time back after raising kids where you can devote more time, money and energy to improving your game.

$80,000 is a lot to some people and not much to others. Tennis is a luxury sport, particularly if you want to do it well.

> I could have played for 60,000 years and it would NEVER OCCUR to me to hold the freaking racket BACKWARDS, so the ball just pops up to the ceiling.
> You'd almost have to be mentally ******** to spontaneously try a Conti grip.
> Seriously.

That was the main grip used for many decades in tennis.

> Try a Conti grip with your FH, and let me know how that goes.
> Now, tell me, why in ****'s sake you would EVER hold the racket like that under ANY circumstance?

Piece of cake. I can hit forehands and backhands with the continental or eastern grips. I can hit forehands with the Semi-Western and I sometimes hit with the Western Grip (usually off high topspin shots). If you started on a Continental, moved to the Eastern, then to the Semi-Western, then you still retain the ability to hit with the stuff that you used to hit with.

I usually use the SemiWestern from behind the baseline and into the court if the ball bounces somewhat high. If the ball is low and I can't scoop it up with topspin, then I'll use an eastern grip to drive the ball or a continental grip to get under it.

What we've seen in the past 15 years are multiple approaches to hitting the balls. Hitting with a 2HBH and a 1HBH slice or hitting 2HBH with 1HBH on volleys. Hitting left-handed for some strokes and right-handed for others or even the ability to hit with either arm with all strokes.

 

[movdqa]

Are you aware that the conti grip was THE grip for practically all shots at one point of time? No, I guess not, because you aren't ******** enough to.

I remember going through a book on the History of Warfare with my son when he was about 7 years old and the hardest part to deal with was context. He didn't see issues with logistics and supply lines because he could go to the store to get anything that he needed and had hot and cold running water, heat and cooling when he wanted and instant communications around the world. Talking about a supply line to deliver food and water to a marching army was a pretty foreign concept to try to get across. Dealing with the weight of armor or equipment was a foreign concept as transportation for us today is so easy.

I have a friend that was a Professor and he related the same problems. Younger folks lack historical context.

A lot of college textbooks go over the background of the subject in the beginning or through the textbook and the intellectually curious student will go through these snippets and maybe look a little deeper into what pioneers and scientists had to deal with in the past. Those are the kids that professors look for to help them with their research. There are too many kids that just want a good grade and will work just hard enough to get it.

 

[movdqa]

I have seen this kind of thread here before and it just baffles me.

Is there no accreditation process to be able to call yourself a tennis coach in the US?

Here in Australia, you just can't go out and coach without doing a proper course and meeting the required standards.

As a rule, the minimum playing level is ITN 5 to even do the course (that's about 4.0 - 4.5 NTRP)

I just don't get it..

It's basically a market here and your average parent can't tell the difference between a good coach and a bad one.

 

[movdqa]

That analogy is not right. Playing with better musicians will help a hungry learner learn but I get your point. Going to a concert is more like watching a pro match.

Here's the thing, in language learning they have graded readers for a reason. You want to read stuff that is just a little difficult for you as you progress. If you try to read something with too many unknown words it will be a tough challenge to get through and slow the learner down. So a 3.5 should play with a 4.0. Playing a 5.5 would be useless unless you pay them and they hold back for you and play to just a little over your level.

Also know that the club coach with a mortgage only cares about juniors, well, not so much juniors as much as the the juniors' parents. If they can get little Becky to 1st singles on her high school team or even #1 in the area rich Mom's will bring them lots of steady cash.

Wayward male adults are not going to pay their mortgage so they get piled into over-crowded drill & plays and are not given 100% in lessons.

I don't doubt you had a bad lesson so use the internet and video yourself to check your progress.

I have a friend that's world-class in music but in composing and sound design. He's also a conductor.

He has a Phd in Fine Arts. Can you imagine going to school for ten years for your professional training? You have to have a lot of dedication, drive and motivation because it's a long, expensive haul to get to where you want to go. I'd guess that he has done a lot of experimentation on his own to get to where he is today. You can listen to some of his music at his site.

https://www.kneuppermusic.com/

 

[meltphace 6]

I'm self taught and consider myself better than 3.5. My vid is in kiteboard's footwork thread in case you're interested.

 

[mad dog1]

Did you watch tennis in those 30 years? Read any articles, subscribe to Tennis magazine?? You had the best volleyers of all time playing and tons of articles and instruction on continental grips. Heck, i did an education speech in speech class on how to hit a forehand and researching the grips was a big part of that. This was 1990 and i had to find the info somewhere.

Anyhow the more you type the more i understand why none of the coaches would take the time to point out the feet. If you are fighting this hard on the no argument serve grip, just imagine how you would behave about proper feet placement...which imho has everything to do with the grip in the 1st place!!!

Its a guess but i bet some people take lessons to validate their lame strokes and not to actually improve...

Look around you. There are tons of people who just don't think or wonder about things in life.

 

[mad dog1]

Sure, I watched some tennis. You can not see what grip is being used or learn much of anything from TV.
More importantly, it would not even OCCUR to me that there are various grips being used. Why would it?
You just hold the racket and whack away. That is how tennis is played by kids when unsupervised.
You just play, remember? You just feel it out by intuition. That is the premise I am disagreeing with.

Inquisitive people would start to wonder why pros are able to hit so much harder but yet still keep the ball in play and start seeking answers to their question. One answer leads to another question and the cycle continues.

 

[Shroud]

Look around you. There are tons of people who just don't think or wonder about things in life.

Thats today. We have our phones to tell us what to think and FB to control us. 30 years ago you had to think and wonder...

Sure mediocracy is always a problem but its easier these days. We even package it make it ubiquitous...

 

[mad dog1]

Thats today. We have our phones to tell us what to think and FB to control us. 30 years ago you had to think and wonder...

Sure mediocracy is always a problem but its easier these days. We even package it make it ubiquitous...

Do you feel the human race has really evolved that much in the past 30 years?

 

[Disgruntled Worker]

I'm self taught and consider myself better than 3.5. My vid is in kiteboard's footwork thread in case you're interested.

Your vid is good except the angle. We the audience can't tell if your balls are good or long. You have better timing than most on these boards. But still not perfect. I wish to God I could get a hitting partner so I can upload some footage. I feel like such a doosh criticizing without offering proof of my own abilities (or lack thereof)

 

[meltphace 6]

Your vid is good except the angle. We the audience can't tell if your balls are good or long. You have better timing than most on these boards. But still not perfect. I wish to God I could get a hitting partner so I can upload some footage. I feel like such a doosh criticizing without offering proof of my own abilities (or lack thereof)

It's far from perfect (timing on fh is often terrible). We play points - one ball was long.

 

[Disgruntled Worker]

It's far from perfect (timing on fh is often terrible). We play points - one ball was long.

You have a good physique and good fundamentals. Considering your age you have nothing to be ashamed of. One guy I play with is 48 and built like Georges St. Pierre. Dude is shredded! You're not too far off from that.

 

[Shroud]

Do you feel the human race has really evolved that much in the past 30 years?

Going to say NO because my point was really devolution but some how it got turned into evolution

 

[movdqa]

Your vid is good except the angle. We the audience can't tell if your balls are good or long. You have better timing than most on these boards. But still not perfect. I wish to God I could get a hitting partner so I can upload some footage. I feel like such a doosh criticizing without offering proof of my own abilities (or lack thereof)

This guy would kill the 3.5s that I know. That forehand where he landed with his right foot at an angle looks like a moderately advanced move. Federer does it all the time - I don't think that that's something that you just develop without seeing it somewhere.

 

[WildVolley]

I have seen this kind of thread here before and it just baffles me.

Is there no accreditation process to be able to call yourself a tennis coach in the US?

Here in Australia, you just can't go out and coach without doing a proper course and meeting the required standards.

As a rule, the minimum playing level is ITN 5 to even do the course (that's about 4.0 - 4.5 NTRP)

There is no law saying you have to be accredited to call yourself a coach in the United States, but there are several accrediting agencies.

It is up to the student to choose whether or not he or she wants an accredited coach. That's the way it should be in my opinion.

Why? Because the best way to teach tennis is still in dispute and having the government select an accrediting agency as mandatory does nothing to settle the question of the best way to teach or the best technique. Competition between coaches and accrediting agencies leads to a more dynamic advancement in the sport instead of cranking out cookie cutter coaches based on debatable and sometimes outdated information.

I've had a player come to me (I'm not currently accredited to teach tennis) for lessons because his accredited coach wouldn't show him how to hit forehands with a SW grip. I definitely will not fault the accrediting body for this because I doubt the accrediting body has a thing against the SW grip.

The OP should speak with the coaches before taking a lesson. In my part of Southern California there are a lot of coaches who can teach standard serve technique if you ask them.

 

[Disgruntled Worker]

It's far from perfect (timing on fh is often terrible). We play points - one ball was long.

Next time you hit, I want you to hold your follow through for 3 seconds. Initially it will feel weird. But after a few minutes your timing is gonna improve. Also, try not to focus on the horizontal plane encompassing the court but the vertical plane OVER the net. Aim for a spot 3 feet above the net instead of your opponent's court.

Bjorn Borg and Guillermo Vilas would routinely hit 6-7 feet over the net. They had so much spin on the ball that guys like Connors and McEnroe couldn't just tee off with their flat strokes. They focused on spin and consistency rather than put-away power. If you put a little more margin on your shot and focus on that spin, you will eventually hit a vicious groundstroke.

 

[meltphace 6]

Next time you hit, I want you to hold your follow through for 3 seconds. Initially it will feel weird. But after a few minutes your timing is gonna improve. Also, try not to focus on the horizontal plane encompassing the court but the vertical plane OVER the net. Aim for a spot 3 feet above the net instead of your opponent's court.

Bjorn Borg and Guillermo Vilas would routinely hit 6-7 feet over the net. They had so much spin on the ball that guys like Connors and McEnroe couldn't just tee off with their flat strokes. They focused on spin and consistency rather than put-away power. If you put a little more margin on your shot and focus on that spin, you will eventually hit a vicious groundstroke.

I play rather high trajectory in the summer (clay) season and actually lost my fh drive in a kind of way. When the video was taken temperature was about 1°C and ball bounce is just too low.

I use the "hold follow through" occasionaly re balance and weight transfer with players I coach but haven't used it when it comes to timing. How many repetitions do you suggest?
My crappy eyesight (astigmatism) in combination with a heavy racquet (332 g unstrung) make things difficult.
Thanks for your input - I'll do the follow through drill.
Sry for thread derailment.

 

[mad dog1]

Going to say NO because my point was really devolution but some how it got turned into evolution

I was referring to tennis. Rec players with their wood and aluminum racquets in the 70s and 80s don't look any better than today's rec players with the latest graphite technology.

 

[Shroud]

I was referring to tennis. Rec players with their wood and aluminum racquets in the 70s and 80s don't look any better than today's rec players with the latest graphite technology.

Ok. I can go with that i think

 

[movdqa]

I was referring to tennis. Rec players with their wood and aluminum racquets in the 70s and 80s don't look any better than today's rec players with the latest graphite technology.

The rec players with wood racquets survived.

I saw a lot of rec players in the 70s and 80s. If you couldn't manage swinging a heavy racquet with enough force to get the ball over the other side, you gave it up. So you had an evolution of tennis players - the remaining players had to develop better strokes or they left the game. Then the Prince came out and I saw lots more players out there hitting with poor technique and, a little later, arm braces.

The racquets today do a lot more to allow bad technique compared to the wood racquets of old.

I'd guess that the old wood racquet users could adapt to modern technique with work (I did, so how hard could it be?).

It's like giving everyone Shroud's racquets (or mine) to hit with as the only racquet that they could use. A lot of people would probably give up.

 

[mad dog1]

The rec players with wood racquets survived.

I saw a lot of rec players in the 70s and 80s. If you couldn't manage swinging a heavy racquet with enough force to get the ball over the other side, you gave it up. So you had an evolution of tennis players - the remaining players had to develop better strokes or they left the game. Then the Prince came out and I saw lots more players out there hitting with poor technique and, a little later, arm braces.

The racquets today do a lot more to allow bad technique compared to the wood racquets of old.

I'd guess that the old wood racquet users could adapt to modern technique with work (I did, so how hard could it be?).

It's like giving everyone Shroud's racquets (or mine) to hit with as the only racquet that they could use. A lot of people would probably give up.

There were TONS of rec players during the age of wood racquets because that was the height of tennis' popularity. And I saw most of them with poor technique back then just like now.

 

[GuyClinch]

> Court time is $100/hr. Do you book the court for the 1/2 hour slot before your match?

You need to give up tennis and pick another hobby if this is your issue. What people aren't telling you - is that regardless of lessons - the guys who get good at tennis - are getting 'into' it and playing 20 hours a week - at some point. This is how you get better at tennis if you were an adult who picked it up. You get the 'bug'.

Tennis is not all about the guru trainer. And searching for such a guy is a waste of time unless you are prepared to commit financially to such a guy. Again any college player who you are paying can help you improve. But they function a lot like a very skilled hitting partner (not an opponent). Want to practice returning a tough kick serve on your backhand? He can make that happen. What to practice hitting tough volleys while at the service line? That can happen too. It's quite beneficial.

That being said there is no shame in hanging around your level if you don't have the time or money to advance beyond 3.0/3.5 IMHO. Most people get 'stuck' at that level for a reason..