Why almost no tennis coaches can actually coach worth a damn.

[movdqa]

There were TONS of rec players during the age of wood racquets because that was the height of tennis' popularity. And I saw most of them with poor technique back then just like now.

Well, those that couldn't move the weight dropped out or got injured and dropped out.

Today, they can keep playing.

I see the differences in technique problems between then and now.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I agree with the idea of coach as hitting partner.
I took almost 40 hours of lessons in 2016, and that was largely what I dictated for most of those sessions.
I would practice approach shots for an entire lesson, or groundstrokes, or running forehand.
Pick a weakness then drill the crap out of it.
I did a couple of lessons that were entirely return of serve (conti volley block return of a big serve)
I plan to continue doing exactly that in 2017.
Tennis is a game of repetition and muscle memory.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Court fees are moot point for me. I play on free public courts.
However, the rubes who play USTA are paying 4-figure money to play indoors when outdoor courts are vacant.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Court fees are moot point for me. I play on free public courts.
However, the rubes who play USTA are paying 4-figure money to play indoors when outdoor courts are vacant.

They are not just paying for the courts.

 

[sureshs]

Point by point:

1. Well, yes, if the tossing arm moves too fast. I find that as long as I let it go up real slow, there is no problem. Also, that it has to go along with bending the knees and making an angle with the shoulders. If it's just the tossing arm going up with nothing else happening in the body, there may be problems irrespective of how one holds the ball. I say may because some people seem to do it just fine without knee bend, nothing.

2. Maybe, but from my perspective I will take anything that stabilises the toss. Besides, I remember serving with a conti grip felt awkward too the first time around. Any new wrinkle in tennis feels awkward until, with practice, the muscles get used to it. As of today, my default way of holding the ball is already how it was shown in that video which I posted. It wasn't so on day 1, where my fingers tended to revert to what they were used to. Takes time.

3. This is what I also feel intuitively but since I am not looking for a very high toss, it's fine by me. I want it just high enough that I can fully extend the racquet and that seems to be happening with this toss style, so I'll take it.

Which pros hold the ball like that?

 

[Simon Paterson]

A lot of coaches are 4.0-4.5 players. I've even seen 3.5 players coaching and offering instruction to others. How many 3.5-4.5 players have you seen who have really fundamentally sounds serves? I haven't seen many.

I am unsure as to what is happening in the States, but here in the UK to coach you have to pass 'play tests' or be a certain 'rating'. I'm a coach for performance Juniors and I assure you in Britain we can hit a great ball

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Which pros hold the ball like that?

I didn't devote a minute to that because...I don't know about you but I certainly can't serve like the pros. That said, according to Brent Abel, Fed holds the ball like that:

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I remember going through a book on the History of Warfare with my son when he was about 7 years old and the hardest part to deal with was context. He didn't see issues with logistics and supply lines because he could go to the store to get anything that he needed and had hot and cold running water, heat and cooling when he wanted and instant communications around the world. Talking about a supply line to deliver food and water to a marching army was a pretty foreign concept to try to get across. Dealing with the weight of armor or equipment was a foreign concept as transportation for us today is so easy.

I have a friend that was a Professor and he related the same problems. Younger folks lack historical context.

A lot of college textbooks go over the background of the subject in the beginning or through the textbook and the intellectually curious student will go through these snippets and maybe look a little deeper into what pioneers and scientists had to deal with in the past. Those are the kids that professors look for to help them with their research. There are too many kids that just want a good grade and will work just hard enough to get it.

This may surprise you but in this conversation, I am the younger one and my age is about the no. of years TimeToPlaySets has said he plays tennis. I remember seeing a video on youtube of Borg discussing his shots. To be clear, a video that was made back in the day when Borg was no.1. Surely there must have been other such videos, either done for TV or videotape instructionals? I can relate to what Shroud says with regard to people having to work harder back then to get information as it wasn't readily available on the net. One of my neighbours from my school days had the Britannica Encyclopedia and it was a coveted possession. Neighbour's envy, owner's pride as an ad punchline from the 90s went.

 

[movdqa]

Court fees are moot point for me. I play on free public courts.
However, the rubes who play USTA are paying 4-figure money to play indoors when outdoor courts are vacant.

Their money, their decision on how to spend it. Seems fine to me.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I am unsure as to what is happening in the States, but here in the UK to coach you have to pass 'play tests' or be a certain 'rating'. I'm a coach for performance Juniors and I assure you in Britain we can hit a great ball

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

In the US, "coach" can mean a number of things. You can be a "coach" for a high school team and have never even played tennis. Or you can coach high performance juniors and need legit credentials.

 

[Chadillac]

Is there no accreditation process to be able to call yourself a tennis coach in the US?

Here in Australia, you just can't go out and coach without doing a proper course and meeting the required standards.

As a rule, the minimum playing level is ITN 5 to even do the course (that's about 4.0 - 4.5 NTRP)

I just don't get it..

There is the uspta and usptr here. You get "certified" by attending classes on the weekends. Its really goofy, i stopped my uspta because of the new "educational" requirement. I dont wanna spend my weekends at a social gathering, thats basically what it is.

Pushing "education" makes all the pro's teach the same, my best coach trained steffi when she was really young and had no certification. Ive seen many people go through the educational part and become "pro's", they barely know how to play themself, what exactly are they teaching? Something from a book with no improvisation.

Just ask the coach random questions and see if they can keep up off script. Explain to you why this way is better than that, etc

 

[GuyClinch]

In the US, "coach" can mean a number of things. You can be a "coach" for a high school team and have never even played tennis. Or you can coach high performance juniors and need legit credentials.

This. It's even more complicated though because you have some coaches that could at one time hit and now cannot. Or you have specialists that specialize in biomechanics but cannot play at all etc.

But most of the time in the US - you are hiring a HITTER and a COACH in one. This guy is called a 'teaching pro' and can cost upwards of $100 dollars an hour. They are currently "good" players 5.0 or better - could be lower if old (but can still crush it if hit reasonably close to them).

These are the guys the OP doesn't think can 'coach' them or help him. I disagree. Almost any player with the necessary skills (5.0) and better can help - and I personally don't think "USTA" qualifications or whatever matter a damn bit. Though most of them have them.

It's like a tutor in math. Maybe one of them went to teaching school - and has a teaching degree - but a fellow student in math class might teach better..

If you are hiring a teaching pro though - I think its better to think of it a bit like hiring a contractor for your house. You are the 'general contractor" and you have to know what you want done and what you want to work on. In this analogy going to IMG (Nick's Academy) and letting those guys work on your game is like hiring a general contactor - its potentially more effective but way more expensive - and you might not even get the exact house you want..

 

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

There is no law saying you have to be accredited to call yourself a coach in the United States, but there are several accrediting agencies.

It is up to the student to choose whether or not he or she wants an accredited coach. That's the way it should be in my opinion.

Why? Because the best way to teach tennis is still in dispute and having the government select an accrediting agency as mandatory does nothing to settle the question of the best way to teach or the best technique. Competition between coaches and accrediting agencies leads to a more dynamic advancement in the sport instead of cranking out cookie cutter coaches based on debatable and sometimes outdated information.

I've had a player come to me (I'm not currently accredited to teach tennis) for lessons because his accredited coach wouldn't show him how to hit forehands with a SW grip. I definitely will not fault the accrediting body for this because I doubt the accrediting body has a thing against the SW grip.

The OP should speak with the coaches before taking a lesson. In my part of Southern California there are a lot of coaches who can teach standard serve technique if you ask them.

Well, gee, thanks, i wasn't expecting a libertarian manifesto!

I actually disagree with you on a couple of key points as an accredited coach is (obviously) trained and competent in a range of techniques and is therefore able to coach multiple styles.

I play with a single handed backhand, for example, but I mostly coach a 2 hander initially, particularly in younger players

I also would disagree that the 'best way to teach tennis is still in dispute'

No, it really isn't, not at the entry level phase

But thanks for your considered response, it is appreciated

 

[heninfan99]

Well, gee, thanks, i wasn't expecting a libertarian manifesto!

HAHAHAHA

...it is not too bad, you'll end up meeting quite a cast of characters as you try to find the right pro.

 

[movdqa]

This. It's even more complicated though because you have some coaches that could at one time hit and now cannot. Or you have specialists that specialize in biomechanics but cannot play at all etc.

But most of the time in the US - you are hiring a HITTER and a COACH in one. This guy is called a 'teaching pro' and can cost upwards of $100 dollars an hour. They are currently "good" players 5.0 or better - could be lower if old (but can still crush it if hit reasonably close to them).

These are the guys the OP doesn't think can 'coach' them or help him. I disagree. Almost any player with the necessary skills (5.0) and better can help - and I personally don't think "USTA" qualifications or whatever matter a damn bit. Though most of them have them.

It's like a tutor in math. Maybe one of them went to teaching school - and has a teaching degree - but a fellow student in math class might teach better..

If you are hiring a teaching pro though - I think its better to think of it a bit like hiring a contractor for your house. You are the 'general contractor" and you have to know what you want done and what you want to work on. In this analogy going to IMG (Nick's Academy) and letting those guys work on your game is like hiring a general contactor - its potentially more effective but way more expensive - and you might not even get the exact house you want..

I've taught K-12 math and tutored college math (peer). My son tutored college math (engineering and science) for five years. The biggest factor in tutoring at the college level is figuring out what the root problem is. At this level, students are usually pretty motivated and they've already had to take a fair number of background courses. My son tells me that the most frequent problem is a weakness in algebra, trig, or something else. They understand the college-level material but they can't do the intermediate analysis and manipulation to solve problems. The solution, in those cases, is to get them up to speed in the deficiency. The times when you just have to go over material and do some problems to demonstrate is the easy stuff.

 

[WildVolley]

Well, gee, thanks, i wasn't expecting a libertarian manifesto!

I'm an economist and am government accredited in other things. I can provide you with both arguments and empirical evidence from many academic journal articles if you really want to dispute the benefits of competition.

I actually disagree with you on a couple of key points as an accredited coach is (obviously) trained and competent in a range of techniques and is therefore able to coach multiple styles.

Obviously. LOL! I question your experience with accreditation. I have experience in fields with far more rigorous standards than tennis instruction and I've still run into accredited incompetents.

I play with a single handed backhand, for example, but I mostly coach a 2 hander initially, particularly in younger players

I believe you. I'm not accredited and I can coach both.

I also would disagree that the 'best way to teach tennis is still in dispute'

Are you new here?

No, it really isn't, not at the entry level phase

Do you have controlled studies backing up your claim?

But thanks for your considered response, it is appreciated

You're welcome.

 

[sureshs]

I didn't devote a minute to that because...I don't know about you but I certainly can't serve like the pros. That said, according to Brent Abel, Fed holds the ball like that:

Yes his palm is vertical rather than horizontal at release. Good catch.

 

[tlm]

You need to give up tennis and pick another hobby if this is your issue. What people aren't telling you - is that regardless of lessons - the guys who get good at tennis - are getting 'into' it and playing 20 hours a week - at some point. This is how you get better at tennis if you were an adult who picked it up. You get the 'bug'.

Tennis is not all about the guru trainer. And searching for such a guy is a waste of time unless you are prepared to commit financially to such a guy. Again any college player who you are paying can help you improve. But they function a lot like a very skilled hitting partner (not an opponent). Want to practice returning a tough kick serve on your backhand? He can make that happen. What to practice hitting tough volleys while at the service line? That can happen too. It's quite beneficial.

That being said there is no shame in hanging around your level if you don't have the time or money to advance beyond 3.0/3.5 IMHO. Most people get 'stuck' at that level for a reason..

This is pretty accurate, as you say the guys who improve are into it and dedicated. Pretty much in any sport you need to get the bug if you really want to improve.

I agree to that getting better is not all about some magical coach, but good coaching can definitely help if you have the resources, time and a good coach it will help you improve more rapidly. But it is not a must, I think having the bug and determination is more important.

I have watched some that take some lessons with a good coach but do not put the time and work in on their own so they do not improve as much as the player that plays everyday and rarely if ever takes lessons.

 

[movdqa]

I play with a guy who started in his 40s and he plays 4.0 tournaments and leagues now (he's in his late 50s). He is a bus driver and single and has pretty unorthodox strokes but he makes it works. He gets in a lot of practice and takes advice from a former college player.

 

[Ash_Smith]

I am unsure as to what is happening in the States, but here in the UK to coach you have to pass 'play tests' or be a certain 'rating'. I'm a coach for performance Juniors and I assure you in Britain we can hit a great ball

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Technically that isn't true - coaching is an unregulated industry in the UK and anyone can call themselves a coach and start working. Obviously LTA registered clubs are highly "encouraged" only to use LTA Accredited coaches, but there are other options for training from the RPT, PTR and others.

 

[sureshs]

If coaching is your career, it makes sense to get certified, at least to provide some peace of mind to parents about not being a criminal. I don't think background checks are needed for certification, but at least someone has taken a look at you. Clubs are also looking for the liability insurance.

 

[graycrait]

I play with a guy who started in his 40s and he plays 4.0 tournaments and leagues now (he's in his late 50s). He is a bus driver and single and has pretty unorthodox strokes but he makes it works. He gets in a lot of practice and takes advice from a former college player.

A local guy my age owns a hardware store he runs with his wife. He strings rackets in the "tennis area" in back ,has at least 4 kids all goof h.s. players, one is playing D1 on scholarship. At least two others are currently in Phd programs. Wife was a member of this years USTA state championship 4.0 55+ team. I asked him one time if he and I should go up to the "big city" and play those big city boys who pay big bucks to play tennis. (we see each other playing 5-7 days a week for free unless it is winter and we move to our 'inexpensive' indoor courts). He said why would I want to go to XX city to pay big money, driving 3 hours, to play a game I love and play for fun?" Good point.

 

[heninfan99]

Am impressed he has thriving hardware store with home depots around.

A local guy my age owns a hardware store he runs with his wife. He strings rackets in the "tennis area" in back ,has at least 4 kids all goof h.s. players, one is playing D1 on scholarship. At least two others are currently in Phd programs. Wife was a member of this years USTA state championship 4.0 55+ team. I asked him one time if he and I should go up to the "big city" and play those big city boys who pay big bucks to play tennis. (we see each other playing 5-7 days a week for free unless it is winter and we move to our 'inexpensive' indoor courts). He said why would I want to go to XX city to pay big money, driving 3 hours, to play a game I love and play for fun?" Good point.

 

[graycrait]

Am impressed he has thriving hardware store with home depots around.

Location, service and heritage I guess. Rarely is the parking not almost full. The two Lowe's, one Home Depot and three WalMart SuperCenters are just far enough away.

 

[tennis_balla]

There are tennis coaches and then there are ball feeders. As a customer you gotta figure out who is who. It isn't difficult, just gotta be aware.

Some are very good salesman and people love to be BS 'ed or fall for it.
One big difference I found coaching in North America and Europe is that in N.A. people love to have someone organize them on court. This is why tennis 'clinics' are popular along with Thursday night ladies doubles groups for example organized by the club.

Also you have to realize many people lead busy lives, have kids, demanding jobs, families to take care of etc. and disposable income. They might not have time or want to to spend hours online watching YouTube videos which may or may not be helpful or reading posts on forums from complete strangers. They wanna go to a club, have regular lessons and trust the business that they hired competent coaches. Doesn't always work out that way but it's life.

 

[meltphace 6]

There are tennis coaches and then there are ball feeders. As a customer you gotta figure out who is who. It isn't difficult, just gotta be aware.

The funny thing is that there are many customers (rec player that plays once a week) actually expect just to be fed balls into their comfy zone. I've had one player call the split step the "stupid hop" for instance - ok, so much about "I want to improve and learn the game." A customer gotta figure out (maybe w/coaches help) what kind of customer he or she is eventually.

The Fedr practice session that popped up recently made me LOL at 13:15 (

). Yeah, it's a promo video which shows that average tennis Joe/Josephine expect a basket drill in a cliché tennis session.

 

[movdqa]

The funny thing is that there are many customers (rec player that plays once a week) actually expect just to be fed balls into their comfy zone. I've had one player call the split step the "stupid hop" for instance - ok, so much about "I want to improve and learn the game." A customer gotta figure out (maybe w/coaches help) what kind of customer he or she is eventually.

The Fedr practice session that popped up recently made me LOL at 13:15 (

). Yeah, it's a promo video which shows that average tennis Joe/Josephine expect a basket drill in a cliché tennis session.

I did basket drills like that back in the 1980s. Coach at the net, hitting you a groundstroke, short ball to come in on, volley, and then overhead. There were typically three people in rotation for these. This was back when I lived with a tennis coach and another player that he used for practice partners for his students. It's nice to see the variety of stuff that Federer does in his practice sessions. Some of that stuff I do in the gym as our weather often doesn't work well with outdoor workouts and court time can be precious.

 

[meltphace 6]

I did basket drills like that back in the 1980s. Coach at the net, hitting you a groundstroke, short ball to come in on, volley, and then overhead. There were typically three people in rotation for these.

Add some music, agility ladder and stuff and keep 8 people busy on one court. Market it as "Cardio Tennis."

 

[movdqa]

Add some music, agility ladder and stuff and keep 8 people busy on one court. Market it as "Cardio Tennis."

We had one coach playing loud rock music on the court for his kids. That lasted for about a month. The folks on surrounding courts were not amused. I really don't like playing or practicing next to a lesson with a large number of kids. Just the number of balls coming onto our court is enough of a headache.

We have an agility ladder in one of the gyms in the office that I mean to try out.

 

[meltphace 6]

I really don't like playing or practicing next to a lesson with a large number of kids. Just the number of balls coming onto our court is enough of a headache.

A great thing from time to time because difficult conditions make it a free mental training session.

 

[tennis_balla]

The funny thing is that there are many customers (rec player that plays once a week) actually expect just to be fed balls into their comfy zone. I've had one player call the split step the "stupid hop" for instance - ok, so much about "I want to improve and learn the game." A customer gotta figure out (maybe w/coaches help) what kind of customer he or she is eventually.

The Fedr practice session that popped up recently made me LOL at 13:15 (

). Yeah, it's a promo video which shows that average tennis Joe/Josephine expect a basket drill in a cliché tennis session.

Many players are uncoachable and only do what they like or what makes them feel comfortable. I coach a guy in the summer who uses an extreme forehand grip. He keeps saying he wants to be able to hit the ball like I do with more pace etc. His shots are slow and spinny because of his grip. I told him that, and showed him why he has problems with midcourt shots to put away or low balls. I set him up with a semi western grip, he hit 2 shots not lying here and said he doesn't like the feel can't control it and went back to his regular grip. Also he has lots of fundamental faults which he knows about and needs to work on but doesn't want me to drill him, just hit with him from the baseline then wonders why tennis is so difficult. Tried explaining it to him, he says he knows I'm 100% right but that it's the only way he wants the lessons to go.

 

[meltphace 6]

Many players are uncoachable and only do what they like or what makes them feel comfortable. I coach a guy in the summer who uses an extreme forehand grip. He keeps saying he wants to be able to hit the ball like I do with more pace etc. His shots are slow and spinny because of his grip. I told him that, and showed him why he has problems with midcourt shots to put away or low balls. I set him up with a semi western grip, he hit 2 shots not lying here and said he doesn't like the feel can't control it and went back to his regular grip. Also he has lots of fundamental faults which he knows about and needs to work on but doesn't want me to drill him, just hit with him from the baseline then wonders why tennis is so difficult. Tried explaining it to him, he says he knows I'm 100% right but that it's the only way he wants the lessons to go.

Hahahaha, classic stuff! Do you offer sparring? I suggested this to my boss but he's afraid to lose money. Damn, that would make life so much easier.

 

[tennis_balla]

Hahahaha, classic stuff! Do you offer sparring? I suggested this to my boss but he's afraid to lose money. Damn, that would make life so much easier.

Yea, if someone wants to hit with me I'll do that no problem but majority of the time I tell them I have to charge them more. It all depends on what level they are and what they want out of that hitting lesson.

If they're a 5.0 and above for example and want me to play full out for that hour I charge more. The reason is, for starters I'll bring a new can of balls or almost new, never used or ball basket balls. I'm using a racket that's strung with ALU Power strings which aren't cheap and neither are shoes etc, I'm exerting all my energy to give that player the best I can for that hour.
Now compare that to a local ball feeder feeding balls all day long with his shoe laces untied. If a player wants a certain type of service he has to pay for it. It's the same as taking a cheap taxi home and being driven in a Chevy or going premium and getting a ride in a Mercedes. Different service. There's no shame in that if what you offer has value and you can back it up.
I give people deals all the time but it's all economics. Who wants to be paid $20/hr running around the court like a chicken sweating his balls off? You're selling yourself short if you can do so much better.

 

[MisterP]

Good point, OP.

Any coach brave enough to take on an adult learner whose ambition so vastly outweighs their natural ability must surely be a veritable tennis jedi master.

 

[meltphace 6]

Yea, if someone wants to hit with me I'll do that no problem but majority of the time I tell them I have to charge them more. It all depends on what level they are and what they want out of that hitting lesson.

If they're a 5.0 and above for example and want me to play full out for that hour I charge more. The reason is, for starters I'll bring a new can of balls or almost new, never used or ball basket balls. I'm using a racket that's strung with ALU Power strings which aren't cheap and neither are shoes etc, I'm exerting all my energy to give that player the best I can for that hour.
Now compare that to a local ball feeder feeding balls all day long with his shoe laces untied. If a player wants a certain type of service he has to pay for it. It's the same as taking a cheap taxi home and being driven in a Chevy or going premium and getting a ride in a Mercedes. Different service. There's no shame in that if what you offer has value and you can back it up.
I give people deals all the time but it's all economics. Who wants to be paid $20/hr running around the court like a chicken sweating his balls off? You're selling yourself short if you can do so much better.

Absolutely reasonable. Thanks for your input. I guess you're self employed. In my shoes: I'd rather rally with an uncoachable 3.5 barefooted with a frying pan than to actually coach him/her. Boss with a national ranking < 60 rightfully takes on the better players.

 

[meltphace 6]

Taking a look at the OP/thread title and the amount of various threads OP created - what can we (coaches, rec players, semi pros) learn?

IMHO: get laid.

 

[MisterP]

If they're a 5.0 and above for example and want me to play full out for that hour I charge more. The reason is, for starters I'll bring a new can of balls or almost new, never used or ball basket balls. I'm using a racket that's strung with ALU Power strings which aren't cheap and neither are shoes etc, I'm exerting all my energy to give that player the best I can for that hour.

I'm curious to know how often a 5.0+ is willing to pay more than an hourly rate ($60-$80?) just to rally with someone.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Here's the deal. What is the point of tennis for 95% of the public? Answer: fun. Now, how does someone have fun?

Is it fun for a 3.0 adult 45 yo player to change his/her stroke fundamentals and lose matches for 6 months while they learn better fundamentals? While in the process losing their social life, playing contacts, and teammates don't want to be paired up with them anymore? Answer: no, not fun. What they want from a lesson is "how do I win more points with the strokes I have".

Is it fun for a wannabe competitive 14 year old to lose matches? Would she rather lose matches for 6 months so she can be better when she is 16? Answer: yes, that's fun.

As a coach, you gotta know the difference.

 

[tennis_balla]

I'm curious to know how often a 5.0+ is willing to pay more than an hourly rate ($60-$80?) just to rally with someone.

It isn't common but it happens and pros pay hitting partners all the time for a reason. Some people wanna work on their games doing live ball drills, and a coach is a reliable bet in terms of availability and ability.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Here's the deal. What is the point of tennis for 95% of the public? Answer: fun. Now, how does someone have fun?

Is it fun for a 3.0 adult 45 yo player to change his/her stroke fundamentals and lose matches for 6 months while they learn better fundamentals? While in the process losing their social life, playing contacts, and teammates don't want to be paired up with them anymore? Answer: no, not fun. What they want from a lesson is "how do I win more points with the strokes I have".

Is it fun for a wannabe competitive 14 year old to lose matches? Would she rather lose matches for 6 months so she can be better when she is 16? Answer: yes, that's fun.

As a coach, you gotta know the difference.

That depends on which stroke, right? Adjustments to the serve or forehand can affect your game until you get used to it. But why would not volleying with wrong grip lead to more matches lost? Not unless you volley compulsively and if you do, you're probably already very good at it. I also wonder if the need to compete in ratings based tournaments gets in the way of improvement. We don't have that here so we sometimes play with much stronger players and sometimes with much weaker ones and so on. Being able to hang with the better players is a big motivation to get better at your game. There are those who are content to coast here too but they are usually the ones who took up tennis pretty late say 40 and above. 20/30 somethings want to get better and are not so hung up on winning matches.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@Dolgopolov85

Yes his palm is vertical rather than horizontal at release. Good catch.

Yup, at release Fed's toss resembles the so-called "ice cream cone" toss. However, when he starts his tossing motion, most of his fingers appear to be underneath the ball (or maybe something between under and to the side). As he lifts the tossing arm it appears to pronate a bit so that his fingers are no longer under the ball at release.

 

[kramer woodie]

The rec players with wood racquets survived.

I saw a lot of rec players in the 70s and 80s. If you couldn't manage swinging a heavy racquet with enough force to get the ball over the other side, you gave it up. So you had an evolution of tennis players - the remaining players had to develop better strokes or they left the game. Then the Prince came out and I saw lots more players out there hitting with poor technique and, a little later, arm braces.

The racquets today do a lot more to allow bad technique compared to the wood racquets of old.

I'd guess that the old wood racquet users could adapt to modern technique with work (I did, so how hard could it be?).

It's like giving everyone Shroud's racquets (or mine) to hit with as the only racquet that they could use. A lot of people would probably give up.

movdqa

You've made some interesting posts that I find spot on: old racquets, mine 15.3 ounce Kramer woodie, swung a 14.2 woodie last night, wow is
my shoulder sore...get away with bad technique with modern equipment, see it every day...want to win more, refuse to do the work...take a
lesson, accomplish correct technique and comment "that really works great", then revert to old method cause it feels comfortable or the brain
just disengages (your guess is as good as mine) though I believe some students just want to PLAY and have fun winning without the work...lack
obsession and the ability to suffer to work harder...etc..

I have one student who plays quite well...sometimes stop by to see him practice (not a formal lesson) just to observe him, to plan future things
to work on. Sometimes he'll have trouble with his serve (I"ve seen college players have trouble returning this high schooler's serve), while anyway,
the kid will ask me what the problem is, sometimes there is a slight problem, and sometimes everything is great technique. Usual the technique
is great, but his brain gets in the way. I usually make a recommendation (which can be total irrelevant, there is no problem) which engages his brain
and gets it out of his way, leading to success.

Most players need to better learn how not to defeat themselves. They have enough to deal with coming from their opponent without helping
their opponent win.

The truly great are obsessive and will not stop until the technique is perfected and be the first to admit they could work harder and perform
better, perfection is just on the horizon, and can't be reached.

Aloha

 

[sureshs]

@Dolgopolov85



Yup, at release Fed's toss resembles the so-called "ice cream cone" toss. However, when he starts his tossing motion, most of his fingers appear to be underneath the ball (or maybe something between under and to the side). As he lifts the tossing arm it appears to pronate a bit so that his fingers are no longer under the ball at release.

That is a great analysis

 

[movdqa]

movdqa

You've made some interesting posts that I find spot on: old racquets, mine 15.3 ounce Kramer woodie, swung a 14.2 woodie last night, wow is
my shoulder sore...get away with bad technique with modern equipment, see it every day...want to win more, refuse to do the work...take a
lesson, accomplish correct technique and comment "that really works great", then revert to old method cause it feels comfortable or the brain
just disengages (your guess is as good as mine) though I believe some students just want to PLAY and have fun winning without the work...lack
obsession and the ability to suffer to work harder...etc..

I have one student who plays quite well...sometimes stop by to see him practice (not a formal lesson) just to observe him, to plan future things
to work on. Sometimes he'll have trouble with his serve (I"ve seen college players have trouble returning this high schooler's serve), while anyway,
the kid will ask me what the problem is, sometimes there is a slight problem, and sometimes everything is great technique. Usual the technique
is great, but his brain gets in the way. I usually make a recommendation (which can be total irrelevant, there is no problem) which engages his brain
and gets it out of his way, leading to success.

Most players need to better learn how not to defeat themselves. They have enough to deal with coming from their opponent without helping
their opponent win.

The truly great are obsessive and will not stop until the technique is perfected and be the first to admit they could work harder and perform
better, perfection is just on the horizon, and can't be reached.

Aloha

I think that your description is great for younger players but I run into a lot of older players where they can have an obsession with tennis but responsibilities mean implementing changes and improvements over a relatively long period of time. And I think that a lot of older players look at that and don't bother with it. Sometimes I feel like it's similar to putting $10,000 in a 1-year CD and getting back $50. Seems like a paltry return for so much money but that's what my Credit Union was paying last year. It's a lot more fun to trade and maybe make 6-7% in a month - but there's the potential to lose that much too.

So I do think that you need to be obsessed to improve in tennis but that's it's harder to manage as you get older.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

@Dolgopolov85

Yup, at release Fed's toss resembles the so-called "ice cream cone" toss. However, when he starts his tossing motion, most of his fingers appear to be underneath the ball (or maybe something between under and to the side). As he lifts the tossing arm it appears to pronate a bit so that his fingers are no longer under the ball at release.

Clay seems to be saying the opposite though. That the palm of his hand is facing the sky at the point of release. From the video, I can't make out clearly enough but I shouldn't be able to see the palm if it truly was facing the sky. Your screen grab also indicates that it's NOT facing the sky at release. Anyway, breaking down just how Fed tosses the ball for his serve is not my cuppa, so I'll bow out of this discussion. I need to give whatever toss seems to be working some time before I decide to move on from it (if I do).

 

[TennisCJC]

Not this again..

1) Get coaches who are currently 5.0+ players.
2) Hit with them.
3) Improve.

You will gain benefit simply from hitting with very good players who can place a lot of balls for you to hit and move you around.
If they can give you some tips - that's even better. It's tennis not rocket science. Even strong players can generally give tips that will help bad players. This idea that for rec players there are no good coaches for JAG 3.5s - hogwash. Entire college teams could coach those guys up..

You do get this is pretty much all pro coaches are. They are decent players who decided to make a living out of it. It's the same with skiing, surfing etc. Just watching and hitting with superior players is enough. This is the real way all the pros have learned.

Now if you are dumb enough to sign up with some 3.5 huckster full of zen BS who can't and never could play that you found on Craiglist. That's likely a problem. But you wouldn't find those guys on the staff of any decent club.

Now for 5.0+ juniors - that's a whole other ball of wax - and you need to look for a different skill set and a track record of success in coaching..

Yea, I agree. Took a couple of privates from a local coach. He was in his 40s, played college tennis, and had a decent adult ranking. We worked primarily on hitting lessons where he throw a variety of spins and pace at me. We worked on baseline shots, approaches and volleys. He threw out a few pointers and would also target his shots to get me to correct mistakes. For example, if I missed a short low FH approach, he would say "close the shoulder a little more on that short FH" and hit me a few more until I got it right. $60 hour and I thought it was well spent.

But, I do think there are many coaches that dumb down the instruction level to the audience. For example, if they are coaching a 50 year old 3.5 player who has used a conti grip on the FH forever and hits primarily a no spin flat FH, I see very few coaches that will try to get the player to change grips or even to hit more spin with the conti grip. I occasionally hear the "shape the shot" phrase but a lot of players have no clue what that means. This one of my complaints with coaches, they seem content to let the player that has bad grips and no spin continue to use bad grips and no spin rather than push the player for a change. I am opinionated but I think even older players can make changes IF they are committed to the change.

 

[DavidGibson]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

Lets put things into context, Housewives don't make up a very significant percentage of those who take tennis lessons. In fact at my club you can count the number of housewives who take lessons on one hand and have fingers left over. Male adults are no better represented. The students that make up the vast majority are elementary and high school aged.

Now Let's look at the expectations of the students in contrast to the level of coaching that is available.

The first group I'll call the temporary students, These are players who want to play on their high school team and maybe try and make it to districts. Most don't have the desire to play college tennis. This group might take one lesson a week and play 2 or 3 times a week. The coaches don't have to be especially high level to coach this segment but their coaching will set the students apart from the kids who just wing it.

The next group is what I'll refer to as the serious high school player. This player wants to win districts and play some level of college tennis. They take more lessons and hit 4-5 days a week. They are the number one and two players on high school teams and play a few USTA tournaments here and there. The typical teaching pro will still be able to help these players but the standouts in this segment are sometimes hampered by the lack of higher level coaching.

The final segment is the ranked juniors who have aspirations to play pro tennis or top Division one tennis. These players live and breath tennis and need the best coaches in order to meet their goals. In order to play under the best coaches they are willing to relocate to another state or country.

It is the student and his or her expectations that dictate the level of coaching. The only segment that potentially suffers is the semi serious standout who is somewhere between the serious high school player and the ranked junior. These players who might otherwise excel under better coaches may be held back due to the limits of the local coaches... But to say that the available coaching is somehow insufficient for recreation players who want to improve is absurd.

 

[Crocodile]

As has been mentioned quite a few times here, yes there are good and not so good tennis coaches going round. There are some who are highly qualified, experienced and constantly updating their expertise and yes you will pay more for quality. On the flip side there are those who have little or no qualifications, rum businesses that resemble child care centres and will collect your money, and the parents will send their kids there because it's cheaper than a child care centre and/or more convenient which I find is bad for the industry.
As a customer, you need to do your research before you sign up. Always look for highly qualified people who are passionate and enthusiastic about their profession. Sometimes this could be someone who runs a smaller yet high quality program. There are a lot of guys and girls who coach 40 hours a week for years and some of them will get into a rut where they are just going through the motions just to get through their week. This is not good for tennis.
Then you have the guy that gets employed by a centre at a cheap rate and he/she is just after some pocket money to top of his/her income from their other job or they are part timers who don't care because they have no accountability
The next point is that the same variance you see with coaching expertise also can be found on the Internet because anyone can start a blog or do a video so you need to do your due diligence there as well, and don't forget that Internet advice is general, whereas a private coach can be individualised which is better, right.
Finally the student also has a level of responsibility as well. If you only play once a week for half an hour you can only expect so much. There are some students who don't listen to instruction because they spend too much time on you tube watching tips that are not relevant to their own game.

 

[Dan R]

At my club two of the coaches are former top 500 in the world players, another is still playing professionally and he's been one match away from qualifying for the US Open twice (he's an NTRP 6.0), many of the others are still 5.0 to 5.5 players, some of these guys coach at the Universities in the area. One of the coaches who is near 60 won 36 straight points against a female junior who is currently one of the top 3 juniors in the US (she's been ranked No. 1). They regularly attend coaching clinics taught by some of the best coaches in the world. I sat in on one of those clinics a few weeks ago that was taught by Stan Warinka's coach, Magnus Norman. And this is not a super ritzy club - just a regular fitness center with tennis courts. From my experience it's not hard at all to find a really good instructor. In fact I feel for these guys they are working hard trying to make a living and it's tough.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

What is the hourly rate to get lessons from these touring pros and those who coach college bound players?

Getting A few lessons a week from a club sounds like it's a $40,000 a year investment?