Why almost no tennis coaches can actually coach worth a damn.

TimeToPlaySets said:
What is the hourly rate to get lessons from these touring pros and those who coach college bound players?

Getting A few lessons a week from a club sounds like it's a $40,000 a year investment?
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Recreational players don't need former pros. Former pros do not nessarly make good coaches anyway. Any teaching pro can help a recreational player. Count on $50-$90 an hour for a typical certified teaching pro. The certification processes makes it very difficult to get your credentials unless you know how to teach the fundamentals. One hour lesson a week over the course of a year will do wonders for your game assuming you practice what your taught.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
What is the hourly rate to get lessons from these touring pros and those who coach college bound players?

Getting A few lessons a week from a club sounds like it's a $40,000 a year investment?
Click to expand...

Lessons are around $75-$80/hour. Therese guys aren't ATP touring pros, but they are excellent players. In fact Magnus Norman told one of them they he would have no problem having him hit with Stan. I agree that you don't need someone super good for a coach. But the OP was complaining about coaches who aren't any good, and I'm just saying that has not been my experience.
 
Played with a 4.0 and asked him about his volley grip. He told me he uses extreme semi Western at the net. So much for learning from others.
 
Gotta pay coaches to learn correct tennis. Everything else in life, I'm self taught to mastery. Fail at basically nothing. To learn from other people who have not paid thousands in lessons is simply terrible advice. I gave the proof.
 
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One lesson a week costs $4000 a year.
But, one lesson a week is basically useless.
Even 2 lessons a week is marginally productive, and that's $8000 a year.
 
Oh, and I went to the local club today.
There place was dominated by white haired ladies in their 60s and 70s.

So, I stand corrected, it's not just housewives and little 8 year olds who take lessons.
It's also tons of bored retired women.

And that simply proves my point even more.
These coaches are training almost no one at any competitive level,
which explains why they have zero clue how to teach a 3.5

They can only teach 2.0s stuff like "shake hands with the racket" and "sweep up at the ball"
They literally spend 30 years repeating this to people who will never get past 2.5,
and feeding balls in an underhand style, if you will.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Oh, and I went to the local club today.
There place was dominated by white haired ladies in their 60s and 70s.

So, I stand corrected, it's not just housewives and little 8 year olds who take lessons.
It's also tons of bored retired women.

And that simply proves my point even more.
These coaches are training almost no one at any competitive level,
which explains why they have zero clue how to teach a 3.5

They can only teach 2.0s stuff like "shake hands with the racket" and "sweep up at the ball"
They literally spend 30 years repeating this to people who will never get past 2.5,
and feeding balls in an underhand style, if you will.
Click to expand...

Why are older women that like to play tennis bored?
So what are you then a young guy that is bored and sucks at tennis?
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
One lesson a week costs $4000 a year.
Click to expand...
That's on the expensive side. Our club charges $60 per hour or roughly $3100 a year.

But, one lesson a week is basically useless.
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I have no idea how you can think that 52 hours of instruction over a year's period is useless. What is your goal? You're not trying to be a professional player are you? Many very good players at our club take just one lesson a week of one on one instruction but follow it up with clinics and match play.. so while they are only getting one personal lesson a week, they are practicing 4 -5 days a week. The student has to be self motivated. Trust me, a motivated student who takes one lesson a week is going to quickly advance past 99% of the recreational players who take no lessons per week.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Oh, and I went to the local club today.
There place was dominated by white haired ladies in their 60s and 70s.

So, I stand corrected, it's not just housewives and little 8 year olds who take lessons.
It's also tons of bored retired women.
Click to expand...
Those older ladies are not taking lessons I can guarantee it! They are playing in leagues and maybe a clinic but they are not talking lessons. I know the demographics for tennis students. Older women don't take private lessons. That is a fact that any teaching pro will tell you. Older men don't take lessons either.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Played with a 4.0 and asked him about his volley grip. He told me he uses extreme semi Western at the net. So much for learning from others.
Click to expand...
Does this 4.0 player even have good strokes and volleys??? If the answer is no, then why would you even bother asking what he's doing?

There are tons of 4.0s that don't know how to volley correctly.
 
This has finally gone beyond silly!!! Only one solution for you: DO NOT TAKE LESSONS (did you hear me shout at you), instead just play tennis and have
fun even though you ability SUCKS, you will be happier, less stressed, H_LL maybe your game will improve without all the negativity and BIT_HING!!!

I wish for you to enjoy tennis and life!!!

Aloha
 
Lol. The true humor of this thread is that the OP has started numerous threads on this site asking questions like "do you slice with a SW or conti grip" and "I need a basic reliable return of serve" and "why do big serves dribble off my racquet". And yet, she/he does not think that a tennis coach can them anything.

OP, you do not need an elite tennis coach. You need a beginners class, "Tennis 101".
 
he could be a master of subtle trollery
Moveforwardalways said:
Lol. The true humor of this thread is that the OP has started numerous threads on this site asking questions like "do you slice with a SW or conti grip" and "I need a basic reliable return of serve" and "why do big serves dribble off my racquet". And yet, she/he does not think that a tennis coach can them anything.

OP, you do not need an elite tennis coach. You need a beginners class, "Tennis 101".
Click to expand...
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Oh, and I went to the local club today.
There place was dominated by white haired ladies in their 60s and 70s.

So, I stand corrected, it's not just housewives and little 8 year olds who take lessons.
It's also tons of bored retired women.

And that simply proves my point even more.
These coaches are training almost no one at any competitive level,
which explains why they have zero clue how to teach a 3.5

They can only teach 2.0s stuff like "shake hands with the racket" and "sweep up at the ball"
They literally spend 30 years repeating this to people who will never get past 2.5,
and feeding balls in an underhand style, if you will.
Click to expand...

Seems all you need to be a successful coach these days is just feed balls and butter the client up with adjectives.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Oh, and I went to the local club today.
There place was dominated by white haired ladies in their 60s and 70s.

So, I stand corrected, it's not just housewives and little 8 year olds who take lessons.
It's also tons of bored retired women..
Click to expand...

How do you know they are bored? Or even retired? Lots of older people working part-time these days.
 
So make the assumption that a student is committed and willing to work and change. Make the assumption that the coach has integrity and wants to facilitate that. Make the assumption that the coach has a valid knowledge base. You still have this fundamental problem. Words and movement don't really mix. A guy across the net feeding balls and talking doesn't communicate to the student in the language of learning which is image and feeling.
 
JohnYandell said:
Words and movement don't really mix. A guy across the net feeding balls and talking doesn't communicate to the student in the language of learning which is image and feeling.
Click to expand...
You better contact every teaching pro in the nation and the world and tell them they're wasting their time feeding balls. While you're at it, give Federer's coach a call because he was feeding balls to federer in the practice session they recorded a week ago.
 
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DavidGibson said:
You better contact every teaching pro in the nation and the world and tell them they're wasting their time feeding balls. While you're at it, give Federer's coach a call because he was feeding balls to federer in the practice session they recorded a week ago.
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Good lord... you managed to miss his point entirely. But you're new here.
 
I never said lessons don't work. Quite the contrary.
I said lessons are the ONLY way to get past 4.0

I said one lesson won't do much.
I think to make a real change, you need 100's of hours of lessons,
and thousands of hours of drills and feeds for muscle memory.

Here is where I argued that taking lessons is the ONLY way to get better.
That means 10% learning something new, and 90% of thousands of hours of drilling and repetition for muscle memory.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...nth-than-the-rest-of-my-life-combined.570523/
 
One lesson a week costs $4000 a year.
But, one lesson a week is basically useless.
Even 2 lessons a week is marginally productive, and that's $8000 a year.
Click to expand...

It's not useless if you play at least 10 hours a week off lesson in addition to the lesson. Your fundamental problem is you overestimate the difference teaching should make..

One way to think about lessons is to think about them as part of a tennis improvement program - not the program itself. If you get the bug you will work on your fitness - your mental knowledge of the game and practice ALOT. Lessons are the glue that can help tie that all together. I think 1 week lesson CAN be very helpful.

A couple of things to keep in mind..
1) The better you are - the closer you are to your ceiling - and the less of an impact lessons will have on your rating. They might help you win that 4.5 match though.
2) If you analyze the cost of lessons they can become a very poor investment after a tennis player reaches 'average' levels - this is why most rec players don't take lessons. Simple cost benefit ratio..
 
JohnYandell said:
Words and movement don't really mix. A guy across the net feeding balls and talking doesn't communicate to the student in the language of learning which is image and feeling.
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I believe this is correct but I'm not going to throw all basket feeders under the bus. I took one lesson this Winter and was told to hit the outside of the ball on my two hander and then I did just that. SOME movements require more than verbal commands for SOME students, other movements can register right away.

And these days the basket feeders do hand fed/dead ball Spanish drills just like everyone else. They'll even hit with you, there's still a place for it.
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
One lesson a week costs $4000 a year.
But, one lesson a week is basically useless.
Even 2 lessons a week is marginally productive, and that's $8000 a year.
Click to expand...
I always recommend spending 10-20hr practicing the handful of things I might give someone in a lesson... before coming back to me..
For most folks, that translates to about 1 lesson per month or at least every couple weeks...
The issue is that 9x out of 10, they don't practice, and rely on the tennis lesson to also be their time to get in their repetition.

I took a lesson from a former ATP guy once. I specifically asked for a list of things to work on at the end of the lesson. I asked to hit with one of his juniors (playing out a set) and had him sit on a bench watching me, just jotting down notes. That list was the basis of at least a years worth of training material. Granted it was 150 for the lesson, but since it was the only lesson I took that year, it was far cheaper than $4k.

You can spend 4k/yr on a lesson per week, but at that point you're just paying for a (good) hitting partner... which is probably a faster way to get beyond 4.0 (than taking a lesson per month). But if how fast you get to say a 5.0 level, is important, then you should consider taking lessons daily.

If you're gonna pay for hitting partner anyway, you could save quite a bit money hiring someone just to hit for like $20-30/hr or something (basically to be your ball machine)... or you could just buy an actual ball machine :P i prefer my instructor to NOT hit with me, and spend all his time just watching me, anyway.
 
Yes, my key for 2017 is to find a hitting partner.

Most people at 3.5 are only interested in playing matches (at the same level forever), instead of practicing.

So, most of my lessons this summer were simply trying to commit the same few basic tips to muscle memory. Didn't even come close. Need another year to practice the same 5 tips.

The issue is that I might not be able to self observe mistakes and adjustments while practicing the advice from the Lesson.

It Is almost like you need to hire a coach to watch you hitting with your paid hitting partner.

Oy vey!

But yes, is not about the lesson, is figuring out how to practice the 10 hours after the lesson, with someone. In my case, I needed to pay to coach to be the hitting partner, which came with the added benefit of additional feedback and supervision.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Played with a 4.0 and asked him about his volley grip. He told me he uses extreme semi Western at the net.
Click to expand...

Dude, that guy is screwing around with you. Sounds like you have not won the social game at your club and you've been labeled "that guy" that is the butt of every joke. He is probably hanging out with his 4.0 buds drinking beers and telling the story of how you are using a SW grip for volleys now. Lol.
 
A very dedicated coach, who was the head pro at my club, passed away over Christmas. He used to play on the tour. He had absolute commitment to every student, beginner, adult or advanced junior. I attended his memorial service today and over 200 people showed up even though it was raining. It was held next to his favorite coaching court. I never took a lesson from him but have watched him coach many many times because I like to get in a little early before my slot and do some stretching. So you could say I got a lot of coaching for free over the last 11 years! His website is (was?): http://samstennis.com/
 
JohnYandell said:
So make the assumption that a student is committed and willing to work and change. Make the assumption that the coach has integrity and wants to facilitate that. Make the assumption that the coach has a valid knowledge base. You still have this fundamental problem. Words and movement don't really mix. A guy across the net feeding balls and talking doesn't communicate to the student in the language of learning which is image and feeling.
Click to expand...

A good teacher will tailor instruction to the student. I don't mean teaching incorrect things but finding out how the student learns and emphasizing those methods vs other methods. Not every student learns optimally the same way. The teacher with the "my way or the highway" is not going to be as successful, IMO.
 
OP somewhat reminds me of one of my clients who is kind of confrontational (ca. NTRP 3.5 - 4.0, business guy, ******** after every point he loses, perfectionistic).
Last time he wanted to work on his backhand slice because in his opinion he never learned a proper slice - floating/high trajectory.
I told him to slice the ball straight into the net. You can imagine what happened: he hit deep balls with a nice, flat trajectory. It took him 15 to 20 balls until he finally netted a ball.
Then we talked about what just happened and how it's in my opinion not a technical but a mental problem. He wasn't happy with my conclusion. Yeah, well, for a guy like him it's obviously not easy to accept errors and lose points due to lower margin for error trajectories. Have to reward him with extra points for positive body language/behaviour after a netted slice or something. Don't think that will change him but it's the only productive thing I can think of in such a (head)case.

I won't lose too much sleep because of him though. Eventually tennis is just one of those 'nice things to have' to him.
 
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DavidGibson said:
Yeah I'm slow, Why don't you clarify it for me? What did I miss?
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Ok, I'll bite. His point was not that feeding balls is *always* useless. His point was that in teaching certain techniques in tennis you gotta do more than just feed balls and talk - you've gotta actually *show* the player with video or hands-on training *how* to execute the stroke. Once the proper technique has been established then some ball feeding is in order. His sentence that "Words and movement don't really mix" was about *learning* the stroke, not drilling it in or improving it through repetition. For some reason that was immediately obvious to me...
 
I came from a racquetball background and picked up tennis seriously a few years ago in my 40s (have watched tennis forever though). Took me one free youtube video lesson to understand to serve holding the continental grip. My serve was a mess, mainly because of my toss. Took a lesson from a HS tennis player. $25/hr...I'm cheap and realistic on what I wanted to get out of it. I just wanted to learn to serve consistently without dinking the ball. He was pretty good and spot on. First thing he did was check my grip. Second thing was positioning correctly. I was sideways but he made sure I turned more sideways. Overall, I thought I got pretty good value out of that lesson. I'm not going to agree that most coaches are bad or cheaper ones are not good. Just like anything in life you'll find good and bad ones. If you're serious about tennis though, one thing I agree with this thread is to not take group lessons. Those are mostly worthless.

BTW...coming from a background where I've coached a bunch of kids at a rec/select level in basketball (albeit as a parent coach with no money involved), it's difficult. In one hour you get so many individuals with varying skills, interest, athletic abilities, strengths, weaknesses. As a coach, I would love to have 1 hr dedicated to fitness training, 1 hour for ball handling, 1 hour for shooting, 1 hour for team offense, 1 hour for team defense. However, all I get is 1 total hour in a week. So the coaching is geared to maximize the efficiency of usage of that hour rather than address all the weaknesses of an individual. If a parent looks at what I'm doing in that one hour, without being in my shoes and knowing my difficulties, they'll probably assume that I am just a poor coach. I'm sure that's the case for a lot of tennis coaches too. It's easy to criticize. IMO, it's up to the individual to work with the coach in knowing and demanding exactly what they want to get out of the session. Also, it's up to the individual to do some leg work too. Not knowing that most folks, not named Becker or Edberg, serve predominantly with a continental grip IMO is not a coach's fault.
 
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mcs1970 said:
If you're serious about tennis though, one thing I agree with this thread is to not take group lessons. Those are mostly worthless.
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Not knowing what the general layout of group lessons might encompass throughout the tennis teaching community I can't agree that group lessons are mostly worthless. Although I did spend nearly 600.00 for a 2&1/2 day camp that was all group lessons that I could have learned more paying that 600.00 to college player who had never given a lesson before for personal lessons. The two coaches I take weekly group lessons from are both D1 coaches. Although the skill set of the group lesson I attend is widespread I get personal attention/correction/reps at my level. I also ask specific question. I help and give encouragement to lesser players who start to "get it" whatever that "it" might be currently. I also learn from seeing what others do right or wrong. Then later when I a hit with the lesser players I try to emulate what the coaches have shown. The good thing about the group lessons I attend is that the focus is almost always on basic fundamentals. I find that the more I focus on fundamentals my whole game blossoms.
 
JohnYandell said:
So make the assumption that a student is committed and willing to work and change. Make the assumption that the coach has integrity and wants to facilitate that. Make the assumption that the coach has a valid knowledge base. You still have this fundamental problem. Words and movement don't really mix. A guy across the net feeding balls and talking doesn't communicate to the student in the language of learning which is image and feeling.
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John,

There's a buddy of mine who is playing a ton of money at his local club for lessons every week. I've been watching him play for years now and there is no improvement in his skills. In fact he doesn't really seem to understand the concepts of tennis stroking. He doesn't even try to get much racquet speed to get much spin on his groundstokes or serve. The coach doesn't seem to address his basic problems. Most of us who know him seem to think he's wasting his money. He even buys expensive racquets from his coach. What do you think?
 
How much does he play outside of lessons? I think you need like a 10 to 1 practice to lesson ratio.. It's like learning the Piano.. you can benefit from weekly Piano lessons. But unless you put in the time and try to learn the pieces outside of the lesson its a waste of money.
 
sureshs said:
A very dedicated coach, who was the head pro at my club, passed away over Christmas. He used to play on the tour. He had absolute commitment to every student, beginner, adult or advanced junior. I attended his memorial service today and over 200 people showed up even though it was raining. It was held next to his favorite coaching court. I never took a lesson from him but have watched him coach many many times because I like to get in a little early before my slot and do some stretching. So you could say I got a lot of coaching for free over the last 11 years! His website is (was?): http://samstennis.com/
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you're quite the active member in the community, I have a feeling you run roughshod over the PTA.
 
JohnYandell said:
Some players who take traditional lessons are able to "translate" words into their own visual pictures and feelings. Others not.
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You might want to repeat the improvement you saw in a player after video analysis in which you found lack of ISR, which was in the email about your latest issue. I think you even had percentage of improvement in mph. I don't have the email anymore.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
@Dolgopolov85



Yup, at release Fed's toss resembles the so-called "ice cream cone" toss. However, when he starts his tossing motion, most of his fingers appear to be underneath the ball (or maybe something between under and to the side). As he lifts the tossing arm it appears to pronate a bit so that his fingers are no longer under the ball at release.

Click to expand...

I thought about your post yesterday, sickanimaly, and tried to start with palm underneath the ball and then pronate, though it was bitterly cold out here (felt a little uncomfortable in shorts LOL but no point rubbing that in LOL). What happened was I ended up putting a little topspin on the ball. (Which incidentally is illegal in table tennis - the palm must be flat at release.) But the topspin kept the ball where I wanted it! Now I need to synchronize my hitting arm with this toss. Right now it has become like an abbreviated serve without fluid motion due to years of tossing one way interfering with new learning.

Maybe it is a whole new innovation in tennis! Using topspin for controlling the tossed ball like you do for the hit ball!
 
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