Why Andy Murray failed to become an ATG

abmk

Bionic Poster
Knew Stan was in 4 finals just had the ones he won on my mind that's all, so shoot me. Forgot about Hewitt playing Fed at USO but he certainly didn't fare better against him there than Murray did. Don't recall Murray getting bagelled TWICE in a single Slam final. So none of my slip-ups actually supported anything you said at all.
So nothing on the point about the AO finals and Becker/Courier/Murray. Simply trying to ignore that because you know you didn't have a proper point to rebutt? Atleast have the decency to acknowledge when someone else is right.
I already mentioned Hewitt's USO 04 final performance was below par. Other 3 were well above average though (including 2 vs worthy opponents - Sampras/Safin)

Shoulda woulda coulda. Fact remains that he didn't win whereas Murray won TWO Wimbledon finals, 1 against an ATG and he did both of them in straight sets. Cry me a river for poor Rodders.
you were the one who brought in shoulda woulda coulda first by saying Roddick missed a chance there, genius
Atleast one can feel sorry for Roddick who put in such an effort and talk about it. Murray's Wim 12 final was a worthwhile effort but quite less so than Roddick's.
Don't feel so when someone plays sh*t like USO 08/AO 11 final or not good efforts like AO 10 final/AO 16 final/RG 16 final
or for that matter Hewitt of USO 04 final/Roddick of Wim 05 final/Stan of RG 17 final

Also if you are so against shoulda, woulda, coulda, fact remains that Murray with 3 slams, 1YE#1, double digit masters, 1 YEC is simply not good enough to be at the level of Becker/Edberg/Wilander greatness wise. Stop saying he would do so much better in other eras then. He would do better in some, but not so much to rise to their level. And do worse if prime co-incided with fed's instead of Djokovic's.


Careful you don't choke on all those smilies. Fact remains that Murray beat an ATG in straight sets in a Slam final. Stan didn't a fact you would undoubtedly have pointed out if it was Stan whose record you like to diss instead of Murray's.
I didn't mention Hewitt straight-setting Sampras at USO specifically, did I?
All I need to say is that the performance was well above average.

Okay, I was a bit hasty again none of which is going to change our respective opinions on Murray's worth one little bit (unfortunately in your case).
of course you won't admit Murray being well above average in only 4/11 slam finals as opposed to 3/5 for Roddick, 3/4 for Hewitt and 3/4 for Stan.
of course you won't admit Murray being even slightly above average in only 6/11 slam finals as opposed to 4/5 for Roddick, 3/4 for Hewitt and 3/4 for Stan.
All you can cry about is competition/ATGs. It doesn't matter much if you don't put up worthwhile performances. You are probably going to lose to other good players in other eras as well with performances like that. A couple of performances like that are understandable/expected, but not as frequently as Murray has if you want to be anywhere near ATG level.

While Murray is overall a superior player to all 3 - Hewitt, Wawrinka, Roddick, its quite clear to anyone who know tennis/isn't so biased that those 3 put up clearly better performances in slam finals on an average than Murray did.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
100% true

Sir Andy used to reach the Semis regularly because the rest of the field wasn't that deep as it was in previous decades but once he reached the semis he ran into the Big 3 and his level was consistently below everyone. That suggests that his peak game isn't high enough to beat anyone. So he would not have won more than 3 slams in any era and if he was 5-6 years younger then he might have retired on 1 or 0 slam due to running into Peak Federer who could be like Unstoppable as well as Immovable at the same time, one has to be really high peak play like Safin/Nadal to take out Federer on his bad day, not happening, Andy even on his good day cannot beat Fed on his bad day.
I think Murray is too good not to win a slam somewhere (has more than enough longevity to wait for a slip from Federer), but he's not getting more than 4 slams in any era IMO.
Anywhere b/w 1-4 slams in any era.

He's not getting to Becker/Edberg/Wilander level (6/7 slams) in any era I know of so far (starting from open era).
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
I think Murray is too good not to win a slam somewhere (has more than enough longevity to wait for a slip from Federer), but he's not getting more than 4 slams in any era IMO.
Anywhere b/w 1-4 slams in any era.

He's not getting to Becker/Edberg/Wilander level (6/7 slams) in any era I know of so far (starting from open era).
Problem is between 04-09 there were no slips from Federer, his level was always very very very high except his Mono illness period and Nadal -Djokovic were there at that time so a Murray in Fed gen would be up against 2 young ATGs and they would thrash him there, only hope for Andy would be win those 2 slams that Hewitt won but I doubt, Hewitt was a teenage prodigy nd too good in those years .... Murray at max wins 1 slam or retires on 0, being on Djokodal age group gave Murray advantage of being 6 years younger to fed and also being physically similar to Djokodal to not being imposed by them physically, this would change if in fed gen, now he would have peak fed, peak Safin, roddick on grass, young Djokodal coming up.....too many challenges that he won't likd growing up in the 90s (possibly with a single handed Backhand)
 

ElisRF

Professional
Time travel matches

1. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Federer Wim 15 final
2. Nadal Wim 11 final vs Murray Wim 13 final
3. Agassi AO 03 final vs Federer AO 09 final
4. Federer AO 09 final vs Djokovic AO 13 final
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Wawrinka RG 15 final
6. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Federer Wim 19 final
7. Roddick USO 03 final vs Nadal USO 13 final
8. Hewitt USO 01 final vs Djokovic USO 15 final
9. Del Potro RG 09 vs Federer RG 10
1. Sight edge to Federer maybe
2. 50-50
3. Federer in 5
4. 50-50
5. Wawrinka in 5
6. 50-50
7. Nadal in 5
8. Djokovic in 5
9. Del Potro in 5
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
Different sorts of players were beating Fed in BO3 anyway, while in slams there was a different scenario and Murray knows it better, as he couldn't do damage to Fed in slams and barely beat him one time, in 2013.
Yes.... Murray was impotent vs Federer in Slams, always has been.
His only win in slams vs Fed is a 5 setter (lol) vs old Fed in 2013 which was one of his worst years on tour, lol

Murray has been pathetic vs Federer despite being 6 years younger, had they been same aged then it would have been a Federer-Hewitt situation .... bagels and double bagels in slams
 
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RS

Legend
Higher level - Add closeness or if equal

1. Del Potro RG 09 SF or Wawrinka AO 13 4R
2. Federer RG 05 or Djokovic RG 11
3. Nadal Wim 06 final or Murray Wim 12 final
4. Hewitt USO 04 final or Federer AO 14 SF
5. Agassi USO 05 final or Federer AO 11 SF
6. Nadal AO 12 final or Djokovic Wim 14 final
7. Safin AO 05 or Djokovic AO 08
8. Federer RG 11 or Federer USO 11
9. Nadal RG 11 final or Wawrinka RG 15 final
10. Hewitt USO 01 final or Federer Wim 09 final
 

ElisRF

Professional
Higher level - Add closeness or if equal

1. Del Potro RG 09 SF or Wawrinka AO 13 4R
2. Federer RG 05 or Djokovic RG 11
3. Nadal Wim 06 final or Murray Wim 12 final
4. Hewitt USO 04 final or Federer AO 14 SF
5. Agassi USO 05 final or Federer AO 11 SF
6. Nadal AO 12 final or Djokovic Wim 14 final
7. Safin AO 05 or Djokovic AO 08
8. Federer RG 11 or Federer USO 11
9. Nadal RG 11 final or Wawrinka RG 15 final
10. Hewitt USO 01 final or Federer Wim 09 final
All of them splitting hairs.
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
Yes.... Murray was impotent vs Federer in Slams, always has been.
His only win in slams vs Fed is a 5 setter (lol) vs old Fed in 2013 which was one of his worst years on tour, lol

Murray has been pathetic vs Federer despite being 6 years younger, had they been same aged then it would have been a Federer-Hewitt situation .... bagels and double bagels in slams
You are too harsh on him :D
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
You are too harsh on him :D
Because I have seen Andy and Stan and know they aren't that special guys who would last in other decades with the same level of performance, when I saw Novak in mid-late 00s I knew this guy would win many slams soon, Nadal we all how good he was moving and hitting early on, these guys are special, Andy wasn't, he could not convert BO3 success to BO5 because he wasn't that great, I often felt that Andy just keeps the ball in play and hopes that he wins the rally, thats his game, such players are never ATG material.
 

GhostOfNKDM

Professional
This discussion seems like its missing a lot of new points that could potentially be made.

Looking forward to the next 36 pages.
 

RS

Legend
I dislike the brand of tennis which he displays, but not Sir Andy the person.
He is a very friendly guy and a nobody can hate him, or even Stan, both are far from arrogant/the trash talking types, they are straight edged.
Yeah I didn’t mean as person but as a player.
 

zaph

Professional
Murray's weakness was always his second serve. For his level it simply wasn't good enough. This put a lot of pressure on his first serve and forced him into a more defensive game to protect his weak second delivery. The moment his first serve percentage dropped, he was in trouble.

Give Murray a second serve upgrade, he wins far more slams.
 

ElisRF

Professional
I think Murray is too good not to win a slam somewhere (has more than enough longevity to wait for a slip from Federer), but he's not getting more than 4 slams in any era IMO.
Anywhere b/w 1-4 slams in any era.

He's not getting to Becker/Edberg/Wilander level (6/7 slams) in any era I know of so far (starting from open era).
Depends on how Murray plays in other eras and his style of play. It is better to just judge Murray based on the era he did play in all this Murray wins this many or that many probably does not work so well.
 

RS

Legend
Time travel matches - add closeness.

1. Federer USO 2007 final vs Djokovic USO 2015 final
2. Roddick Wim 2004 final vs Djokovic Wim 2011 final
3. Federer AO 2005 vs Nadal AO 2009
4. Agassi AO 2004 vs Murray AO 2012
5. Federer RG 2007 vs Djokovic RG 2016
6. Hewitt Wim 2002 vs Federer Wim 2014
7. Murray AO 2012 vs Wawrinka AO 2014
8. Hewitt USO 2005 SF vs Nishikori USO 2014 SF
9. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Federer AO 2017 final
 
Time travel matches - add closeness.

1. Federer USO 2007 final vs Djokovic USO 2015 final
2. Roddick Wim 2004 final vs Djokovic Wim 2011 final
3. Federer AO 2005 vs Nadal AO 2009
4. Agassi AO 2004 vs Murray AO 2012
5. Federer RG 2007 vs Djokovic RG 2016
6. Hewitt Wim 2002 vs Federer Wim 2014
7. Murray AO 2012 vs Wawrinka AO 2014
8. Hewitt USO 2005 SF vs Nishikori USO 2014 SF
9. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Federer AO 2017 final
mythical Fedr in 4 (real Fedr in 5 probably)
boatov1c in 5
featherer in 5 hopefully
Andre in 4 or Mandy in 5
??
Hewitt in 5
Stanimoll in 5
lelwit in 5 probably lol
Joe in 4 or 5
 

ElisRF

Professional
Time travel matches - add closeness.

1. Federer USO 2007 final vs Djokovic USO 2015 final
2. Roddick Wim 2004 final vs Djokovic Wim 2011 final
3. Federer AO 2005 vs Nadal AO 2009
4. Agassi AO 2004 vs Murray AO 2012
5. Federer RG 2007 vs Djokovic RG 2016
6. Hewitt Wim 2002 vs Federer Wim 2014
7. Murray AO 2012 vs Wawrinka AO 2014
8. Hewitt USO 2005 SF vs Nishikori USO 2014 SF
9. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Federer AO 2017 final
1. Federer (I think he raises his game vs 2015 Djokovic)
2. Djokovic in 5
3. even
4. Agassi on RA but Murray on Plexi both in 5
5. even
6. Federer in 4 or Hewitt in 5
7. Wawrinka in 5
8. Hewitt in 4/5
9. Djokovic on the 2015 surface but even on the 2017 surface
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Mainly because I get bored after the first 500 exchanges. ;)
that's what exposed fanboys/sore losers of arguments say many a time ;)
Like I said:
While Murray is overall a superior player to all 3 - Hewitt, Wawrinka, Roddick, its quite clear to anyone who know tennis/isn't so biased that those 3 put up clearly better performances in slam finals on an average than Murray did.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Time travel matches - add closeness.

1. Federer USO 2007 final vs Djokovic USO 2015 final
2. Roddick Wim 2004 final vs Djokovic Wim 2011 final
3. Federer AO 2005 vs Nadal AO 2009
4. Agassi AO 2004 vs Murray AO 2012
5. Federer RG 2007 vs Djokovic RG 2016
6. Hewitt Wim 2002 vs Federer Wim 2014
7. Murray AO 2012 vs Wawrinka AO 2014
8. Hewitt USO 2005 SF vs Nishikori USO 2014 SF
9. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Federer AO 2017 final
Federer USO 2007 final
tossup
Federer AO 05
Agassi AO 04
Federer RG 07
Hewitt Wim 02 probably outlasts Fed of Wim 14
Wawrinka AO 14 in a close match
Hewitt USO 05 SF
Djoko at 15 speed, tossup on 17 speed
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
Time travel matches - add closeness.

1. Federer USO 2007 final vs Djokovic USO 2015 final - Fed in five tight sets
2. Roddick Wim 2004 final vs Djokovic Wim 2011 final - Djokovic in five sets; I can practically picture the score being 6-7 6-2 2-6 6-4 6-3
3. Federer AO 2005 vs Nadal AO 2009 - Fed in five sets
4. Agassi AO 2004 vs Murray AO 2012 - Agassi in 4 or Murray in 5
5. Federer RG 2007 vs Djokovic RG 2016 - Practically a draw, lean Djokovic
6. Hewitt Wim 2002 vs Federer Wim 2014 - Hewitt in 5
7. Murray AO 2012 vs Wawrinka AO 2014 - Stan edges it very slightly
8. Hewitt USO 2005 SF vs Nishikori USO 2014 SF - dunno lol, I didn’t paid close attention to Nishi that match
9. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Federer AO 2017 final - Djokovic in 4/5
 
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