Why are CA gas prices going through the roof?

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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Their motives are the added fuel taxes California imposed to pay for roads and the special blend they legislated that the companies may not want to see become national.

The Republican opposition already attacks the administration on these two grounds, and you can be sure they'll present changes on these two issues as the solution to the problem.

And the gas companies will be happy.


CA does use a special less polluting blend but that does not cut into oil industry profits.
Just the opposite.Industry would be happy to see the nation adapt the cleaner blend, so they can gouge the entire country.
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
Regular jumped from like $3.40 to $4.00 in the course of seven days. Ridiculous.
It is all corruption and profiteering but nothing ever is done about it. Does not happen to rest of the country. ONLY California.
:(

SACRAMENTO, Calif. —
In the past seven days, the average price for a gallon of gas in California has jumped $0.27 per gallon to $4.16, according to the latest AAA Gas Prices data.

By comparison, the national average for a gallon of gas stands at $2.66 per gallon.

Industry experts cite refinery problems and the September attack on a Saudi Arabian oil facility for the increases.

“These factors are continuing the spike that began after the attacks on Saudi Arabia’s oil infrastructure earlier this month,” read a news release posted on the AAA of California website.

However, the price spike in California does not match the price trend throughout much of the country.

Thirty-seven states saw price drops or no change at the pumps over the exact same time frame, according to the AAA data. Five other states experienced increases of a penny or less.

Nevada was the only other state to see a double digit increase over the past week.

Five months ago, the California Energy Commission began a five-month study of whether market manipulation was impacting the state's gas prices. That study and report is expected to be forwarded to the governor later this month.

That's an outrage. It went down here I think to like 2.19 cents. :) I think CA is also the state or at least Oakland or the bay area where they are lots of homeless people that atually work jobs making like 15 bucks an hour because of the prices of apartments. A guy once told me when I was working out there that people don't even buy homes any many cases. They wait for a relative to pass...and that makes sense now why knowing what I know.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
As you remarked before in a related context, the industry would prefer a more national approach.

CA does use a special less polluting blend but that does not cut into oil industry profits.
Just the opposite.Industry would be happy to see the nation adapt the cleaner blend, so they can gouge the entire country.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
CA has a budget deficit and need money for everything! Their roads have lots of potholes too. Plus, they do not want car buyers to buy cars, especially gas powered vehicles. Higher gas prices, they reason will discourage the buying of gas powered vehicles.
 

dgold44

G.O.A.T.
CA has a budget deficit and need money for everything! Their roads have lots of potholes too. Plus, they do not want car buyers to buy cars, especially gas powered vehicles. Higher gas prices, they reason will discourage the buying of gas powered vehicles.

Budget deficit lol

All goes into fake “shell companies “ that then can be accessed by its oligarchy !!
Same as the MOB
 

kramer woodie

Professional
What engineering is that??

The engineering that allows for the manufacture of steel and aluminum without the use of pete coke or electricity. As for solar panels, look at the environmental harm caused manufacturing them and their failure rate needing to be replaced. As for autos, trucks, tractors, and earth moving equipment, look to the steel needed to manufacture them plus the need to replace.

LA's smog problem is a combination of pollutants being carried on the wind from China and produced locally within So. Cal. In the 50s 60s the main pollutant was Lead in the gasoline to stop engine knock. With the removal of lead and the use of catalytic converters the pollution was cleaned up
tremendously. However, the pollution from China still settles in the LA Basin.

In my opinion monies would be better spent coming up with more advanced scrubbers that capture pollutants before they leave the smoke stack or tailpipe. Also take into consideration vehicle costs. A new, news report, stated that finance terms for new car purchases will be extended to eight years. It appears that fewer people can afford a new car and don't forget the cost of a new Ford F150, starting about 58000$.

One last observation; how much lithium is there in the world to produce batteries, which are very environmentally harmful in and of themselves, let alone the cost to replace at failure. Another news article just said a man with a, I believe 10 year old Prius...don't quote me on the age of that Prius, just paid 33000$ to replace the batteries. What happens to the old batteries? Do they get sent to a Mexican junkyard?

Shalom
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
As you remarked before in a related context, the industry would prefer a more national approach.

Not clear on your claim that the oil industry is out to further stick it to CA motorists at the pump? Why?

Yes, CA has imposed additional state taxes on gas, ostensibly to generate more revenue to repair roads. But that should not concern the oil industry.
If anything, jacking up the gas prices further will lead more motorists to abandon their cars (for those few that are lucky to have the option of viable mass transit) and less profit for the industry. And the cleaner costlier blend mandated in CA generates more profit for the oil industry than the cheaper blend the rest of the country is using.

Why would the oil industry target CA? "They want something now." What do they want?

Companies and industries have a way of punishing states for doing things they don't like, so if they are going to raise prices they'll do it there.

They took advantage of international events, it seems, to exert maximum pressure on California. They obviously want something ... now.
 
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kramer woodie

Professional
10 year old Prius hybrid batteries are anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000. You accidentally throw in an extra zero? If not, that guy got ripped off big time.

Mr.Lob

Maybe he got massively ripped or the news media doesn't know what it talks about or the news media deliberately wrote 33,000$. 33,000$ was the printed version.

Shalom
 

kramer woodie

Professional
10 year old Prius hybrid batteries are anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000. You accidentally throw in an extra zero? If not, that guy got ripped off big time.

Mr.Lob

I found the story again. The vehicle was a 2012 Nissan Leaf owned and bought new for 53000$. The owner has complained about the car's battery since he bought it new. The owner is in Canberra Australia. Now the article was in the UK Daily Mail for what that is worth, ha ha.

Shalom
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
There are ppl in CA still using ICE (infernal combustion engines) and buying gas??? Have been driving EVs (leased) for 5 years now so I've lost touch with petrol prices. Quite a few 2019/2020 models, besides Teslas, have ranges of 240 miles or better.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
One last observation; how much lithium is there in the world to produce batteries, which are very environmentally harmful in and of themselves, let alone the cost to replace at failure. Another news article just said a man with a, I believe 10 year old Prius...don't quote me on the age of that Prius, just paid 33000$ to replace the batteries. What happens to the old batteries? Do they get sent to a Mexican junkyard?

That can't be USD dollars. Even larger EV batteries shouldn't cost anything close to that. Modern lithium-ion batts are around $200 per kWh. My current EV has a 30 kWh batt... so perhaps $5k to $6k if I decide to keep this vehicle (after the lease) long enuff to worry about it. The contents of lithium-ion batteries are actually less toxic than most other battery types, which makes them easier to recycle.

https://greencitizen.com/recycling-lithium-ion-batteries/
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ed-what-happens-to-old-electric-car-batteries

For now the world has enough proven lithium reserves. 25th most abundant mineral in the Earth's crust. Lithium can be recycled an unlimited number of times. However, the technology to produce pure lithium for a second use in batteries still needs to be developed.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/availability_of_lithium
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
The engineering that allows for the manufacture of steel and aluminum without the use of pete coke or electricity. As for solar panels, look at the environmental harm caused manufacturing them and their failure rate needing to be replaced. As for autos, trucks, tractors, and earth moving equipment, look to the steel needed to manufacture them plus the need to replace.

LA's smog problem is a combination of pollutants being carried on the wind from China and produced locally within So. Cal. In the 50s 60s the main pollutant was Lead in the gasoline to stop engine knock. With the removal of lead and the use of catalytic converters the pollution was cleaned up
tremendously. However, the pollution from China still settles in the LA Basin.

In my opinion monies would be better spent coming up with more advanced scrubbers that capture pollutants before they leave the smoke stack or tailpipe. Also take into consideration vehicle costs. A new, news report, stated that finance terms for new car purchases will be extended to eight years. It appears that fewer people can afford a new car and don't forget the cost of a new Ford F150, starting about 58000$.

One last observation; how much lithium is there in the world to produce batteries, which are very environmentally harmful in and of themselves, let alone the cost to replace at failure. Another news article just said a man with a, I believe 10 year old Prius...don't quote me on the age of that Prius, just paid 33000$ to replace the batteries. What happens to the old batteries? Do they get sent to a Mexican junkyard?

Shalom
You need better talking points too. Systemic already addressed some of the battery stuff, but as for the solar panels, failure rates are super low, like 5/ 10,000 panels.


They last over 30 YEARS so this whole recycle business is crazy. And in that 30 years they are so much cleaner than a coal plant that even if they were as bad as you say, they are way better than the coal plants they are replacing....
 

max

Legend
The most :
California , NY, Connecticut , Mass, Illinois, Wash , Oregon , Virginia, Vermont

Plus dozens more that are ruled by a one party system

I would rank Illinois higher, dgold, merely on the basis on embedded, imbued corruption as a regular means on intercourse with the state government. I've been given the "ask" so I know my beans here. Corruption-wise, most corrupt. Inefficient as all get out: secretaries making $60K a year and bittching about how underpaid they are, whilst purring on a golden bed of benefits.
 

randomtoss

Semi-Pro
You need better talking points too. Systemic already addressed some of the battery stuff, but as for the solar panels, failure rates are super low, like 5/ 10,000 panels.


They last over 30 YEARS so this whole recycle business is crazy. And in that 30 years they are so much cleaner than a coal plant that even if they were as bad as you say, they are way better than the coal plants they are replacing....
We have had, for some years now, a few solar panels on our roof, half of which we bought for a very low price from our city that was replacing their old panels with new ones (just because ten years earlier they had planned to do it and put the money aside, not knowing at the time how long the panels would last). Well, all our panels work beautifully, including the very old ones from the city, with no maintenance at all! These things are incredibly sturdy.
 

max

Legend
We have had, for some years now, a few solar panels on our roof, half of which we bought for a very low price from our city that was replacing their old panels with new ones (just because ten years earlier they had planned to do it and put the money aside, not knowing at the time how long the panels would last). Well, all our panels work beautifully, including the very old ones from the city, with no maintenance at all! These things are incredibly sturdy.

interesting. do you know if sufficient energy was generated to offset their installation and cost?
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
CA has a budget deficit and need money for everything! Their roads have lots of potholes too. Plus, they do not want car buyers to buy cars, especially gas powered vehicles. Higher gas prices, they reason will discourage the buying of gas powered vehicles.
Where is your citation for the claim that there is a budget deficit?

And the pothole claim too
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
We have had, for some years now, a few solar panels on our roof, half of which we bought for a very low price from our city that was replacing their old panels with new ones (just because ten years earlier they had planned to do it and put the money aside, not knowing at the time how long the panels would last). Well, all our panels work beautifully, including the very old ones from the city, with no maintenance at all! These things are incredibly sturdy.
We had 70 systems go through Hurricane Michael and they all survived unless the house was totaled or a tree fell on the roof. Sturdy indeed
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
interesting. do you know if sufficient energy was generated to offset their installation and cost?
This is a common but misguided question. Its ok for people to waste money on power from the power company (what is the payback on that?) but somehow solar needs to offset their cost?

Said another way would you ask the same thing if he had bought a sturdy car? People spend more per month to own a house or buy a car and leasing both is acknowledged to be not a smart decision but somehow solar is different? Its exactly the same. You put your money toward an asset vs. a liability.

And no I am not saying solar costs more per month. It often doesnt. That said I have clients all the time buy the best panel and pick a 10 year term and choose to pay more per month just be done in 10years or earlier.
 

max

Legend
Nah, my point of reference is energy efficient windows. Not too workable for me. The best way to make this work is to offer the same amount of energy at a lesser cost.
 

randomtoss

Semi-Pro
interesting. do you know if sufficient energy was generated to offset their installation and cost?
I'm not sure. It was the beginning of solar panels and they were expensive. But the goal was mainly to support a new promising technology.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
This is a common but misguided question. Its ok for people to waste money on power from the power company (what is the payback on that?) but somehow solar needs to offset their cost?

Let's assume one conserves and turns off lights when not in use, etc. Where exactly is the waste? One pays for the energy being used.
The next question that must be answered is whether solar offers a more cost-effective solution.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Let's assume one conserves and turns off lights when not in use, etc. Where exactly is the waste? One pays for the energy being used.
The next question that must be answered is whether solar offers a more cost-effective solution.
It does because the money goes toward an asset. It does because the solar gets paid off at somepoint and provides free energy. It does because solar locks in your price of power... it doesnt go up like the utilities. It does because it adds value to the house. It does because it helps the environment.

Here is a link from a solely financial point.

 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Let's assume one conserves and turns off lights when not in use, etc. Where exactly is the waste? One pays for the energy being used.
The next question that must be answered is whether solar offers a more cost-effective solution.
The waste is that you spent money for power. With solar you spend money for an asset that produces power. You can spend the same money but actually own something now. You own nothing with the powercompany
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
That can't be USD dollars. Even larger EV batteries shouldn't cost anything close to that. Modern lithium-ion batts are around $200 per kWh. My current EV has a 30 kWh batt... so perhaps $5k to $6k if I decide to keep this vehicle (after the lease) long enuff to worry about it. The contents of lithium-ion batteries are actually less toxic than most other battery types, which makes them easier to recycle.

https://greencitizen.com/recycling-lithium-ion-batteries/
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ed-what-happens-to-old-electric-car-batteries

For now the world has enough proven lithium reserves. 25th most abundant mineral in the Earth's crust. Lithium can be recycled an unlimited number of times. However, the technology to produce pure lithium for a second use in batteries still needs to be developed.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/availability_of_lithium
The abundance of lithium makes me feel more secure. Now, if we can only get it in the hands and mouths of all the obviously abundant bipolar TTW posters I could then feel very much more secure!
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
Where is your citation for the claim that there is a budget deficit?

And the pothole claim too
H_W may be one of the lithium-poor correspondents on this forum that I have cited just above. California, the fifth largest economy in the world is unlike the other larger free-world economies...it has a very large budget surplus. Jerry Brown was the Bill Clinton of our age in taking a government in serious hock and leaving his successor with a deep pool of black ink. Estimates run from a minimum of $15billion guaranteed to a possible $28-30billion surplus as Newsom operates his first year in office.

California’s greatest possible export to DC would be an executive that can transform the colossal swamp hole budget wise into a manageable wading pool within 8 years of running things under a sound economic plan for the future instead of kicking the can down the steep hill we’re headed for now.
 

max

Legend
Let's assume one conserves and turns off lights when not in use, etc. Where exactly is the waste? One pays for the energy being used.
The next question that must be answered is whether solar offers a more cost-effective solution.

You bring up a GREAT point! Back in the 1970s there were enormous predictions about energy and energy consumption. . . and the USA turned the corner on energy use and obviated all that. Gee-normously! All due to smart use of doable tech, and full review of energy uses.

I shudder when I think what the environment, etc., were like before Nixon's Clean Air Water Act.
 

kramer woodie

Professional
You need better talking points too. Systemic already addressed some of the battery stuff, but as for the solar panels, failure rates are super low, like 5/ 10,000 panels.


They last over 30 YEARS so this whole recycle business is crazy. And in that 30 years they are so much cleaner than a coal plant that even if they were as bad as you say, they are way better than the coal plants they are replacing....

Shroud

Do you mean the coal plants in China, that solar panels are replacing? My understanding is China is building many more coal plants. Or are you talking about the natural gas plants being built in the US and the coal plants being replaced with natural gas?

When, at what age, do solar panel loose efficiency and start to decline in electrical production? Does a solar panel trapping the sun energy (heat) cause more heat to remain in the earth's atmosphere? Would this cause an increase in global warming?

Someday a way will be found to recycle lithium from lithium batteries? What if a way to recycle is never found, what happens to the worn out batteries? Seems to me the same thing was said about nuclear waste. I understand the Japanese would like to dump the radioactive water stored in tanks into the ocean. Also, these ideas remind me of cold fusion, touted by Hollywood in movies. When will cold fusion happen?

How many solar panels would be required to power a blast furnace to produce high grade steel? Plus, how many more panels would be required to power an aluminum plant foundry? Or, how many solar panels would be required to supply the energy needed to power all the arc, tig, and meg welders in the US? O, at least before I forget, when the power goes out in the middle of the night, how many people would be willing to wait for the power to be restored after the sun comes up?

I am definitely not an expert, but as you can see I have a lot of questions. I don't just buy into what the so-called experts say, the experts have to prove to me their ideas don't have unattended consequences long term.

Shalom
 

kramer woodie

Professional
Shroud

Do you mean the coal plants in China, that solar panels are replacing? My understanding is China is building many more coal plants. Or are you talking about the natural gas plants being built in the US and the coal plants being replaced with natural gas?

When, at what age, do solar panel loose efficiency and start to decline in electrical production? Does a solar panel trapping the sun energy (heat) cause more heat to remain in the earth's atmosphere? Would this cause an increase in global warming?

Someday a way will be found to recycle lithium from lithium batteries? What if a way to recycle is never found, what happens to the worn out batteries? Seems to me the same thing was said about nuclear waste. I understand the Japanese would like to dump the radioactive water stored in tanks into the ocean. Also, these ideas remind me of cold fusion, touted by Hollywood in movies. When will cold fusion happen?

How many solar panels would be required to power a blast furnace to produce high grade steel? Plus, how many more panels would be required to power an aluminum plant foundry? Or, how many solar panels would be required to supply the energy needed to power all the arc, tig, and meg welders in the US? O, at least before I forget, when the power goes out in the middle of the night, how many people would be willing to wait for the power to be restored after the sun comes up?

I am definitely not an expert, but as you can see I have a lot of questions. I don't just buy into what the so-called experts say, the experts have to prove to me their ideas don't have unattended consequences long term.

Shalom

Shroud

I just have to add, if solar panels are such a great deal, would it be fair on your part to pay back the US Taxpayer rebates? Seems to me that those who want solar power should just step up and pay for it without using taxpayer monies of their neighbors to finance the purchase. Also, the connection to the power grid should be cut or at least pay a fee every month to maintain the power grid.

As for the extra energy produced by solar, why should power companies be forced to buy it from you a homeowner who can't use what you produce? Instead, the extra power produced is channeled back into the grid for free. The power companies get free energy, reduce their costs, and
pass on those added profit dollars to customers not able to use solar and the electrical plants create less pollution. Everybody's costs go down!!!

Shalom

Shalom
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Shroud
I just have to add, if solar panels are such a great deal, would it be fair on your part to pay back the US Taxpayer rebates? Seems to me that those who want solar power should just step up and pay for it without using taxpayer monies of their neighbors to finance the purchase. Also, the connection to the power grid should be cut or at least pay a fee every month to maintain the power grid.

That is a legitimate question. Shouldn't solar compete in the marketplace. Why must taxpayers hugely subsidize this industry?

The federal government heavily subsidizes the solar industry, and a number of state governments have policies encouraging solar and green energy production.​
The federal government subsidizes solar energy much more generously than other sources of electricity. According to a study by the University of Texas at Austin, the coal industry received federal subsidies of $1.06 per megawatt hour in 2016; the oil and natural gas industry received federal subsidies of $0.91 per megawatt hour; the nuclear industry received federal subsidies of $1.30 per megawatt hour; and the wind industry received federal subsidies of $12.74 per megawatt hour while the solar industry received federal subsidies of $61.31 per megawatt hour.​
Another common policy used by states to increase the supply of solar energy and convince consumers to install solar panels at their homes is net metering. The Solar Energy Industries Association describes net metering as “a billing mechanism that credits solar energy system owners for the electricity they add to the grid.” 38 states have state-mandated net metering systems.​
Sometimes states even require utilities to credit solar customers’ accounts for the full retail price of the power they supply to the grid. This is absurd because the full retail rate includes costs, such as overhead and grid maintenance, that solar customers do not have to worry about. Power companies – and their non-solar customers – should not be forced to purchase unneeded or unwanted power from solar customers, nor should they be forced to overpay for the power that they choose to purchase from solar customers.​
Depending upon solar customers’ production and usage of electricity, net metering may even allow these customers to benefit from the grid without having to pay a dime for it. Obviously, if too many customers freeload, then there will not be enough people to pay to maintain and upgrade the grid.​
Just how important are incentives for the solar industry? Without incentives, relatively few consumers would be interested in investing tens of thousands of dollars in solar panels when it is unclear if the panels will ever save them much money. For example, when incentives were dialed back in Nevada, the solar panel installation industry imploded .​
Because of the intermittent nature of solar energy, reserve generating capacity is needed to supply energy to the grid whenever clouds block the sun. Otherwise, grid operators must cut power to customers or risk damage to the grid. Of course, when power companies must maintain more power plants to provide backup power, consumers are stuck with the additional costs.​
Huge utility-scale solar plants often require the construction of expensive transmission lines to transmit electricity to customers because the plants are often built in remote locations. In fact, building just a single mile of a transmission line can cost millions of dollars. The money spent on these lines might well be better spent upgrading the country’s aging grid, vital parts of which are 40 to 70 years old. Depending upon which source is consulted, the grid is either in need of tens of billions of dollars or trillions of dollars of investment.​
Government mandates and taxpayer-funded incentives for solar and renewable energy should be ended. After all, it is unfair to force poorer consumers and taxpayers to subsidize their wealthier neighbors’ electric bills.​


@kramer woodie , I think you said you have rented out many properties throughout your life. Have you ever analyzed the economics of implementing solar?

:unsure:
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
There are ppl in CA still using ICE (infernal combustion engines) and buying gas??? Have been driving EVs (leased) for 5 years now so I've lost touch with petrol prices. Quite a few 2019/2020 models, besides Teslas, have ranges of 240 miles or better.

Why aren't gas prices dropping given all the adaptation of EV's?
:(
 

kramer woodie

Professional
That is a legitimate question. Shouldn't solar compete in the marketplace. Why must taxpayers hugely subsidize this industry?

The federal government heavily subsidizes the solar industry, and a number of state governments have policies encouraging solar and green energy production.​
The federal government subsidizes solar energy much more generously than other sources of electricity. According to a study by the University of Texas at Austin, the coal industry received federal subsidies of $1.06 per megawatt hour in 2016; the oil and natural gas industry received federal subsidies of $0.91 per megawatt hour; the nuclear industry received federal subsidies of $1.30 per megawatt hour; and the wind industry received federal subsidies of $12.74 per megawatt hour while the solar industry received federal subsidies of $61.31 per megawatt hour.​
Another common policy used by states to increase the supply of solar energy and convince consumers to install solar panels at their homes is net metering. The Solar Energy Industries Association describes net metering as “a billing mechanism that credits solar energy system owners for the electricity they add to the grid.” 38 states have state-mandated net metering systems.​
Sometimes states even require utilities to credit solar customers’ accounts for the full retail price of the power they supply to the grid. This is absurd because the full retail rate includes costs, such as overhead and grid maintenance, that solar customers do not have to worry about. Power companies – and their non-solar customers – should not be forced to purchase unneeded or unwanted power from solar customers, nor should they be forced to overpay for the power that they choose to purchase from solar customers.​
Depending upon solar customers’ production and usage of electricity, net metering may even allow these customers to benefit from the grid without having to pay a dime for it. Obviously, if too many customers freeload, then there will not be enough people to pay to maintain and upgrade the grid.​
Just how important are incentives for the solar industry? Without incentives, relatively few consumers would be interested in investing tens of thousands of dollars in solar panels when it is unclear if the panels will ever save them much money. For example, when incentives were dialed back in Nevada, the solar panel installation industry imploded .​
Because of the intermittent nature of solar energy, reserve generating capacity is needed to supply energy to the grid whenever clouds block the sun. Otherwise, grid operators must cut power to customers or risk damage to the grid. Of course, when power companies must maintain more power plants to provide backup power, consumers are stuck with the additional costs.​
Huge utility-scale solar plants often require the construction of expensive transmission lines to transmit electricity to customers because the plants are often built in remote locations. In fact, building just a single mile of a transmission line can cost millions of dollars. The money spent on these lines might well be better spent upgrading the country’s aging grid, vital parts of which are 40 to 70 years old. Depending upon which source is consulted, the grid is either in need of tens of billions of dollars or trillions of dollars of investment.​
Government mandates and taxpayer-funded incentives for solar and renewable energy should be ended. After all, it is unfair to force poorer consumers and taxpayers to subsidize their wealthier neighbors’ electric bills.​


@kramer woodie , I think you said you have rented out many properties throughout your life. Have you ever analyzed the economics of implementing solar?

:unsure:

Rual_SJ

I rented only one property in my life. However, Yes, I have looked at the costs associated with converting to solar heating and solar electrical generation. In my break down of costs to install both verses my return on investment, I found my monies were better spent having my money making money, because the cost savings from solar did not pay back my investment in a timely manner. My money was tied up for 12 to 15 years before I saw a return on initial investment. My money invested in stocks, bonds, MLPs, CEFs, and Reits most all payed a return in a shorter time frame. I was in some cases receiving interest or dividends monthly instead of just quarterly dividends.

The monies I earned from my investments paid for my electrical usage and more. Today, those investments, pay me to be retired for the last 25 years, plus into the future years I have left, and I should have money left over to pass on too younger generations of my choosing.

As for gas prices going down because of more EV use, three things come to mind. One, even EVs have to have a gasoline motor for safety in range of distance traveled. Two, when less gas is being consumed, the cost for gas production remains the same and the price must go up to support production and make it profitable to be in the refinery business. Three, with less gas tax collected from EV operators, the gas tax must go up to maintain the roadways.

Seems strange to me that EV and solar owners complain it's not fair, when in fact they are dumping maintenance costs for roadways and electrical generation onto those, who might not be able to afford either one.

Shalom
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
@kramer woodie

No gas engines at all in the 2 EVs I've leased in the past 5 years. The range for my 2018 Kia Soul EV is 140 miles. Virtually no maintainance costs. No oil changes. No need to replace sparkplugs, air filters, antifreeze, etc. No smog tests required. Dont even need to replace brake pads since more than 80% of my braking is done with the electric motor (in regen mode). Rotating tires, washing my car and adding window washing fluid are my only up-keep costs.

Paying almost nothing for "fuel" Access to a lot of free fast charging stations so I'm paying less than $30/yr to charge up my EV.

In addition to the long-range Tesla EVs, quite a few of the other recent (2019/2020) EV models are getting better than 240 miles for a full charge.

Other bonuses include the ultra-quiet of an EV motor. And then there is the instant torque. Even a slow EV can put many ICE sports cars to shame going from 0 to 40+ mph. Some Teslas can go from 0 to 60 in less than 3 seconds.

Why aren't gas prices dropping given all the adaptation of EV's?
:(

Have you tried gassing up in or near Fremont? Cheaper than most places in the SF Bay Area.

Calif has a higher % of EVs than other states. Especially metro areas. Bay Area even more so than LA, SD, Sac and other areas.

As gas prices increase, more car owners are tempted to go electric. Right now, the number of EVs and PHEVs in CA/Bay Area is still a fairly small %. In the short run, they are a very minor factor in gas pricing. In the long run, EVs, ride sharing & public transportation (also going electric or hybrid):will have a very significant impact on demand for gas and oil.

Several reasons for high CA gas prices:

It is more expensive to make gasoline in California than anywhere else in the country. Refineries here are only allowed to produce a certain type of clean "ultra difficult to make gasoline," and a lot of refineries aren't able to do that.

Analysts blamed the gas price spike on California refinery maintenance, low national production and global economic uncertainty... California’s higher average gas prices are due, in part, to state taxes and, in part, to environmental standards that limit where the state can source its supply.

www.sfchronicle.com/business/amp/Gas-prices-spike-above-4-in-San-Francisco-and-14498403.php

https://www.govtech.com/fs/transpor...ues-to-Lead-in-Electric-Vehicle-Adoption.html

http://www.ktvu.com/amp/news/ktvu-l...-with-bay-area-leading-charge-in-ev-purchases
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Several reasons for high CA gas prices:

It is more expensive to make gasoline in California than anywhere else in the country. Refineries here are only allowed to produce a certain type of clean "ultra difficult to make gasoline," and a lot of refineries aren't able to do that.

Analysts blamed the gas price spike on California refinery maintenance, low national production and global economic uncertainty... California’s higher average gas prices are due, in part, to state taxes and, in part, to environmental standards that limit where the state can source its supply.

Most of of the above was already factored into the gas prices on September 14 when average CA was $3.40 and national prices were $2.40.
Now, average CA price is $4.16 and national average sits at $2.66!! The refinery issues does not account for the huge differential.
Prices have settled down nationwide, one month after the oil fields explosions. But CA lags behind.
Obvious corruption and price-gouging. There is always an "investigation" by Sacramento and the investigation always leads to nothing being done.
 
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movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I paid $2.259 per gallon at my last fillup.


Lowest price in my state is $2.21. Average is $2.45. -- gasbuddy.com
Massachusetts: $2.19, $2.55 -- gasbuddy.com
California: $3.69, $4.27
Texas: $2.09, $2.29
South Carolina: $2.04, $2.24
Mississippi: $1.99, $2.26
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
CA does use a special less polluting blend but that does not cut into oil industry profits.
Just the opposite.Industry would be happy to see the nation adapt the cleaner blend, so they can gouge the entire country.

If you don't like CA gasoline prices, just move. Lots of people are doing just that.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
If you don't like CA gasoline prices, just move. Lots of people are doing just that.

It is best to try to first address the corruption rather than run away from it. Hope you are not suggesting these prices are legitimate and not suspicious.
"N.H average is $2.21. California average is $4.27". The difference is over $2.
Higher taxes and special formulation and refinery issues could account for $1.
The other $1 is profiteering and price-gouging. The prices in the rest of the country have settled down since the Saudi oil fields attack; but not in CA.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
It is best to try to first address the corruption rather than run away from it. Hope you are not suggesting these prices are legitimate and not suspicious.
"N.H average is $2.21. California average is $4.27". The difference is over $2.
Higher taxes and special formulation and refinery issues could account for $1.
The other $1 is profiteering and price-gouging. The prices in the rest of the country have settled down since the Saudi oil fields attack; but not in CA.

Our prices never went up as far as the bombing goes.

Gasoline is a market and every market is local. There are a few gasoline stations near where I live that charge $2.39. There is one gasoline station on my way to work that charges $2.65. The biggest factors as to price in my general area are: 1) the amount of traffic on the road, 2) the proximity of multiple gas stations in the area. Areas that have multiple gas stations that are easy to get to have the lowest prices. Stations with no competition in high-traffic areas have the highest prices.

Everyone has access to gasbuddy.com. If one station is charging a lot more, then other stations can get more business by charging less. If gasoline stations can charge more for certain circumstances, that is there is greater demand, then they can charge higher prices. What is wrong with that? If your skills are greater than others at work, then you should have a higher salary. We pay for things based on demand and supply.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Our prices never went up as far as the bombing goes.

Gasoline is a market and every market is local. There are a few gasoline stations near where I live that charge $2.39. There is one gasoline station on my way to work that charges $2.65. The biggest factors as to price in my general area are: 1) the amount of traffic on the road, 2) the proximity of multiple gas stations in the area. Areas that have multiple gas stations that are easy to get to have the lowest prices. Stations with no competition in high-traffic areas have the highest prices.

Everyone has access to gasbuddy.com. If one station is charging a lot more, then other stations can get more business by charging less. If gasoline stations can charge more for certain circumstances, that is there is greater demand, then they can charge higher prices. What is wrong with that? If your skills are greater than others at work, then you should have a higher salary. We pay for things based on demand and supply.

The gas stations have little control of the pricing when their suppliers (oil oligopoly) are suddenly jacking up prices. That is the corruption and price-fixing that needs to be looked into. That is the reason for anti-monopolistic laws.

"Anti-trust laws are in place to penalize companies that operate monopolies and oligopolies. These laws are in place to protect consumers, to maintain competition within the market, and to prevent companies from price gouging."
 
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movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
The gas stations have little control of the pricing when their suppliers (oil oligopoly) are suddenly jacking up prices. That is the corruption and price-fixing that needs to be looked into. That is the reason for anti-monopolistic laws.

"Anti-trust laws are in place to penalize companies that operate monopolies and oligopolies. These laws are in place to protect consumers, to maintain competition within the market, and to prevent companies from price gouging."

A lot of people like to blame some unnamed, mysterious company or organization when they're too lazy to do their own research.

There are a lot of pieces to getting gasoline to the end user. Crude oil is the major input and you have oil companies or foreign countries that provide this. It's often purchased on exchanges, so if one company is selling it at a higher price, another company can undercut its price. Those are public exchanges where even you or I could buy a contract for a shipment of oil.

Crude oil is bought by refiners to turn into gasoline and other products. There are many companies in the refinery business. I looked at the financials of Valero Oil, a major US refiner. Their operating margin is 3.51%. The operating margin for Apple is 24.5%. So refineries aren't making a lot of money. I don't think oil companies are either. Oil companies have not had good results in 2019. In fact, quite a few have gone bankrupt because of the low price of crude.

Now California is an interesting place and I guess that the people want to know where their gasoline dollar goes. So the state provides a very nice website showing the component prices of a gallon of gasoline. Breakdowns lag by six weeks so you'll have to wait a little while to see what the cost components are of gasoline for your recent spike.


All you will have to do is see the category where the delta is.

It feels like nobody knows how to do financial analysis.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
With this number of players, I don't see how you could have an oligopoly. One player snitching or making a mistake and all of the other companies pay hefty fines. I don't know whether or not antitrust laws carry jailtime but you'd have to be nuts to risk jailtime if you're a megabuck exec.
gasoline_marketshare.gif
 
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