I’ve quit playing tennis as a result of this along with spending tons of $$$ as former captain sandbagging/stacking teams with 18-20 players for mixed/summer league. There’s no reason whatsoever to have that many people on team. USTA needs massive overhaul on this. As I said before get rid of self ratings. If you’ve played high school/college as well won championships how are you a 3.0s??? That’s ********!!! It’s one of main reasons for sandbagging. Also USTA needs to have cap on teams. As I said before you don’t need to have 18-20 players on either mixed/summer leagues especially mixed when you only need 6 players. Summer it’s only 8. Having that many is just stupid!!! Fees are take it or leave it. Don’t let anyone say it’s just tennis and it’s fun way to get in shape. Again bull ****!!! You need to be in shape to play. It’s a 2nd job and you must be committed 100% otherwise it’s a waste of time.
Why are the number of USTA league players so low?
- Thread starter socallefty
- Start date
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Why would anyone be a USTA member without playing leagues? What else is the point?
Hmm... Magnus looks like he is more athletic than Hikaru, so not knowing anything else about them, I'd go with him.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
That is interesting to me that you have your own idea in your head that conflicts with your actual computer rating. I think everyone having their own idea of what a certain level of play should be is a big part of the problem. This problem is exacerbated by USTA ignoring so much data that would make the ratings better. People have their own idea then they go to post season and then either think the other side is sandbagging or self rating wrong. Transparency in the rating system would go a long way.
For the men that seems true. about 65% of men players are either 3.5 or 4.0. So Obviously USTA ratings doesn't really separate players out much. Can you imagine a chess site that gave 2/3s of all players one of two ratings? I have been rated exactly 3.5 at chess for the past 5 years! I don't think such a site would do well. As Heather from USTA said there are really 100 different ratings within 3.5 to 4.0 separating this bulk of USTA players. USTA just doesn't reveal what those a ratings are because they paternalistically think USTA members will "obsess about a number" or try to cheat to win a trophy.
I am only an amateur chess player but I also used to be a volunteer chess coach for grammar school kids so I tend to know the types of moves beginners make. Did someone move there rook pawn up two as a first move? There is a good chance they are below 1200.
But for anyone stronger than me I would need a computer to be able to guess their rating and even there once you get above 2200 and full time games I probably couldn't tell much from a few games.
Well it's not really that interesting...
Basically a by product of not having separate ratings for singles and dubs. I beat some guys who are purely dubs players at 5.0 but were playing the singles line in 4.5+ 40 and over league.
vex
Legend
Yeah there is like ONE outdoor USTA team in my area against like 20 indoor clubs
am1899
Legend
mikelikesgatorad
New User
Most of the new players, are new players. And someone once said that most 3.0 players have never heard of USTA.
i'd have guessed ladders. way more popular than usta matches i think,
* especially if they are tied to utr ratings.
* play singles (which seems to be most folks preference vs. forced into dubs ),
* elim not knowing if you're being played on any given week
* many tennis players are not really into the team thing
* no captaining needed
* logistics typicaly easier for just 2 people than 10
* especially if they are tied to utr ratings.
* play singles (which seems to be most folks preference vs. forced into dubs ),
* elim not knowing if you're being played on any given week
* many tennis players are not really into the team thing
* no captaining needed
* logistics typicaly easier for just 2 people than 10
Sandbagging is the norm in our league. We have 2 teams notorious for sandbagging and gaming the rating system. I played a 3.5S in a 7.5 combo tournament that is 22 years old and a former college player. Talked with the kid after the match and he was told to self rate at a 3.5 by his captain. USTA is allowing it and it's taking the fun out of it for some players. I don't care, I want to see the best tennis I can but it's not legitimate.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Tennis is just declining and some parts of the country are also declining in population. For an example, if you think sandbagging is making participation decline, Dallas USTA league team competition exploded during covid and after, largest increase of new usta league players in the country, something like 1,000 new league players last year, and sandbagging is rampant in Dallas. However, the area is exploding in population so plenty of people moving to the area to start playing tennis. I'd also say tennis has many older players playing, covid impacted the older population significantly.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I think there is a question of value. I mean, I pay an annual fee to be a Costco member, but I get quality products and good prices, so there is value to me. Some others might not see that value depending on their shopping needs. In terms of the value of the USTA membership, I don't mind paying the team fee and having to travel, but I don't think leagues are supported at all facilities the same and I don't see much of that initial value being put back into the leagues and tourneys. I just searched for tournaments in the next few months and not much going on.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
The numbers of racquets sold and other markers indicate tennis is booming. That is why if USTA is not also booming we might wonder if the old way of doing business is working.
I am not saying USTA is not doing well. Like I said in my area I think it is increasing and it sounds like yours is as well. It may be that it is just certain states are seeing a decline but on the whole across the country, USTA is doing very well. I also think the baby boomers are getting a bit too old and the millennials (the next largest generation) are not yet at the age where people traditionally start joining leagues.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I'm willing to bet post covid restrictions that tennis racket sale spike will deflate quickly.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I predict the amount of money spent on racquets will increase but the number of racquets sold might decrease.
In the northern states tennis costs considerable money to play year round. I would think any sort of economic downturn would hurt tennis. I don't know if that has historically been the case.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
tournaments are a lot better than the dramatics and politics of league play. just read this forum, someone is always complaining about something in league play. That's the point.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
USTA tournaments that are appropriate for most rec players are pretty rare where I live. Without a decent rating system tournaments don't make much sense. You just have to hurry up and wait and possibly play multiple matches in one day. Its just better to schedule a match and not waste so much time.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
I don't know where you live but in DMV we have a decent amount of tournaments. I have not had any problems with the rating systems and they also have age divisions as well. I would rather wait and play multiple matches in one day than deal with incessant politics and drama of league tennis. League tennis is a cesspool of cheating etc. I've played in a tournament that had two players parties and great people. it's a great way to spend a weekend. My weekly tennis is preparation for tournaments. Tennis is a individual sport, not a team sport.
Last edited:
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I'm not saying league play is better. I'm comparing playing in a tournament to just setting up matches with other players you know. But yes if you are happy with the rating system that is good reason to prefer tournaments to just playing matches with other players you know.
Playing for a team just gives you more motivation to try to win, because you want to help your team. I agree there can be added headaches.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
The problem is you never hear about good experiences with league play. Honestly, If you want to play leagues, I would get on this forum. Tennis does not have that team sport relationship where everyone is working together like the obvious team sport. ask the people who don't play tennis their thoughts. I wonder if the other recreational sports have the kind of issues that tennis has?
USTA league is a funny thing to me. My wife has played in women's 2.5 and 3.0 singles and doubles and has seems to enjoy it, even though she mostly loses. I don't know if this is typical of how leagues operate, but in her league, the hosting team is suppose to provide food and drinks, including alcoholic beverages, for the teams to have a "social" after the match. There are so many players on the team, she can't remember all of their names unless they happened to be assigned to her as a doubles partner, or are "good".
For me, I can't get with the idea that travelling long distances to play against some other adults that you have no reason to be nice to, establish a relationship with, and to deal with all of the bad line calls or other forms of bad behavior.
That being said, last year I joined a private tennis and swim club which has about 20 active mens' tennis players in the 2.5-3.5 range. Even though the club has 5 beautiful Har-Tru courts, I noticed that the only tennis being played was 1) clinics and 2) USTA matches. Only occasionally were there people playing with their friends or family. It seemed the problem was that people just didn't want to put the effort, or didn't know how to arrange matches.
So this year, I emailed everyone who was playing USTA (12 players) and asked if they wanted to try an intra-club league that I would organize. I got positive responses from 6 people, and I made a 10-week schedule of both singles and doubles matches. As the weeks progressed, people heard about how fun it was and my roster has grown to 15 players. In my league, after I set the schedule, the players are responsible for arranging the time/date of the match, bring new balls to the match, etc. I have it all written down in the "league rules". I'm using TennisEngine to keep track of the match results, and the players really like trying to move up the ladder.
The biggest difference between the intra-club league and USTA league I think is how much fun it is, while still being competitive. People who are not already friends have a reason to get to know their opponents because their likely to see them again at the club, or play with/against them again. Bad line calls are not a problem because I established the rules (same as the USTA rules) on how to manage them. No reason to sandbag because you don't need to worry about getting pushed out of the league if you win too much. In my opinion, this is the way recreational tennis is meant to be played!
For me, I can't get with the idea that travelling long distances to play against some other adults that you have no reason to be nice to, establish a relationship with, and to deal with all of the bad line calls or other forms of bad behavior.
That being said, last year I joined a private tennis and swim club which has about 20 active mens' tennis players in the 2.5-3.5 range. Even though the club has 5 beautiful Har-Tru courts, I noticed that the only tennis being played was 1) clinics and 2) USTA matches. Only occasionally were there people playing with their friends or family. It seemed the problem was that people just didn't want to put the effort, or didn't know how to arrange matches.
So this year, I emailed everyone who was playing USTA (12 players) and asked if they wanted to try an intra-club league that I would organize. I got positive responses from 6 people, and I made a 10-week schedule of both singles and doubles matches. As the weeks progressed, people heard about how fun it was and my roster has grown to 15 players. In my league, after I set the schedule, the players are responsible for arranging the time/date of the match, bring new balls to the match, etc. I have it all written down in the "league rules". I'm using TennisEngine to keep track of the match results, and the players really like trying to move up the ladder.
The biggest difference between the intra-club league and USTA league I think is how much fun it is, while still being competitive. People who are not already friends have a reason to get to know their opponents because their likely to see them again at the club, or play with/against them again. Bad line calls are not a problem because I established the rules (same as the USTA rules) on how to manage them. No reason to sandbag because you don't need to worry about getting pushed out of the league if you win too much. In my opinion, this is the way recreational tennis is meant to be played!
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Yes, softball, beach volleyball, more problems with sandbagging than tennis.
League tennis is fun, parties, trips, all that jazz, meeting more people than a tourney. Tourneys are more fun though for pure tennis action, so I'm not discounting what you said.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Bravo for organizing that league, that's not easy to do.
But it's the same for USTA, depending where you live. I've met new people if I go to a new city, as an adult that's not that easy to do, I'm not 25 years old anymore.
Then in a place like Dallas you've got 30 some odd teams across the city, you go to a country club, drink cocktails afte or someone brings adult beverages, make business connections with older wealthy guys who can help your career, meet people who might want to go to the US open or Australian open with you, all good things. Of there are around 30 or 35 4.0 teams only 2 or 3 are doing silly things. So, it's not all bad, like most things the good stuff isn't fun to gossip about or post on the forums. Also in mixed you meet bored wealthy country club wives and they, um, tells good jokes!
silentkman
Hall of Fame
I played softball, never had one issue with sandbagging. Most league tennis is not fun with parties etc. people play a match and then go home. if you go to a "good" tournament they have parties etc with serious tennis.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
we live in different tennis worlds.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Oh man, you should see the sandbagging in softball, it's more creative by far than tennis, I'm glad you didn't encounter it.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I'm sure we do.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
it takes guts to organize anything Tennis related. I hope everything continues to go well.
Last edited:
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I think the USTA adult rec tennis should be improved, but I still enjoy playing in it. Assuming it stays as is, then like most of the tennis players in my area, I anticipate I will play in it for a few years then probably decide I had enough.
vex
Legend
Also, no one wants to hear this but the vast majority of those tennis players not playing USTA just suck at tennis compared to current USTA players. And that’s not me insulting them, that’s just a reality. Most of the non USTA players are beginners in their tennis infancy. If USTA wanted to improve it would spend the money to push a gigantic 2.5 expansion bracket. Provide captaining for them. Teach people how to serve and the basic rules. Then let them play. Even 3.0 is too much for most people who are dabbling in tennis for the first time. Now, you might say, well they’re not ready to compete. No, it’s not about competing, it’s about getting them more involved in tennis. Building community connections with other new tennis players. Connecting future teammates. It’s simply an incredible barrier to entry right now for adults finding the sport and if USTA wanted to improve their health they’d facilitate beginners. But USTA is dumb and lacks vision. USTA is riding a slow death at the moment and completely failing to capitalize on the Covid windfall.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
Totally agree with you on this!!! It’s one of many reasons I’ve quit playing. Do you want to win or be social and not care? The reason you play USTA is to win league flights to go to sectionals and possible nationals. I’ve been scrutinized/criticized for being to intense as captain for wanting to win Instead of other peoples feelings? As a Former captain it’s my job to get best lineups weekly to win matches/not worry about other peoples feelings. To many think it’s social fun happy hour. Especially when I win a match they great and if I lose no big deal. Well I totally disagree with as I’ve spent thousands and thousands and thousands of $$$ on lessons. Along with self ratings which USTA needs to get rid of as well setting roster cap. There’s no reason to have 16-20 players on mixed/summer league teams. Your right USTA is dump about this as they need to make massive changes and overhaul. It’s not worth playing anymore because of this and what you and I said. I sooo hope and can’t wait to see USTA die!!!
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Vex
I agree that USTA would expand considerably if they had a bigger 2.5 program for men. If they just used one rating for everyone and bumped the men up about .5 (to be in line with the women's ratings) they would have that and it would also fix mixed doubles and improve their overall rating system.
I don't agree that the players not in USTA are not strong. We don't have a 4.0 league not because we don't have players at that level, but because after a few years the USTA luster wears off and they don't find it worth the time or money. But yes there are more beginners at lower levels that USTA should do a better job getting involved.
I agree that USTA would expand considerably if they had a bigger 2.5 program for men. If they just used one rating for everyone and bumped the men up about .5 (to be in line with the women's ratings) they would have that and it would also fix mixed doubles and improve their overall rating system.
I don't agree that the players not in USTA are not strong. We don't have a 4.0 league not because we don't have players at that level, but because after a few years the USTA luster wears off and they don't find it worth the time or money. But yes there are more beginners at lower levels that USTA should do a better job getting involved.
Do you really think men will ever admit to being 2.5s? I have only heard of women's 2.5 leagues. A 2.5 guy will either claim to be a 3.5 or quit tennis.
If there was a men's 2.5 league, a crowd of other men will show up to ridicule them.
Men love to be 2.5s where I’m from because they kill it in mixed and combo.
Southern probably changed their rules because we had a 2.5(who was a 4.0) playing with a 5.0 at 7.5 combo at sectionals.
You are implying that these men are not really 2.5s but are sandbagging. That should not hurt their ego then. I was talking about real 2.5 men.
Yeah I'm talking about men that win, not losers at 2.5
mmk
Hall of Fame
I played one season of USTA as a singles player. The starting time was 8:30PM, so matches would end around 10PM. For the matches that weren't at my club it was over half an hour to get home, so I didn't get to bed until at least 11, and due to where I was working at the time I had to get up at 4:40 to avoid traffic. That was part of it, another part was playing against guys 20 to 30 years my junior in all but one match, even though I was competitive. Instead I play intraclub matches, and there are enough different players that it doesn't get old. And since I'm not playing USTA, I don't see any reason to belong.
USTA has a lot of competition in Atlanta. We have adult doubles team league ALTA that gets a lot of players and there are 2 internet leagues that offer doubles and singles with flexible scheduling where you have about 10 days to contact your opponent(s) and schedule the match. Is it possible that USTA league participation may be down but overall tennis participation is about the same.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I am switching this discussion over to here because I think it is more relevant here than in the thread that is supposed to be more dedicated to the Utah 4.0 team. I think this discussion belongs here because it seems to me the USTA league structure and rating system does not work for large areas of the country. And so it shouldn't be surprising that large areas of the country have no interest.
Yes I think we do agree on many things including what I think is a healthy approach to USTA.
I think many people prefer being on competitive teams but with USTA's current system, there are only small pockets of the country where that is possible using your approach/philosophy of forming and keeping teams.
It may be that ratings are easier to estimate what someone's "proper" dynamic rating would be in areas where there are many rated usta matches happening. But 9 of the 11 players on my team are self rated and the other team in our league is not much different. USTA does not rate mixed matches which is far more popular so this is all just a mess. Even after this season people will have C ratings but they may still be very inaccurate because with no mixed games counting there will not be nearly enough data to get an accurate rating.
I certainly agree people throwing games is cheating and a violation of principles. But much of the other stuff is going to be very hard to know what you are talking about from my area. For example, lets say someone just got a bump and they have no real reason to think they don't belong at a higher rating but of course because they will likely get beat badly at the higher level and may not even get played or make a team. Is it a violation of principles for them to click the "auto appeal" button just so they can hopefully be on a team with their friends? Or would that be unprinicipled unless they really thought the bump was inappropriate. I find it interesting that people keep talking as if they know what rating someone should have better than the rating system itself.
It seems to me that USTA is explicitly saying it is ok to be out of level when they seem to offer no restrictions on who can appeal:
"YEAR-END APPEALS CRITERIA
- District/Area, Section and National Benchmark Ratings may not be appealed in the first year received.
All others whose rating fall within the appealable range set by USTA National will be granted.
Year-end ratings can only be appealed online through tennislink, see instructions above on how to appeal an NTRP year-end rating."
Does USTA tell people they should not appeal down unless they believe their bump up was inaccurate? Do you think USTA is intending this to be used only for people that really think they belong at the lower level but something went wrong with their rating? Or are they are intending to simply allow people to be out of level if they think they can make it through another season without being DQed? I see very little that suggests that USTA has a limited intent on this rule.
So if you have a self rate will you always refuse to have them on a 4.0 team if you think they would be a 4.01 or higher? Or do you instead think of the DQ mark @ 4.XX (or whatever it is) and if you think they are below that you are fine playing them on your team?
If you find you predicted wrong and see that someone is out of level do you stop playing him so he doesn't get a default or do you just plow through and keep playing him even though it may mean all his games are defaulted as 6-0 6-0 losses? You never think, I probably shouldn't play him on D1 with a lower rated partner, or if you do, you ignore that thought and play him on d1 with a lower rated partner anyway? Have you ever realized a person you played was out of level and offered to count all the matches he played in as defaults before he was officially dqed? Would you only do that if they were a self rate or do you think a principled captain should also do that if someone is an A or C rated player (and let's assume he did not throwing games to get that rating, it is just that for whatever reason maybe based on a small number of matches he ended up with that rating) that is out of level?
Do you think captains that look at TR or get reports from third parties to avoid a DQ are unprincipled?
In my area the ratings are FUBAR because of the limited number of matches USTA rates. But I think the rules generally are so subjective they seem intentionally designed to create ill-will.
To be fair 30 years ago the internet was not what it is now. I can easily see that USTA's staff and financials is completely focused on other things. So it is no surprise at all how you were treated. Of course at our age now we likely understand the importance of financials to organizations better than we did 30 years ago as well. I think USTA wants to keep this whole adult league thing going as a sort of PR thing about how they really do care about tennis for everyone in the USA. But it is clearly just a side show.
Yes I think we do agree on many things including what I think is a healthy approach to USTA.
I think many people prefer being on competitive teams but with USTA's current system, there are only small pockets of the country where that is possible using your approach/philosophy of forming and keeping teams.
It may be that ratings are easier to estimate what someone's "proper" dynamic rating would be in areas where there are many rated usta matches happening. But 9 of the 11 players on my team are self rated and the other team in our league is not much different. USTA does not rate mixed matches which is far more popular so this is all just a mess. Even after this season people will have C ratings but they may still be very inaccurate because with no mixed games counting there will not be nearly enough data to get an accurate rating.
I certainly agree people throwing games is cheating and a violation of principles. But much of the other stuff is going to be very hard to know what you are talking about from my area. For example, lets say someone just got a bump and they have no real reason to think they don't belong at a higher rating but of course because they will likely get beat badly at the higher level and may not even get played or make a team. Is it a violation of principles for them to click the "auto appeal" button just so they can hopefully be on a team with their friends? Or would that be unprinicipled unless they really thought the bump was inappropriate. I find it interesting that people keep talking as if they know what rating someone should have better than the rating system itself.
It seems to me that USTA is explicitly saying it is ok to be out of level when they seem to offer no restrictions on who can appeal:
"YEAR-END APPEALS CRITERIA
- District/Area, Section and National Benchmark Ratings may not be appealed in the first year received.
All others whose rating fall within the appealable range set by USTA National will be granted.
Year-end ratings can only be appealed online through tennislink, see instructions above on how to appeal an NTRP year-end rating."
Does USTA tell people they should not appeal down unless they believe their bump up was inaccurate? Do you think USTA is intending this to be used only for people that really think they belong at the lower level but something went wrong with their rating? Or are they are intending to simply allow people to be out of level if they think they can make it through another season without being DQed? I see very little that suggests that USTA has a limited intent on this rule.
So if you have a self rate will you always refuse to have them on a 4.0 team if you think they would be a 4.01 or higher? Or do you instead think of the DQ mark @ 4.XX (or whatever it is) and if you think they are below that you are fine playing them on your team?
If you find you predicted wrong and see that someone is out of level do you stop playing him so he doesn't get a default or do you just plow through and keep playing him even though it may mean all his games are defaulted as 6-0 6-0 losses? You never think, I probably shouldn't play him on D1 with a lower rated partner, or if you do, you ignore that thought and play him on d1 with a lower rated partner anyway? Have you ever realized a person you played was out of level and offered to count all the matches he played in as defaults before he was officially dqed? Would you only do that if they were a self rate or do you think a principled captain should also do that if someone is an A or C rated player (and let's assume he did not throwing games to get that rating, it is just that for whatever reason maybe based on a small number of matches he ended up with that rating) that is out of level?
Do you think captains that look at TR or get reports from third parties to avoid a DQ are unprincipled?
In my area the ratings are FUBAR because of the limited number of matches USTA rates. But I think the rules generally are so subjective they seem intentionally designed to create ill-will.
To be fair 30 years ago the internet was not what it is now. I can easily see that USTA's staff and financials is completely focused on other things. So it is no surprise at all how you were treated. Of course at our age now we likely understand the importance of financials to organizations better than we did 30 years ago as well. I think USTA wants to keep this whole adult league thing going as a sort of PR thing about how they really do care about tennis for everyone in the USA. But it is clearly just a side show.
schmke
Legend
I personally would do away with auto-appeals.I certainly agree people throwing games is cheating and a violation of principles. But much of the other stuff is going to be very hard to know what you are talking about from my area. For example, lets say someone just got a bump and they have no real reason to think they don't belong at a higher rating but of course because they will likely get beat badly at the higher level and may not even get played or make a team. Is it a violation of principles for them to click the "auto appeal" button just so they can hopefully be on a team with their friends? Or would that be unprinicipled unless they really thought the bump was inappropriate. I find it interesting that people keep talking as if they know what rating someone should have better than the rating system itself.
It seems to me that USTA is explicitly saying it is ok to be out of level when they seem to offer no restrictions on who can appeal:
"YEAR-END APPEALS CRITERIA
- District/Area, Section and National Benchmark Ratings may not be appealed in the first year received.
All others whose rating fall within the appealable range set by USTA National will be granted.
Year-end ratings can only be appealed online through tennislink, see instructions above on how to appeal an NTRP year-end rating."
Does USTA tell people they should not appeal down unless they believe their bump up was inaccurate? Do you think USTA is intending this to be used only for people that really think they belong at the lower level but something went wrong with their rating? Or are they are intending to simply allow people to be out of level if they think they can make it through another season without being DQed? I see very little that suggests that USTA has a limited intent on this rule.
But I think there are a few reasons one can argue for them:
First, the USTA did it as a way to reduce the burden of answering questions or having to field as many manual appeals. If 50% (or any other reasonably significant percentage) of players who feel unfairly bumped up, or that they should have been bumped down, and do an auto-appeal and have it granted, the USTA just avoided having to deal with them. And some portion of the remaining ones won't feel compelled to complain or file an appeal if it is denied.
Second, it is the USTA admitting there is a margin of error in the ratings calculations and it is possible a player that was barely bumped up falls within that margin of error and so could actually be the lower level, so they'll grant an appeal. This is supported by the appeal rules at times (they change periodically) factoring in how many matches a player played and how close to the bump threshold they were. E.g. if you played 10+ matches, you are not eligible to appeal as that is enough that the margin of error is low. But if you played just 3 matches the margin of error is perhaps 0.1 so a 3.59 could appeal down to be a 3.5. But if you played 9 matches the margin of error is smaller, say 0.02 and so you'd have to be within that to appeal down.
Third, and an extension of the second, it is a way for players that may be bumped out of a playing opportunity (a 4.5 bumped to 5.0 and there are no 5.0 flights in their area) that are within the margin of error to be able to appeal down and still participate.
The problem with any of these is that it still allows a player who was deemed out of level, to continue playing at the lower level, in essence it expands the abilities within the level. Instead of 4.0 being 3.51-4.00, it could really be 3.45 (folks can appeal up too) to 4.05, so a range of 0.6 or more instead of 0.5. And obviously it increases the chances that someone manipulating their rating can get down a level, e.g. someone who is really a 3.75 only has to get down to say 3.55 to appeal down, so appeals actual enable and make it easier for sandbaggers to accomplish their goal.
Are there valid scenarios where an appeal is warranted? Sure, but are there really so many of these that we require an auto-appeal system that arguably allows too many inappropriate appeals? I don't think so.
You left out the most important reason: More $$$ for USTA.
Without the ability to appeal, most players bumped up would only be joining teams at their new level. And that's assuming they are not discouraged by going from being a 'winner' to being a 'loser'. It's unlikely they would also play up at the next higher level.
Whereas I would bet that many (maybe even most) appeal players end up playing at both their pre- and post- appeal levels.
More team registrations = more $$$ for USTA. And isn't that the best reason of all?
Maverick13
Semi-Pro
People aren’t playing league because it’s not even real tennis anymore. No third set is ridiculous. Also, having sectional locations that cater to certain teams is also unfair.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
2 full sets and a 10pt tie break works for me. Don't like time limits, cutting singles or having 4 team matches, and if they ever do try to go to fast 4 I am out.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
It's hard to say. I think appeals and DQ's are one reason we do not even have a 4.0 men's league in my area. Women have a 4.0 league because they are happy to be promoted - which I think is the healthy mentality! Men are all just trying to stay at 3.5 or below. So what happens is the lower 3.5's rarely get to play, and if they do they get the sense they are just losing the games for the team. If people just sucked it up and knew they had to play at 4.0 when they got bumped we would likely have a 4.0 team which would not only mean the 4.0 men would be paying but so would more of the lower end 3.5 players.
If you look at the general breakdown you will see that women are more evenly spread out between 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0. They also have 2.5 as well. But for men 3.0 and 3.5 makes up about 2/3s of all the male players. So it is just like a huge shambling jumble of adult rec players that are all over the place talent wise. It is not surprising that there are far fewer men that play USTA then women.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Patzer that I am I thought of knight takes f7 might work but focused on that and did not think knight to g6. But really the beauty is looking ahead to hg (as opposed to taking the bishop) and then you get beyond beauty to legendary status by sacking the bishop on h6 even after it is protected by the knight. I suspect that is some home cooking but still wonderful chess!
I have long been a fan of the game even though I am not that good at it. I like to occasionally go to the Sinquefield cup and watch the best in the world. If any tennis fans are also chess fans I would be happy to meet you there for some chess or tennis.
I have long been a fan of the game even though I am not that good at it. I like to occasionally go to the Sinquefield cup and watch the best in the world. If any tennis fans are also chess fans I would be happy to meet you there for some chess or tennis.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Check out Agadmator's channel - awesome analysis of top matches.
antony
Hall of Fame
i didn’t renew my membership having moved to a more remote area without USTA presence. Also didn’t renew UTR either for the same reason.
NTRP_3.75_Patrick_Rafter
Rookie
As far as the first point goes good.
As for the second, unless you're out there acting like the maniac lovechild of Ilie Neastace and John McEnroe (Jeff Tarango?) I think you'll be good.
Similar threads
