Why are there more double bagels in women's tennis?

I just wonder why: Is it because of disparity in the quality of the different players or is there a component of honor (or lack thereof) as well?

I've sometimes seen Nadal concede a game to the other player and end up winning 6-0 6-1 or 6-0 6-0 6-1. He doesn't like to humiliate his opponents.

Apart from the Berdych-Goffin match I can't even remember any more double (or triple) bagels on the men's side. On the other hand, there have been multiples double bagels handed out on the women's side.

Why do you think it is?
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Serves are easier to break in women's tennis even when the women are serving well. If they are having an offday on serve and the other is playing well, a bagel or two is very likely.
This is the answer.

Or said another way, on the ATP tour, even a terrible low-ranked player having a bad day can find a way to hold serve at least once against the best players in the world.
 

Lukhas

Legend
Have you got any statistics to support or your claim, or is this just a "feeling" you have on the matter?
You could check out Tennis-Abstract. The best three female servers this year (minus Serena) are Osaka, Barty and Brady. Osaka has a 52.5% 1st serves in, wins about 63.5% of her points on serve and holds about 80% of the time. She also wins a bit above 50% of her 2nd serve points, which is pretty common on both tours. Not even Benoît Paire has a 1st serve in percentage that low (53% and his serve sucks for his height), and there only are 16 charted men with less than 60% 1st serves in, and a bit less than 30 that don't hold serve about 80% of the time. Brady has a 54% 1st serve in this year, Barty about 60%.

On the flip side, those three best WTA servers tend to have a good 30% of their serves that are unreturned. The profile of a good female server isn't so much a very accurate one, but a very aggressive one; then its 50-50 on the second serve.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Navratilova was once double bageled by Evert in a tournament final - WTA is weird with respect to bagels.
Evert also double bageled Tracy Austin in the Tour Finals. I think she's the player that handed out the most 6-0 sets during a career.
I think with the women, it does come down to the serve - less likely to get a cheap game.
 

TimHenmanATG

Hall of Fame
You could check out Tennis-Abstract. The best three female servers this year (minus Serena) are Osaka, Barty and Brady. Osaka has a 52.5% 1st serves in, wins about 63.5% of her points on serve and holds about 80% of the time. She also wins a bit above 50% of her 2nd serve points, which is pretty common on both tours. Not even Benoît Paire has a 1st serve in percentage that low (53% and his serve sucks for his height), and there only are 16 charted men with less than 60% 1st serves in, and a bit less than 30 that don't hold serve about 80% of the time. Brady has a 54% 1st serve in this year, Barty about 60%.

On the flip side, those three best WTA servers tend to have a good 30% of their serves that are unreturned. The profile of a good female server isn't so much a very accurate one, but a very aggressive one; then its 50-50 on the second serve.
This doesn't tell us anything about the probability of a "double bagel" occurring in a WTA in comparison to the ATP.
 
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Sudacafan

Talk Tennis Guru
I just wonder why: Is it because of disparity in the quality of the different players or is there a component of honor (or lack thereof) as well?

I've sometimes seen Nadal concede a game to the other player and end up winning 6-0 6-1 or 6-0 6-0 6-1. He doesn't like to humiliate his opponents.

Apart from the Berdych-Goffin match I can't even remember any more double (or triple) bagels on the men's side. On the other hand, there have been multiples double bagels handed out on the women's side.

Why do you think it is?
They have more experience in baking?
 

Lukhas

Legend
This doesn't tell us anything about the probability of a "double bagel" occurring in a women's match in comparison to a men's.
It does tell you that it means that every other woman serves worse than that on average (or return way better than men, your choice). I can let you draw the conclusions on what happens when someone happens to have a Dementieva-day out there, like Swiatek's drubbing of one of the best servers on tour in Karolina Pliskova in Rome this year: Pliskova just had a 50% 1st serve in percentage that day when she usually is more in the upper 60s.
 

mahesh69a

Semi-Pro
Some data points from Slam Finals (All of Open Era)

Tournament FinalsATP SetsATP BagelsATP % BagelsATP BreadsticksATP % BreadsticksWTA SetsWTA BagelsWTA % BagelsWTA BreadsticksWTA % Breadsticks
AO19631.53%136.63%12586.40%97.20%
RG197115.58%3216.24%12786.30%1612.60%
W20121%167.96%12375.69%1613%
UO20494.41%167.84%12443.23%1814.52%

I think it all comes down to the effectiveness of first serve - thus the high number of bagels/breadsticks in RG even on the ATP side. That also leads to the higher percentages on the WTA side.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
Women, you're doubtless aware, have a cyclicity to their biology that men don't. Premenstrual symptoms can include joint pains and impaired concentration, certainly hindrances to fine tennis, and heavy periods can exacerbate the mild anemia many premenopausal women have. So some sub-par days are more likely for the women.
 

socallefty

Legend
Serves are easier to break in women's tennis even when the women are serving well. If they are having an offday on serve and the other is playing well, a bagel or two is very likely.
It is hard to bagel or double bagel someone if they have a good serve as they will hold serve at least once or twice in a set even when they are being badly outplayed. Since the WTA has weaker servers on average with breaks of serve being much more common in general, it makes sense that WTA bagels happen a lot when one player is being outplayed. It is analogous to the fact that it is tougher to bagel Federer (only 4 times in career) than Nadal (15) or Djokovic (10) even though he has played almost 30% more sets in his career.

 

NADALalot

Hall of Fame
Men's serves are more stable and produce more aces/unreturnables, so even if you are dominating its harder to break serve regularly.
And if a man is playing poorly off the ground he can still hold serve once in a set if he's serving solidly.
Women play more rallies than men, so if the woman is playing poorly off the ground she may be broken easily.
 

Sudacafan

Talk Tennis Guru
Women, you're doubtless aware, have a cyclicity to their biology that men don't. Premenstrual symptoms can include joint pains and impaired concentration, certainly hindrances to fine tennis, and heavy periods can exacerbate the mild anemia many premenopausal women have. So some sub-par days are more likely for the women.
OK, in spite of all that advantages we are given, we will never win an argument against them.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
OK, in spite of all that advantages we are given, we will never win an argument against them.
Was at a wedding last night and one speech offered this advice to the groom about his notoriously headstrong bride:
1) always let her feel like she wins
2) always let her win
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Its easier to get a bagel if your opponent is landing only 40% of her first serves and then spraying 20-30 UEs all over the place on top of it. I think in the Ladies game there is more correlation to Serve breakdown-overall game breakdown.
 

Oval_Solid

Semi-Pro
because sometimes a women has to play a tournament during the time of month where she has her thing to deal with
so basically its like an injury but she cant state it as an injury and pull out even though she can have blood lost maybe cramps headaches emotional issues etc
thats basically why there are more lopsided score on the womens tour
well just imagine if men have to go through something like that each month you would see alot of inconsistent play too
 
Pretty sure it's just a case of the Men's serves outweighing the returns of their peers by a larger margin on aggregate than on the women's side. Hence a male player (#MuryGOAT) is much more likely to sneak at least a breadstick onto the board with one of their service games, even if they are clowning up a stink on the day.
 
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