Why can't the USTA grasp the concept of the fiscal year?

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Or even the calendar year?

Ok, all Nationals are in November.

Ratings come out December 15.

Shouldn't you be able to work with that?

Don't have a league that starts before January or ends after October?

What's so difficult about that?

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Example:

In my area men's 18+ and 40+ run concurrently Mayish through Julyish, Sectionals in August.

In the adjacent region 18+ is the same time as us but 40+ runs September through December so they are starting a 2019 league this month.

So in 2017 the 40+ team from my region wins sectionals and goes to Nationals.

But wait, there's more. These rocket surgeons decide since the season is about to start in the adjacent region let's take the dream team over there and keep playing so we get to practice for nationals and maybe even go to sectionals next year.

They predictably wreck the field in the adjacent region and in the middle of the season have a fair showing at Nationals.

Now their 2018 season is over before 2018 ratings come out.

2018 ratings come out and half their team gets bumped.

The second place team also had several bumps.

Now nobody from that region went to sectionals.

J
 
A bunch of ringers got together and formed a super team.

They were better than all the teams they played, so they beat everyone.

They enjoyed beating everyone so much that they decided to do it again.

The evil usta decided to snuff out the fun.

Bump!

The end.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
A bunch of ringers got together and formed a super team.

They were better than all the teams they played, so they beat everyone.

They enjoyed beating everyone so much that they decided to do it again.

The evil usta decided to snuff out the fun.

Bump!

The end.
The evil USTA allowed the super team to prevent one of the 5 other teams from going to sectionals...

J
 

iNeverSlice

New User
Example:

In my area men's 18+ and 40+ run concurrently Mayish through Julyish, Sectionals in August.

In the adjacent region 18+ is the same time as us but 40+ runs September through December so they are starting a 2019 league this month.

So in 2017 the 40+ team from my region wins sectionals and goes to Nationals.

But wait, there's more. These rocket surgeons decide since the season is about to start in the adjacent region let's take the dream team over there and keep playing so we get to practice for nationals and maybe even go to sectionals next year.

They predictably wreck the field in the adjacent region and in the middle of the season have a fair showing at Nationals.

Now their 2018 season is over before 2018 ratings come out.

2018 ratings come out and half their team gets bumped.

The second place team also had several bumps.

Now nobody from that region went to sectionals.

J
Thats not exactly how it all happened...
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
Example:

In my area men's 18+ and 40+ run concurrently Mayish through Julyish, Sectionals in August.

In the adjacent region 18+ is the same time as us but 40+ runs September through December so they are starting a 2019 league this month.
J
Doing the same thing here in my Section. Putting all the advancement issues aside, just in terms of the day-to-day, another issue is by only running 40+ flights Sept-Dec, the 18+ folks have nowhere to play...so they remedy this by also running combo teams (which are 18+), but they are non-advancing and those matches *do not* count towards NTRP rating. I actually agree more with the combo product offering, a) as a way to keep people engaged thru the fall, and b) to protect against the very scenario you describe w/ people getting bumped out of the flight they just achieved.

Kinda related, and referencing the earlier thread about the NTRP Annual singles tourney/progression, in writing this I just realized they are applying the same logic in a completely opposite way:

In the adult leagues, by starting the 2019 season early, but counting the matches toward NTRP rating, a player may be bumped *out* of the level he just achieved/advanced with, and therefore *not* get to play with his team at the previous level thru the progression,

HOWEVER

In the singles NTRP tourney progression, the same player can get bumped up, but then *still play* in the NTRP championship tourney in April *at the level he got bumped out of*.

Can anyone explain what I'm missing here?
 

iNeverSlice

New User
The team that won in 2017 and went to nationals was different than the team that decided to join the adjacent region.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
So you are saying my region is doing it right?
40+ Jan - early March, Sectionals in August
18+ late March - early June Sectionals in August
League that counts for nothing: June-August (does not count towards ratings nor advances)
Non-advancing league that does count towards ratings Sept - early December
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Couldn't we just do one little bit longer team season durning prime months at the start of the year, have a playoff in the prime months towards the end of the year, then pass out ratings at the end of the year based on all that? I mean, that cuts down on all this playoff $$$ opporuntiites for the USTA, but to me would give teams more opprotunity to compete and practice.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I agree it is all confusing and can cause strange situations, but alas every section has different needs/drivers/competition and the USTA leaves it up to sections to determine when/how to run their leagues and allows for early start leagues.

For example, as I understand it, in Atlanta/Georgia, ALTA is huge and is played in the Winter/Spring. If the USTA tried to put all their leagues up against ALTA then, their participation numbers would go down, so USTA leagues in Georgia are run in the prior Fall and even Summer so they aren't competing with ALTA and can draw a larger number of players.

Or in cold weather sections, a lot of play is indoors but there isn't court capacity to run all the leagues starting in January, and with Nationals in the Fall, there is a gap in the league schedule meaning courts are available then, so several leagues are run as early start leagues.

Or in hot sections like Arizona, they want to get play in through Sectionals by the late Spring and rather than cram a bunch of leagues in parallel they do some as early start.

Now, beyond these arguably legitimate reasons for early start leagues, some sections do have gratuitous additional advancing leagues run as early start which just confuses things more and gives teams two shots to make playoffs, and once they made it in one season can use the other season to practice or manage ratings or keep another team out of playoffs, etc. These sorts of duplicate leagues and scheduling would seem to go beyond the reasons noted above and are just ways for a section to [choose from one of these] (offer more playing opportunities for players) / (rake in more league fees).
 
Perhaps the USTA needs to do a radical change and not lump everyone in the same time span. This can be accomplished by having ratings based on age demographics. Ex: Play in 40 & Over, 75% of your 40 & Over rating is derived from play in that group with 25% coming from other Adult league types. Run this June 1 - April. Have nationals in March & April. Keep 18 & 55 on the January - November schedule. A month is lost in both examples for that would be when new ratings come out for those age groups and team formation needs time to acquiesce. Weighting the ratings also can make more people relevant at athletically tougher divisions.

As USTA has realized gold is to be found in participation and not unique numbers, increasing ways to get more people playing even more would be good for their coffers.
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Perhaps the USTA needs to do a radical change and not lump everyone in the same time span. This can be accomplished by having ratings based on age demographics. Ex: Play in 40 & Over, 75% of your 40 & Over rating is derived from play in that group with 25% coming from other Adult league types. Run this June 1 - April. Have nationals in in March & April. Keep 18 & 55 on the January - November schedule. A month is lost in both examples for that would be when new ratings come out for those age groups and team formation needs time to acquiesce. Weighting the ratings also can make more people relevant at athletically tougher divisions.

As USTA has realized gold is to be found in participation and not unique numbers, increasing ways to get more people playing even more would be good for their coffers.
Interesting idea. What if they split mixed and m/w nationals to different times of the year. Mixed rating would come out after men's and women's if you only played mixed, wouldn't matter though because they would still be out before mixed season.

@schmke potential pitfalls?

J
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Perhaps the USTA needs to do a radical change and not lump everyone in the same time span. This can be accomplished by having ratings based on age demographics. Ex: Play in 40 & Over, 75% of your 40 & Over rating is derived from play in that group with 25% coming from other Adult league types. Run this June 1 - April. Have nationals in in March & April. Keep 18 & 55 on the January - November schedule. A month is lost in both examples for that would be when new ratings come out for those age groups and team formation needs time to acquiesce. Weighting the ratings also can make more people relevant at athletically tougher divisions.

As USTA has realized gold is to be found in participation and not unique numbers, increasing ways to get more people playing even more would be good for their coffers.
Interesting idea. What if they split mixed and m/w nationals to different times of the year. Mixed rating would come out after men's and women's if you only played mixed, wouldn't matter though because they would still be out before mixed season.

@schmke potential pitfalls?

J
Well, Mixed ratings already seem to be second tier in that they are only calculated if you only play Mixed, and even then I don't think are given the rigor that Adult ratings are given, so in a way, it already doesn't matter when Mixed is played. The only real issue with having the season at a different time of year is what to do with players whose Adult rating changes mid-Mixed?

FWIW, my section in most districts does have 18 & Over Mixed as an Early Start League and keeps the 18 & Over and 40 & Over Adult all in the calendar year. Now, it also has 55 & Over Adult as an ESL. But both of these are combo leagues (7.0, 8.0, 9.0, ...) so a team can absorb some bumps up at year-end as the 3.5 on a 7.0 team is still eligible to play as a 4.0 on that same team, just with a different partner. Not perfect, but better than the 3.5 on a 3.5 team who now can't play at all once bumped up to 4.0.
 
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