Why Couldn't Agassi Read Pete Sampras' Serve?

[Nostradamus]

Agassi at least had a rivalry with Sampras. Sampras used to destroy clay court minded players returning from way back. A journeyman like Muller could beat Nadal even with today's tech at Wimbledon by punishing him for standing back. In the fast conditions of the 90s, players standing back would have had no chance.

Disagree. in today's game, you can stand by the fence and still hit or rip topspin returns deep or short if they come in. You have more time to hit big returns and Modern day rackets to do it with.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Disagree. in today's game, you can stand by the fence and still hit or rip topspin returns deep or short if they come in. You have more time to hit big returns and Modern day rackets to do it with.

And Sampras/Agassi was playing with today's racquets? What's your point here?

 

[travlerajm]

Andy Roddick probably had the best 2nd serve of his generation.

Between the two of them Pete Sampras was definitely more prone to double faulting. (As Roddick would frequently finish matches with fewer than 2 of them.)

However, Pete also used his 2nd serve differently and could even win games against top players with just the second serve alone.

In my opinion, what truly separate Sampras from a player like Roddick was Pete's ability to volley.

This match really illustrates the differences in their games:

This match was older, fatter, slower Sampras at his best!

 

[Pistol10]

There are even people here who say he served 120 mph on average on second serve against federer in 2001!

Not correct.

I tried to upload the video on youtube, but was deleted because of copywriting issue...complain was by Wimbledon.

 

[Pistol10]

This match was older, fatter, slower Sampras at his best!

Imagine the young fresh legs Pete (93-97) was using this racket instead of the PS85 St.Vincent...What would be the speed of his serve & his game in general?!!!!!!

As a user of ps85 (late Taiwan, early chinese that's used by Fed), and as advance player, I do believe that the most impressive thing about Pistol Pete that fans don't understand is his racket!
400g strung weight.
Around 400 swingweight.
Even balanced (zero balance point)
85" head size. Very small sweet spot.
Very harsh racket...arm breaker!

Still, never had any arm/wrist injury....GOD BLESS.

 

[Pistol10]

Sorry. Double post.

 

[CHillTennis]

Agassi should have stood way back by the fence to return serve of Sampras but his Ego wouldn't allow that. yes, you do open yourself up to the wide out slice serve ace but % saids you do get more looks at the driving return against big servers like Sampras when you can't read their serve.

That type of returning style wasn't really in Andre's repertoire.

His father had trained him (from an early age) to crowd the baseline as much as possible.

Andre was at his best when he was inside the baseline, taking the ball early, and ripping it back on a wicked angle.

If he had elected to stand further back on the return, it would have made it that much easier for Pete Sampras to get up to the net.

Also, Andre lacked the mobility of a player like Roger Federer or Novak Djokovic.

He needed to be able to cut off Pete's wide slice (which was especially lethal on the deuce side.)

Agassi at least had a rivalry with Sampras. Sampras used to destroy clay court minded players returning from way back. A journeyman like Muller could beat Nadal even with today's tech at Wimbledon by punishing him for standing back. In the fast conditions of the 90s, players standing back would have had no chance.

Agreed! Although Nadal returned better on grass 10 years ago. He peaked on that surface in 2008 and has been declining ever since.

 

[metsman]

You guys need to distinguish between serve and server. Andy Roddick was a far greater server than Sampras. Who had the better serve is debatable, but not who served better. Roddicks first serve procentage, despite serving huge, were far greater than Pete's. 65% compared to 59 for A-Rod. Furthermore, Roddicks great second serve with that amazing kick was much safer to get in than Sampras second serve, which was basically a calculated gamble. Sampras had a a lot of double faults to boot.

However, if we only judge their serves from a technical basis, then Sampras do appear to have a greater disguise than Roddick. We know this because the serves Sampras fired away were much slower, yet aced a ton.. They had good placement too, but primarily disguise.

hmmm it's almost like Roddick played with strings that allow you to impart a lot more spin on your serve thus allowing you to keep more of them in and double fault less. But no, that's impossible.

 

[CHillTennis]

http://www.tennislive.net/atp/match/andre-agassi-VS-ivo-karlovic/us-open-new-york-2005/ back in 2005 at the U.S Open Agassi played Karlovic and won 7-6, 7-6, 7-6 and according to this source he was aced 30 times in this match and only had 1/11 break points with a return percentage 32%.

I guess he returned well at opportune times to get the win against this big server but he did struggle against his serve, once it did get into play I'm sure he was able to dictate rallies because Ivo K. can't rally for very long.

I remember that one.

It was a very interesting second round match and a dangerous one for Andre.

His returning skills were on full display here:

What made the difference was Karlovic's backhand. He was vulnerable on that side and Agassi went after it on critical points.

 

[Pistol10]

His father had trained him (from an early age) to crowd the baseline as much as possible.

Andre was at his best when he was inside the baseline, taking the ball early, and ripping it back on a wicked angle.

Taking the ball on the rise was a game changer. Recently, coaches started teaching that instead of going into a long rally with someone as Nadal... that's hurt Rafa a lot!

 

[Tshooter]

Yup, but that's true of most top 100 players. Jaime Yzaga anyone?

I liked his game. I was lucky to be courtside when he upset Sampras at the 1994 USO. It was a very exciting match. I have a warm spot for any player I saw in person involved in a classic match.

Why does the ATP site list him as "Right-Handed, Unknown Backhand" ? He had a 1HB. Why is this a mystery to the ATP ?

 

[Tshooter]

Taking the ball on the rise was a game changer. Recently, coaches started teaching that instead of going into a long rally with someone as Nadal... that's hurt Rafa a lot!

McEnroe (and others) were taking the ball on the rise when Agassi was a little kid.

 

[Pistol10]

McEnroe (and others) were taking the ball on the rise when Agassi was a little kid.

Yes I know, but not in the aggressive way that Agassi did. And remember, Agassi was playing in modern game, while in the 80s & 70s the pace was very slow.

 

[WestboroChe]

Yes I know, but not in the aggressive way that Agassi did. And remember, Agassi was playing in modern game, while in the 80s & 70s the pace was very slow.

Yeah macs shots were more like half volleys. But Agassi used the OS racquet to really wail in those balls that would normally push guys back. Pete was just too much pace and nerves to overcome most of the time though.

 

[Pistol10]

Yeah macs shots were more like half volleys. But Agassi used the OS racquet to really wail in those balls that would normally push guys back. Pete was just too much pace and nerves to overcome most of the time though.

No, don't get me wrong. I never compared between different eras, I do understand the differences in equipments and the effects of the game style, I'm a user of PS85 (late taiwanese), so I know that many things you do with a midplus or oversize head rackets, hard to do with midsize. I always tried to educate this to those young (mostly) members here when they say something like: Mc or Sam have a bad backhand... Shouldn't they try to swing ~400g midsize racket first ! I even made a thread about it, I guess was stupid one :
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-evaluation-of-tennis-the-big-4.630440/


I'm just saying he's the one who used it in that way, making it his playing style.

 

[Tshooter]

Yes I know, but not in the aggressive way that Agassi did. And remember, Agassi was playing in modern game, while in the 80s & 70s the pace was very slow.

McEnroe who constantly hit on the rise to approach the net was less aggressive than baseline Agassi. Ok. Thanks.

 

[Pistol10]

McEnroe who constantly hit on the rise to approach the net was less aggressive than baseline Agassi. Ok. Thanks.

The RETURN of Agassi is more aggressive. The return of McEnroe (mostly the backhand) was more like a half volley, as what WestboroChe mentioned & explained:

Yeah macs shots were more like half volleys. But Agassi used the OS racquet to really wail in those balls that would normally push guys back. Pete was just too much pace and nerves to overcome most of the time though.

 

[CHillTennis]

No, don't get me wrong. I never compared between different eras, I do understand the differences in equipments and the effects of the game style, I'm a user of PS85 (late taiwanese), so I know that many things you do with a midplus or oversize head rackets, hard to do with midsize. I always tried to educate this to those young (mostly) members here when they say something like: Mc or Sam have a bad backhand... Shouldn't they try to swing ~400g midsize racket first ! I even made a thread about it, I guess was stupid one :
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-evaluation-of-tennis-the-big-4.630440/

It really is amazing that Pete Sampras was able to win the 2002 US Open with an early graphite racquet from the 1980s.

To my knowledge, he never used anything other than natural gut.

I think if he'd decided to stay on the tour (for a few more years) he would have needed to update the racquet.

 

[Pistol10]

It really is amazing that Pete Sampras was able to win the 2002 US Open with an early graphite racquet from the 1980s.

To my knowledge, he never used anything other than natural gut.

I think if he'd decided to stay on the tour (for a few more years) he would have needed to update the racquet.

He didn't play in USO 2002 with his famous racket, the Pro Staff 85 made in st.vincent in 80s, he used a different racket that year, called K Factor 88.

But what amazed me that he won the tournament defeating Hass (no.3), Reddick (in straight sets) while he was far a way from being in a good shape....FAT & SLOW!!!

Not sure if he tried to use different strings other than Nat Gut 18g @75lbs.

 

[TnsGuru]

He didn't play in USO 2002 with his famous racket, the Pro Staff 85 made in st.vincent in 80s, he used a different racket that year, called K Factor 88.

But what amazed me that he won the tournament defeating Hass (no.3), Reddick (in straight sets) while he was far a way from being in a good shape....FAT & SLOW!!!

Not sure if he tried to use different strings other than Nat Gut 18g @75lbs.

I don't think he played with the K Factor 88 because he was already retired when they produced that racket. 2008-9 I believe? He retired in 2003. He was very stubborn about his equipment and wasn't willing to change, even though he contemplated change, he never went with a bigger headed racket. Who knows, if he would have changed like Federer did he may have extended his career a few more years

 

[Pistol10]

@CHillTennis My mistake, he used the Pro Staff 85 at USO 2002 as what you've said.

My apology.

 

[CHillTennis]

I don't think he played with the K Factor 88 because he was already retired when they produced that racket. 2008-9 I believe? He retired in 2003. He was very stubborn about his equipment and wasn't willing to change, even though he contemplated change, he never went with a bigger headed racket. Who knows, if he would have changed like Federer did he may have extended his career a few more years

Roger Federer was also very reluctant to change racquets. I remember when he first started using the blacked out version of his 93" Wilson Pro Staff in 2013. For the years leading up to that point he had been the only top ranked male player to use a racquet with a head size smaller than 95".

It had an immediate impact on his game and certain shots seemed to improve dramatically (his backhand in particular.)

Pete Sampras could have benefited, from a racquet change, in a similar sense.

Although, I don't believe he would have won another grand slam after the 2002 US Open.

Racquet change or not.

He picked the perfect time to retire!

 

[CHillTennis]

@CHillTennis My mistake, he used the Pro Staff 85 at USO 2002 as what you've said.

My apology.

No worries!