Why couldn't Djoko dethrone Nadal at RG?

beltsman

Legend
We hear so much about Djokovic dethroning Nadal 2011 and onwards, but why has Nadal dominated this decade at RG?
 

beard

Professional
Because Nadal is too good, and Novak missed few times a chance, when he maybe could have a chance, to get in final and meet him (2011, 2019) ...

Anyway, he did beat him on RG, so we can say he dethroned him for two years, and Nadal didn't give him chance in 2016, when he certainly could and I think would beat him again...

All considered, I'm satisfied with Novak's clay h2h with Nadal. After all, we know who is Nadal on clay... And Djokovic comprehended him best of all players...
 

OhYes

Legend
He did, and he won RG too.
For other attempts it was one of, or combination of: pressure, him not being good enough and not lucky.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Because Djokovic is a HC player and not a natural clay courter and it shows in pressure situations.

Some of my fav rallies ever are the ones where Djokovic thought he was doing something special in a rally and Nadal started to crank up the spin and pull Djokovic around and make him scream while retrieving balls, and Rafa spanks a winner while Djokovic looks on in disbelief :p
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
That vid is exactly what I was just thinking about that made me say what I said in the last post lol. It made Nadal working him out all those times after that, that much more satisfying :D

8 years later:



:whistle::whistle::whistle:
After watching the replay of that press conference Nadal was probably thinking "Fvcking football players".



 
So? The question is why couldn't Djokovic dethrone him. The fact is he did. No one is saying Nadal's form was not bad in 2015, but Djokovic kept turning up year after year to meet Nadal, so deserves credit for it.
Nadal wasn't bad in 2015, he was terrible. It's amazing how Djokovic fans are so proud of this win over a version of Nadal who could barely walk, yet they are defending Djokovic's losses in USO 2010/2013, matches where Djokovic was at least decent. Just yesterday you wrote Nadal's USO 2010 win is overrated, but now you write Djokovic somehow "dethroned" Nadal on clay in 2015-2016, when the truth is Nadal disappeared himself.
 

Hitman

Professional
Nadal wasn't bad in 2015, he was terrible. It's amazing how Djokovic fans are so proud of this win over a version of Nadal who could barely walk, yet they are defending Djokovic's losses in USO 2010/2013, matches where Djokovic was at least decent. Just yesterday you wrote Nadal's USO 2010 win is overrated.
Look, the question is Why couldn't Djokovic dethrone Nadal? - Answer - He has dethroned him. He beat him in 2015. Everyone knows the story of what happened, and what Nadal was going through. But it seems many want to sweep it away like it never happened, which is fundamentally wrong. Am I saying Djokovi beat a fantastic version of Nadal? Of course not, but he still beat him. It counts.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal wasn't bad in 2015, he was terrible. It's amazing how Djokovic fans are so proud of this win over a version of Nadal who could barely walk, yet they are defending Djokovic's losses in USO 2010/2013, matches where Djokovic was at least decent. Just yesterday you wrote Nadal's USO 2010 win is overrated, but now you write Djokovic somehow "dethroned" Nadal on clay in 2015-2016, when the truth is Nadal disappeared himself.
No one can dethrone Rafa in RG. He is the King there no matter what now. One match like that is like a drop in the ocean compared to what Rafa has done in Paris.
 

Sport

Legend
Nadal wasn't bad in 2015, he was terrible. It's amazing how Djokovic fans are so proud of this win over a version of Nadal who could barely walk, yet they are defending Djokovic's losses in USO 2010/2013, matches where Djokovic was at least decent. Just yesterday you wrote Nadal's USO 2010 win is overrated, but now you write Djokovic somehow "dethroned" Nadal on clay in 2015-2016, when the truth is Nadal disappeared himself.
Hitman is right though. Let us give credit to every Djokovic's victory. All H2H matches count.
 

Hitman

Professional
Nadal wasn't bad in 2015, he was terrible. It's amazing how Djokovic fans are so proud of this win over a version of Nadal who could barely walk, yet they are defending Djokovic's losses in USO 2010/2013, matches where Djokovic was at least decent. Just yesterday you wrote Nadal's USO 2010 win is overrated, but now you write Djokovic somehow "dethroned" Nadal on clay in 2015-2016, when the truth is Nadal disappeared himself.

Funny how you ignore that I also praised Nadal for his AO 2009 win and said it was the greatest single slam win between all three of them. Nadal chose to play in 2015, and he lost, he was not at his best, it happens, it is sport, but he was dethroned. It happens. Most of the times, champions do get dethroned when they are not in form, or getting older, it happens all the time. Nadal got caught in 2015, not sure why so many get so upset by that. Again, do not confuse form for dethroning, they are two different things.

Let me give you another example in Bodybuilding.

Ronnie Coleman was the greatest bodybuilder of all time, during his peak he simply could not be defeated on the Olympia stage, but as he got older, his shape and conditioning started to go down and he got dethroned by Jay Cutler, the same Jay Cutler, who couldn't beat him for several years. It happens, it doesn't take away from Ronnie, or Rafa, but don't confusing dethroning with peak form.
 

Hitman

Professional
Well, that's the same thing as to say Thiem "dethroned" Djokovic by destroying him in RG 2017. But for some reason Djokovic fans don't like to hear it.
Hey, Thiem deserves for credit for it, don't lump all Djokovic fans together, thank you. Djokovic wasn't up to the task and Thiem rightfully beat him and dethroned him. It all counts.
 

Hitman

Professional
Hitman is right though. Let us give credit to every Djokovic's victory. All H2H matches count.
Exactly. If you turn up to play, it all counts. Or shall we also say Nadal has never really beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon, Djokovic being injured in 2007 doesn't count. See, I can play this game also, but it looks cheap. If you turn up to play, it all counts in the record books. Yes, we can say that Djokovic didn't beat peak Rafa, I don't think anyone will argue that point, but he did officially dethrone him, that is in the history books, and denying it or saying it doesn't count, doesn't change it.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
That vid is exactly what I was just thinking about that made me say what I said in the last post lol. It made Nadal working him out all those times after that, that much more satisfying :D

8 years later:



:whistle::whistle::whistle:
Too bad he couldn't work him out enough off clay. Lol. Djokovic has spanked Nadal at RG, at Rome (3 times), at Monte Carlo (twice) and at Madrid. Those are all Nadal playgrounds. Nadal has yet to beat Djokovic at AO, Miami, Cincinnati, Paris or Shanghai, all on hardcourt. The only Wimbledon win he has is a retirement. :censored:
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Too bad he couldn't work him out enough off clay. Lol. Djokovic has spanked Nadal at RG, at Rome (3 times), at Monte Carlo (twice) and at Madrid. Those are all Nadal playgrounds. Nadal has yet to beat Djokovic at AO, Miami, Cincinnati, Paris or Shanghai, all on hardcourt. The only Wimbledon win he has is a retirement. :censored:
Huh? Sorry I can't hear you from the world #1 mancave :p
 
Exactly. If you turn up to play, it all counts. Or shall we also say Nadal has never really beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon, Djokovic being injured in 2007 doesn't count. See, I can play this game also, but it looks cheap. If you turn up to play, it all counts in the record books. Yes, we can say that Djokovic didn't beat peak Rafa, I don't think anyone will argue that point, but he did officially dethrone him, that is in the history books, and denying it or saying it doesn't count, doesn't change it.
You will be surprised. Some trolls claim that Nadal was going to win RG 2015 if Djokovic wasn't there to stop him. This is not just ridiculous, it's lunacy.
 

Hitman

Professional
You will be surprised. Some trolls claim that Nadal was going to win RG 2015 if Djokovic wasn't there to stop him. This is not just ridiculous, it's lunacy.
Trolls will say these things to get a rise out of you and the more level headed fans, that is the primary reason why they say these again. Nadal's 2015 form was bad, we all know this, his confidence was not where it should be, he was hitting short, he was a shadow of his former self. We know this.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
All that work to still be in 3rd place? :D like I told Hitman, hmu when he can beat Medvedev, im too busy enjoying dat 19th slam 8-B

Lol What a describing gif :laughing: How did you find it?I’m feeling the same. All this talk about this and that to make the year sound better for their player. Then we have Rafa 2019. 19. 1.
Where is the Big Brother queen gif again? Long time since seen it.
 

Hitman

Professional
Correct. Once 2020 hits, we need to be focused on him adding more in the 3rd decade. Lol.
It will come. Djokovic is a fighting champion, this thread sums it up. Nadal kept denying him year after year at RG, until he couldn't deny him anymore. ;) (y)

Good times ahead for Team Earth's Mightiest. :cool:
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
It will come. Djokovic is a fighting champion, this thread sums it up. Nadal kept denying him year after year at RG, until he couldn't deny him anymore. ;) (y)

Good times ahead for Team Earth's Mightiest. :cool:
I think he should have rested more before the start of AO though. His schedule is a little too hectic imo but I guess he knows what he's doing.
 

Hitman

Professional
I think he should have rested more before the start of AO though. His schedule is a little too hectic imo but I guess he knows what he's doing.
I do agree with you, but he could pull out of these events. Djokovic knows his body very well, so I do trust him with what he is doing. AO to one side, the most important goal is just staying healthy. I do think the war he went through with Federer at Wimbledon 2019 cost him the rest of the season, it was brutal and I don't think he recovered from that, Federer then personally denying him that top spot at the end. You cannot control when you get into such dogfights, but you do have a say in how you recover. If he has been recovering, then hopefully he will be ready to go all out in Melbourne.
 

Sport

Legend
Too bad he couldn't work him out enough off clay. Lol. Djokovic has spanked Nadal at RG, at Rome (3 times), at Monte Carlo (twice) and at Madrid. Those are all Nadal playgrounds. Nadal has yet to beat Djokovic at AO, Miami, Cincinnati, Paris or Shanghai, all on hardcourt. The only Wimbledon win he has is a retirement. :censored:
Nadal was clearly leading the score before the retirement in that Wimbledon match though. So it is a 100% valid victory, just like the RG 2015 match was valid victory. All H2H matches count, including Wimbledon 2007.

With regard to your second point, Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic at the US Open. The US Open is played on hard, Djokovic's most succesful surface along with grass. Can you imagine Nadal having a losing H2H in a Slam on clay agaisnt Djokovic? Nuff said.
 

Hitman

Professional
Nadal was clearly leading the score before the retirement in that Wimbledon match though. So it is a 100% valid victory, just like the RG 2015 match was valid victory. All H2H matches count, including Wimbledon 2007.

With regard to your second point, Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic at the US Open. The US Open is played on hard, Djokovic's most succesful surface along with grass. Can you imagine Nadal having a losing H2H in a Slam on clay agaisnt Djokovic? Nuff said.
Sport, firstly I am on your side, in that it is a valid win, even if Djokovic was injured. AO 2014 final also was a valid win. If you step on court, they all count. All I am doing is exposing some double standards and saying I can play that game also.

As for the USO H2H, do you really want me to go to town on that? I don't think we need to bring that here, the thread is about stating that Djokovic did in fact dethrone Nadal at RG, which you agree to. So nuff said.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Nadal was clearly leading the score before the retirement in that Wimbledon match though. So it is a 100% valid victory, just like the RG 2015 match was valid victory. All W2H matches count, including Wimbledon 2007.

With regard to your second point, Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic at the US Open. The US Open is played on hard, Djokovic's most succesful surface along with grass. Can you imagine Nadal having a losing H2H in a Slam on clay agaisnt Djokovic? Nuff said.
I didn't say it wasn't a valid victory, but I'm just putting things into perspective. ;)

I was actually having a little fun with some banter but since you brought it up...So 1 big tournament out of 9 that are played on hardcourt he has a head to head lead, by one match, but you are leaving out that the last match happened over 6 years ago. You kind of repeat this often but he never hardly even played Djokovic in Slams outside of RG. If they played 7 matches at USO, no I can't see Nadal with a lead.
 

Sport

Legend
Sport, firstly I am on your side, in that it is a valid win, even if Djokovic was injured. AO 2014 final also was a valid win. If you step on court, they all count. All I am doing is exposing some double standards and saying I can play that game also.

As for the USO H2H, do you really want me to go to town on that? I don't think we need to bring that here, the thread is about stating that Djokovic did in fact dethrone Nadal at RG, which you agree to. So nuff said.
Of course I do not want to start an off-topic discussion. But an otherwise excellent forum member like @NoleFam started "dissing" Nadal here with off-topic remarks about Wimbledon 2007 and Nadal-Djokovic H2H outside clay.

Yes. On topic, I agree that all H2H matches count, including of course the RG 2015 match where Djokovic defeated Nadal.
 

Sport

Legend
I didn't say it wasn't a valid victory, but I'm just putting things into perspective. ;)

I was actually having a little fun with some banter but since you brought it up...So 1 big tournament out of 8 that are played on hardcourt he has a head to head lead, by one match, but you are leaving out that the last match happened over 6 years ago. You kind of repeat this often but he never hardly even played Djokovic in Slams outside of RG. If they played 7 matches at USO, no I can't see Nadal with a lead.
See my reply to @Hitman. Let us stay on the main topic.
 

Hitman

Professional
Of course I do not want to start an off-topic discussion. But an otherwise excellent forum member like @NoleFam started "dissing" Nadal here with off-topic remarks about Wimbledon 2007 and Nadal-Djokovic H2H outside clay.

Yes. On topic, I agree that all H2H matches count, including of course the RG 2015 match where Djokovic defeated Nadal.
@NoleFam was just bantering, he is one of the most level headed and fair posters on this forum. And credit to you for understanding and agreeing with what the topic is about.
 
Look, the question is Why couldn't Djokovic dethrone Nadal? - Answer - He has dethroned him. He beat him in 2015. Everyone knows the story of what happened, and what Nadal was going through. But it seems many want to sweep it away like it never happened, which is fundamentally wrong. Am I saying Djokovi beat a fantastic version of Nadal? Of course not, but he still beat him. It counts.
I guess they want to say Djokovic didn't 'dethrone' Nadal because Nadal was obviously poor so it was a matter of time. I wouldn't say Federer 'dethroned' Sampras at Wimbledon (not until he overtook Pete's record, that is( or Istomin 'dethroned' Djokovic at the AO, for example.
 

Hitman

Professional
I guess they want to say Djokovic didn't 'dethrone' Nadal because Nadal was obviously poor so it was a matter of time. I wouldn't say Federer 'dethroned' Sampras at Wimbledon (not until he overtook Pete's record, that is( or Istomin 'dethroned' Djokovic at the AO, for example.
But as I said earlier that is sport, a lot of the time, it happens when the guy at the top slips, and the younger hungrier guy catches him. It doesn't take away from the greatness of the champion, but it happens. All reigns come to an end.
 
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