Why did Federer slow down so much since 2008?

[Deleted member 744633]

Got a bit older during 2008 - 2010 and faced a very strong rival whom he matched up badly against (Nadal).

Then from 2011 onwards he was 30+, younger ATGs were supposed to beat him after that point, so I give little credit to Novak Djokovic for his victories.

Otha, seriously? Djokovic was beating the crap out of not just Federer but Nadal and every other top player. Federer's age had nothing to do with it. Please give Djokovic the credit he fully deserves

 

[mike danny]

His level dropped a bit after 2007. Also he faced strongest competition from younger generation. He had deal with Djokovic, Nadal, Potro, Tsonga, Berdych, Murray etc. Now compare this competition with Dimitrov and Raonic generation. Federer would have kept winning Slams at the same rate had he got Raonic instead of Nadal as main rival.

He would have won 2 slams in 2008 if he had got 2013 Djokovic instead of Nadal.

 

[mike danny]

Federer didn't get old aged 26. In fact, he was both in his physical and technical peak. Only problem is he faced Nadal in the Wimbledon 2008 final, not Philippoussis.

Because this forum is ruleď by Federer fans, they will insult you if you assert the truth: that Federer was at his absolute best in the Wimbledon 2008 final. I understand them though. They need an excuse to justify such a painful loss to Nadal. What I don't understand is the need for insults. To insult another person for the mere act of expressing a different view is a synonym of fanatism. What's the point of a tennis forum if you can't interchange different views? Not everyone sees Federer as a God that needs to be "non-peak" to lose to Nadal or Djokovic. Some of us actualize realize those are desperate excuses from a fanbase.

Nadal didn't get old also at 28, yet he has still been dominated by his main rivals ever since

 

[mike danny]

How lucky of "Djokodal" that they never had to play each other. Other than the most head-to-heads in the OE.

This is futile anyway after 2013. This hasn't been a rivalry ever since, so bad younger players has proven to be significant.

 

[mike danny]

What a trollish thread from a poster with such an "unbiased" username.Fed slowed down after the 2010 AO, but it had to happen at some point because that amazing consistency since 2004 was not meant to last forever.The loss at Wimbledon had to happen because expecting someone to win a slam 6 or 7 times in a row is ridiculous.Losing at the AO 2008 was nothing out of the ordinary because he never won that tournament more than 2 times in a row and he wasn't 100% either at that tournament.That loss against Delpo at the USO is unforgivable though.

Even Nadal hasn't won RG 7 straight times, but sure, Fed is such a fraud for failing to do so.

 

[mike danny]

They can't face each other in every match.

They are not a rivalry anymore and haven't been since 2014.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

now please tell us which ATGs 4-8 years younger did Djokodal face?

let me guess:
Krajinovic
Djere
Albot
Goffin
Dimitrov
Sonego
Gerasimov

did I miss someone?

Djokovic Nadal always had each other, plus an older Federer playing peak/prime tennis in 2015/2017/2019, Murray, Wawrinka. As for younger players they have successfully stopped Thiem, Medvedev, Tsisipas in slams who could be the next ATG once their careers are over.

 

[RaulRamirez]

This is futile anyway after 2013. This hasn't been a rivalry ever since, so bad younger players has proven to be significant.

As you probably realize, two aspects of this argument get on my nerves:

1. Posters talking about "Djokodal" as if they're a single entity who haven't had to battle each other time and again.
2. Posters always trotting out the same "no younger ATGs" chasing them. There is partial truth there, but it's overplayed. There's no general agreement on who is an ATG. Most would say that nobody but The Big 3 - whether older Aggasi, or Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Murray, Wawrinka or Thiem - were ATGs (or still playing like one or yet to prove themselves as one). That doesn't mean that any of The Big 3 "vultured' titles, or I guess, somehow didn't earn them.

Each of them have earned what they've achieved. I'm not big on hypotheticals, so I mostly reject the OP's projections without a need to attempt to rewrite what did happen at each slam.

Oh well...no era or circumstance has been so "weak" as to invalidate achievements.

 

[ForehandRF]

Even Nadal hasn't won RG 7 straight times, but sure, Fed is such a fraud for failing to do so.

And he has yet to play 6 consecutive finals there, much less 7 like Fed did at Wimbledon.Not to mention that Fed has played 6 consecutive finals at the USO too.Such a fraud this Fed is because he couldn't play 10 consecutive finals or something anywhere

 

[NoleIsBoat]

If feel sorry that your misery will last so long, that means if Fed, the weakest of the big 3, vultured a number 1 spot for one week at age 36 (and only because Nole wasn't spanking Fed at the time) when Nole gets to that age he will do a lot better.

When will Fed fans learn? They said for years Djokovic/Nadal would be finished and win nothing in 30s... yet they have aged better than Federer did by winning more slams and more time at number 1 aged 31-34

 

[blablavla]

They can't face each other in every match.

Djere and Albot?
yeah, I know that

I was asking which younger ATGs are chasing Djokodal.
Could you please publish the comprehensive list?

 

[mike danny]

As you probably realize, two aspects of this argument get on my nerves:

1. Posters talking about "Djokodal" as if they're a single entity who haven't had to battle each other time and again.

But they really haven't had to battle each other like in the old days after 2014. Other than 2018 Wimb which is, in my view, the best match of the 2010's decade, their matches in the last 6 years have been beatdown after beatdown and they have only played 4 slam matches in the last 6 years, 3 of them being absolute beatdowns.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Djere and Albot?
yeah, I know that

I was asking which younger ATGs are chasing Djokodal.
Could you please publish the comprehensive list?

Thiem, Medvedev, Tsisipas are at least as good and maybe better than Federer main rivals, Roddick, Hewitt, Bagdhatis etc and may go on to be ATG.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

But they really haven't had to battle each other like in the old days after 2014. Other than 2018 Wimb which is, in my view, the best match of the 2010's decade, their matches in the last 6 years have been beatdown after beatdown and they have only played 4 slam matches in the last 6 years, 3 of them being absolute beatdowns.

Djokovic since 2014 defeated Federer 6 times, Murray 5 times and led the slam h2h 3 - 2 vs Nadal. All ATGs.

 

[blablavla]

Djokovic Nadal always had each other, plus an older Federer playing peak/prime tennis in 2015/2017/2019, Murray, Wawrinka. As for younger players they have successfully stopped Thiem, Medvedev, Tsisipas in slams who could be the next ATG once their careers are over.

OK, let me rephrase the question, so that even a "smart" fan like you can understand it.
Can you please publish the list of players younger than Djokodal with talent and achievements comparable to the following players:
Djokovic
Nadal
Federer
Safin
Hewitt
Roddick
Kuerten
Sampras
Becker
Edberg
and the list goes on

 

[blablavla]

Thiem, Medvedev, Tsisipas are at least as good and maybe better than Federer main rivals, Roddick, Hewitt, Bagdhatis etc and may go on to be ATG.

Roddick, Hewitt and Safin didn't wait for anyone to retire.
If you didn't know, by the age of 22 years old the all had following achievements:
GS winner
reached #1 in ranking

and you know what? that defeated Sampras and Agassi and Kuerten in order to get there.

Please wake me up when Thiem, Medvedev and Tsisipas get to #1 in ATP ranking and win majors before they turn 24 years old. I'm generous to them.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

OK, let me rephrase the question, so that even a "smart" fan like you can understand it.
Can you please publish the list of players younger than Djokodal with talent and achievements comparable to the following players:
Djokovic
Nadal
Federer
Safin
Hewitt
Roddick
Kuerten
Sampras
Becker
Edberg
and the list goes on

Thiem, Tsisipas, Medvedev, Zverev can go on to surpass Roddick, Hewitt and potentially have Becker and Edberg level career when they are finished. Too early to judge them.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Roddick, Hewitt and Safin didn't wait for anyone to retire.
If you didn't know, by the age of 22 years old the all had following achievements:
GS winner
reached #1 in ranking

and you know what? that defeated Sampras and Agassi and Kuerten in order to get there.

Please wake me up when Thiem, Medvedev and Tsisipas get to #1 in ATP ranking and win majors before they turn 24 years old. I'm generous to them.

With all due respect, modern medicine has enabled the big 3 to play on way past the normal retirement age. Federer has played prime tennis in years like 2015/2017/2019 where PETE was retired by this age. Plus Djokovic and Nadal are the best two players ever so it's tougher to displace them than an older declined Sampras.

 

[blablavla]

When will Fed fans learn? They said for years Djokovic/Nadal would be finished and win nothing in 30s... yet they have aged better than Federer did by winning more slams and more time at number 1 aged 31-34

They would be finished if they had younger ATG level chasing them and handing them one defeat after another
I hope you don't think that they enjoy being top 20 players for 5 years or so
Look when Sampras and Agassi retired

But with modern competition, which allows Fed to be #3 or #4, and win GS titles, why would he retire?
so, in case of Djokodal, as well, as long as they can split the #1 and #2 in ranking, keep winning GS and split the weeks at #1, why would they retire?

generation Dimitrov, Goffin & Nishikori hoped to rule the ATP when Djokodal retires.
well, it looks like this generation will retire before Djokodal, you know why? because a healthy & strong lion never walks into the sunset. A lion only walks away when defeated.
a lion won't be scared by some domestic cats

and this is what we talk, Fed had 2 lions behind him.
these 2 lions have 100 cats behind them.
see the difference?

 

[blablavla]

Thiem, Tsisipas, Medvedev, Zverev can go on to surpass Roddick, Hewitt and potentially have Becker and Edberg level career when they are finished. Too early to judge them.

would coulda shoulda?
I thought Fed was the king of fantasy tennis

but you little troll take it to the new levels

 

[NoleIsBoat]

would coulda shoulda?
I thought Fed was the king of fantasy tennis

but you little troll take it to the new levels

No i am talking about future achievements so there is no fantasy or would have. We don't know yet whether these players will finish career as ATG.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

They would be finished if they had younger ATG level chasing them and handing them one defeat after another
I hope you don't think that they enjoy being top 20 players for 5 years or so
Look when Sampras and Agassi retired

But with modern competition, which allows Fed to be #3 or #4, and win GS titles, why would he retire?
so, in case of Djokodal, as well, as long as they can split the #1 and #2 in ranking, keep winning GS and split the weeks at #1, why would they retire?

generation Dimitrov, Goffin & Nishikori hoped to rule the ATP when Djokodal retires.
well, it looks like this generation will retire before Djokodal, you know why? because a healthy & strong lion never walks into the sunset. A lion only walks away when defeated.
a lion won't be scared by some domestic cats

and this is what we talk, Fed had 2 lions behind him.
these 2 lions have 100 cats behind them.
see the difference?

Federer also had 2004-2007 era with Bagdhatis, Philippousis, Gonzalez, Roddick, Kiefer, Henman etc before any strong rivals off clay emerged so that's 4 years.

Yes Dimitrov, Raonic gen was as weak as those but Djokovic still had older Fed playing prime tennis, Murray who is arguably an ATG, Wawrinka who has one of highest peaks ever, Thiem, Tsisipas, Medvedev...

 

[blablavla]

With all due respect, modern medicine has enabled the big 3 to play on way past the normal retirement age. Federer has played prime tennis in years like 2015/2017/2019 where PETE was retired by this age. Plus Djokovic and Nadal are the best two players ever so it's tougher to displace them than an older declined Sampras.

it's not the medicine.
it's competition that can't defeat them.

weak era mugs as you'r tribesmen like to call Roddick, Safin and Hewitt defeated Sampras and Agassi fair and square
that's why Agassi had injuries, because he couldn't sustain a physical level required to defeat these guys week in week out, 11 months per year

Federer can afford to skip the entire clay swing
Nadal can afford to skip stretches of the season
Djokovic can afford to focus on 4 tournaments per year

you know why?

because nobody can defeat them, and the points from clay swing, or 4 majors is enough to stay at #1 / #2

go check how undefeated was Agassi or Pete in the season when they retired.
It might tell you thing or two about why they retired

 

[NoleIsBoat]

it's not the medicine.
it's competition that can't defeat them.

weak era mugs as you'r tribesmen like to call Roddick, Safin and Hewitt defeated Sampras and Agassi fair and square
that's why Agassi had injuries, because he couldn't sustain a physical level required to defeat these guys week in week out, 11 months per year

Federer can afford to skip the entire clay swing
Nadal can afford to skip stretches of the season
Djokovic can afford to focus on 4 tournaments per year

you know why?

because nobody can defeat them, and the points from clay swing, or 4 majors is enough to stay at #1 / #2

go check how undefeated was Agassi or Pete in the season when they retired.
It might tell you thing or two about why they retired

Agassi could barely walk since 2004/2005 and relied on his shotmaking to stay in the top 10. PETE lost interest in the game and was losing to everywhere in the last two years except for the USO.

Not in the same league as motivated and still hungry big2/3 who are the best tennis players ever, plus modern medicine, nutrition, physios enabling them to play prime tennis in 30s.

 

[blablavla]

Federer also had 2004-2007 era with Bagdhatis, Philippousis, Gonzalez, Roddick, Kiefer, Henman etc before any strong rivals off clay emerged so that's 4 years.

Yes Dimitrov, Raonic gen was as weak as those but Djokovic still had older Fed playing prime tennis, Murray who is arguably an ATG, Wawrinka who has one of highest peaks ever, Thiem, Tsisipas, Medvedev...

Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JC Ferrero, Moya, Kuerten

do you know what these players have in common?
they all reached #1 in ranking
they all won GS

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JC Ferrero, Moya, Kuerten

do you know what these players have in common?
they all reached #1 in ranking
they all won GS

So did Murray and old Federer, both who Djokovic defeated many times since 2014

 

[Phoenix1983]

Otha, seriously? Djokovic was beating the crap out of not just Federer but Nadal and every other top player. Federer's age had nothing to do with it. Please give Djokovic the credit he fully deserves

Machan, he deserves the titles, but they should not be held as evidence that he is greater than Federer - given the latter was in his mid-late 30s.

 

[RaulRamirez]

But they really haven't had to battle each other like in the old days after 2014. Other than 2018 Wimb which is, in my view, the best match of the 2010's decade, their matches in the last 6 years have been beatdown after beatdown and they have only played 4 slam matches in the last 6 years, 3 of them being absolute beatdowns.

Okay, so I think this is our common ground.
"Weak era" arguments - however worded, and by whoever - are generally both misleading and overplayed.
Rafa-Novak W18 was (I think it's my #1 for iits combo of mportance, quality and drama) the match of the decade.
...
Agreed, that for the last 6 years, their matchups (at slams, anyway) have mostly been surface dependent, although one can't completely discount 2015 RG.
Still, they go all in on majors, and but for 2015 and 2017 (when Federer was the biggest challenger, Rafa and Novak have mostly had to top the other to get to #1 - if not for direct battle as often as, day, 2011-13.

 

[mike danny]

Okay, so I think this is our common ground.
"Weak era" arguments - however worded, and by whoever - are generally both misleading and overplayed.
Rafa-Novak W18 was (I think it's my #1 for iits combo of mportance, quality and drama) the match of the decade.
...
Agreed, that for the last 6 years, their matchups (at slams, anyway) have mostly been surface dependent, although one can't completely discount 2915 RG.
Still, they go all in on majors, and but for 2015 and 2017 (when Federer was the biggest challenger, Rafa and Novak have mostly had to top the other to get to #1 - if not for direct battle as often as, day, 2011-13.

This isn't even about weak era. It's about stating the truth about the Djokodal rivalry after their glory days.

They haven't had to battle each other for no.1, one of them simply faltered at the right times.

 

[blablavla]

No i am talking about future achievements so there is no fantasy or would have. We don't know yet whether these players will finish career as ATG.

so you know the future?

can you please publish all results of the AO 2021 MD?
that should be easy, since you know that Thiem, Tsisipas, Medvedev, Zverev will become ATGs.
if you can't publish the correct results of the entire AO 2021 MD, can I officially call you a loud mouth troll?

 

[NoleIsBoat]

so you know the future?

can you please publish all results of the AO 2021 MD?
that should be easy, since you know that Thiem, Tsisipas, Medvedev, Zverev will become ATGs.
if you can't publish the correct results of the entire AO 2021 MD, can I officially call you a loud mouth troll?

I am not psychic so can't tell future results. They could become ATG, they might not.

 

[blablavla]

So did Murray and old Federer, both who Djokovic defeated many times since 2014

let's compare the list:
Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JC Ferrero, Moya, Kuerten

Murray, Wawrinka

wanna compare some additional stats?
like amount of GS / Masters?
amount of weeks at #1?

 

[NoleIsBoat]

let's compare the list:
Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JC Ferrero, Moya, Kuerten

Murray, Wawrinka

wanna compare some additional stats?
like amount of GS / Masters?
amount of weeks at #1?

Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JC Ferrero, Moya, Kuerten

Or

Murray, Wawrinka, Federer, Nadal

I think i choose the list with 46 slams combined

 

[blablavla]

So did Murray and old Federer, both who Djokovic defeated many times since 2014

don't be ridiculous.
wasn't Fed just a weak era fraud thriving on weak mug opponents?
why all of a sudden old Fed would become an glorious opponent to be defeated? isn't it similar to defeating a retired Kiefer or Philipousis?

 

[blablavla]

Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JC Ferrero, Moya, Kuerten

Or

Murray, Wawrinka, Federer, Nadal

I think i choose the list with 46 slams combined

nice try
now exclude Federer and Nadal from that list, cause both were active during that weak era 2004 - 2007

 

[blablavla]

I am not psychic so can't tell future results. They could become ATG, they might not.

so woudla coulda shoulda confirmed

 

[NoleIsBoat]

don't be ridiculous.
wasn't Fed just a weak era fraud thriving on weak mug opponents?
why all of a sudden old Fed would become an glorious opponent to be defeated? isn't it similar to defeating a retired Kiefer or Philipousis?

Federer is a brilliant tennis player. No shame in being the 3rd best of your era and one of the best of all time.

 

[Deleted member 777746]

Obviously when you climb Everest and fall off the mountain top people really care about it and ask why it happened. Then you only climb McKinley the next go and people say you've been exposed. When you climb the little pile of leaves in the backyard and fall off that, people don't care so much. Then you climb up a little bunny hill your next go and people are falling over themselves with praise.

the problem for Federer is he scaled McKinley thinking it was Everest, as did his fanbase

 

[NoleIsBoat]

nice try
now exclude Federer and Nadal from that list, cause both were active during that weak era 2004 - 2007

2004-2007 competition ->

Bagdhatis, Gonzalez, Philippousis, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi, Nadal on clay&grass, Djokovic for 1 year on hard courts.


2011 - 2016 competition ->

Federer, Nadal, Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Del Potro, Berdych, Ferrer.


I'll let others decide which era was stronger

 

[Deleted member 777746]

Federer didn't get old aged 26. In fact, he was both in his physical and technical peak. Only problem is he faced Nadal in the Wimbledon 2008 final, not Philippoussis.

Because this forum is ruleď by Federer fans, they will insult you if you assert the truth: that Federer was at his absolute best in the Wimbledon 2008 final. I understand them though. They need an excuse to justify such a painful loss to Nadal. What I don't understand is the need for insults. To insult another person for the mere act of expressing a different view is a synonym of fanatism. What's the point of a tennis forum if you can't interchange different views? Not everyone sees Federer as a God that needs to be "non-peak" to lose to Nadal or Djokovic. Some of us actualize realize those are desperate excuses from a fanbase.

Honestly this shouldn't be controversial at all. 21 year old Nadal of the previous year took "peak" Federer to 5 and had break points in the fifth. If anything, Nadal wasn't quite performing at his best in '08 seeing as it took a much better version of himself 5 sets to dispatch of peak Federer

 

[blablavla]

2004-2007 competition ->

Bagdhatis, Gonzalez, Philippousis, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi, Nadal on clay&grass, Djokovic for 1 year on hard courts.


2011 - 2016 competition ->

Federer, Nadal, Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Del Potro, Berdych, Ferrer.


I'll let others decide which era was stronger

let others decide whether
2004-2007 competition ->

Bagdhatis, Gonzalez, Philippousis, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi, Nadal on clay&grass, Djokovic for 1 year on hard courts.
2004 some of the top 10 players: Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Moya
2005 some of the top 10 players: Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi, Davydenko, Safin
2006 some of the top 10 players: Nadal, Davydenko, Roddick, Nalbandian, Blake
2007 some of the top 10 players: Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer

was weaker than 2015 - onward

Djere, Albot, Krajinovic, Sonego

 

[NoleIsBoat]

let others decide whether
2004-2007 competition ->

Bagdhatis, Gonzalez, Philippousis, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi, Nadal on clay&grass, Djokovic for 1 year on hard courts.
2004 some of the top 10 players: Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Moya
2005 some of the top 10 players: Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi, Davydenko, Safin
2006 some of the top 10 players: Nadal, Davydenko, Roddick, Nalbandian, Blake
2007 some of the top 10 players: Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer

was weaker than 2015 - onward

Djere, Albot, Krajinovic, Sonego

 

[King No1e]

I'd did an expert analysis thread on this topic the other day:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/why-is-federe-was-so-bad-in-2008.663536/

 

[blablavla]

???

It means Federer great when facing Bagdhatis, Roddick, Philippousis etc but loses most of the time vs better opponents.

no, it means that Fed was born in 1981
you know which other players belong to his generation?

JC Ferrero 1980. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking
Safin 1980. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking
Hewitt 1981. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking
Roddick 1982. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking

can you compile a similar list for the generations after Djokodal?

 

[Deleted member 744633]

Machan, he deserves the titles, but they should not be held as evidence that he is greater than Federer - given the latter was in his mid-late 30s.

Machi, I see your point but you must note that Djokovic started beating Federer and Nadal regularly from late 2010.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

no, it means that Fed was born in 1981
you know which other players belong to his generation?

JC Ferrero 1980. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking
Safin 1980. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking
Hewitt 1981. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking
Roddick 1982. A dude that won GS title(s) and reached #1 in ranking

can you compile a similar list for the generations after Djokodal?

None of those guys are anywhere as strong as Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, 2011 - Federer so i am not sure what your point is??

 

[blablavla]

None of those guys are anywhere as strong as Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, 2011 - Federer so i am not sure what your point is??

try to use your brain, perhaps you'll get the meaning

 

[MeatTornado]

the problem for Federer is he scaled McKinley thinking it was Everest, as did his fanbase

I disagree but that's a hilarious analogy

 

[mental midget]

can't believe i'm saying this but i think the mono really threw him off his rhythm. not that he would have continued on indefinitely like he was but my guess is if he never got it he'd be sitting on another slam or 2.

 

[clout]

Competition and age.

Athletes hit their peak at 26 statistically speaking and decline from there, which for Federer was also around the general timeframe that Djoko wins his maiden Slam and Rafa dethrones him at Wimbledon.

He had that last hurrah of US08-AUS10 where he made every Final and won 4 of 6 Slams. Then he was really on the plane to Finland after that.

In no way am I remotely close to a pro athlete but at 30, I am thriving in physical activities way more than I did in my 20s (especially during my early 20s). The human body is still in development until around 25/26.