Why did Federer's grass game decline so badly after the 2008 final?

[RS]

2015 Fed was certainly on par or better than those younger version of himself. But he had to deal with one of the highest grass Peaks in modern tennis history, that year. We aren't talking about the bunny Roddick here you know.

Would 2015 Fed have beaten 2007 Nadal in the final and ran 2008 Nadal that close?

Why is a peak Roddick a grass bunny?

 

[abmk]

I agree that Fed "may" have faced tougher competition in 2003-2008. However, I agreed that Fed had lost half a step AND got older while the competition may have also stepped up (Nadal, Djokovic, Murray etc).

Having this in mind, Federer did remarkably well considering all the factors against him (losing speed, getting older, competition). He won in 2012 and 2017! Made the finals in 2014, 2015 AND 2019 losing only to the tennis GOD Djokovic.
That's actually extremely impressive and that's why Fed is one of the GOATS.

I'm unsure why you're so angry at the TRUTH???

Just DEAL with your emotions a bit better huh? Nobody is trying to troll you bruh.....just spittin' facts homie!

Like I said. Fed only faced Nadal once after 08 on grass and fed actually beat him.
Fed losing to Berdych, tsonga, stak, raonic, anderson is not due to tougher competition, but solely due to decline.
fed also beat Murray at both Wim 12 and Wim 15.
Djokovic lost to fed in Wim 12 and could only beat him when fed was ~33 or older.

 

[nolefam_2024]

What does the grass ELO say never looked at it

Roddick wasn’t exactly a one match peak player at Wim so it is not based on just one match. Don’t you think facing 2013 Djokovic and 2016 Ranoic could see a peak Roddick being a Wim champ?

I don't think this way. Every match is different. Murray beat both without losing even a set. So by logic even if Roddick is tougher than both, which is no guarantee, even then Andy can beat him in 4 or 5.

Grass peak elo
Murray 2475
Roddick 2385

 

[RS]

Set 1
Nadal 2008
Nadal 2007
Roddick 2004
Nadal 2006
Hewitt 2004
Hewitt 2005
Roddick 2003

Set 2
Djokovic 2015
Djokovic 2014
Roddick 2009
Tsonga 2011
Murray 2012
Djokovic 2012
Murray 2015
Stan 2014

Which list was tougher competition by level?

 

[RS]

I don't think this way. Every match is different. Murray beat both without losing even a set. So by logic even if Roddick is tougher than both, which is no guarantee, even then Andy can beat him in 4 or 5.

Grass peak elo
Murray 2475
Roddick 2385

You don’t think facing Fed in 04/09 is a harder challenge >>> than facing 2013 Djokovic or 2016 Raonic? Fair enough.

I don’t know to much about the ELO can you explain how it works?

 

[Shu-Pak]

Like I said. Fed only faced Nadal once after 08 on grass and fed actually beat him.
Fed losing to Berdych, tsonga, stak, raonic, anderson is not due to tougher competition, but solely due to decline.
fed also beat Murray at both Wim 12 and Wim 15.
Djokovic lost to fed in Wim 12 and could only beat him when fed was ~33 or older.

We are literally saying the same thing.

Due to decline Fed was not so good on grass after 2008.

Except that you are angry that I said it and I'm not angry that I said it.

BOOM!

 

[The Fedfather]

First of all, "after that day" Federer literally won the next tournament he played on grass. And that was Wimbledon. Not sure it's that horrible of a decline. As for later losses, how they would be connected to the Wimby 2008 final specifically is beyond me.

As for Federer's general decline on grass, it's probably those marginal declines in speed/reflexes that made executing Roger's usual game more difficult. He could not get into his top gear as effortlessly and consistently as he did during the peak years. Also, mental inhibitions played a role in some of the late-career losses.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

It's also called other competition stepped up and rose to the occasion.
Namely, Nadal and Djokovic.

Fed played one of Djokodal once on grass between 2009 and 2013 inclusive, and he won lol.

 

[mike danny]

It's also called other competition stepped up and rose to the occasion.
Namely, Nadal and Djokovic.

And Berdych, Tsonga, Stakhovsky, Raonic, Anderson.

Weak era fraud indeed.

 

[mike danny]

Jesting. But to give a hot take of the day, I rate all of the Big 4 higher.

That's why Murray was easier for Federer on grass than Roddick.

 

[Shu-Pak]

And Berdych, Tsonga, Stakhovsky, Raonic, Anderson.

Weak era fraud indeed.

Well, I wouldn't call it a weak era. Fed is a GOAT contender and no human can win every time. These are all professionals and can have "one of those days" when they get super hot and can beat anyone (including the great FED).

Fed IMO overachieved and is really a testament to how much his talent has carried him all these years while he was aging and losing half a step here and there.

 

[mike danny]

Murray has 5 queens and 1 Olympics on grass outside Wimbledon. Roddick has 4 Queens.

Roddick has 3 finals and Murray has 3 finals at Wimbledon. Roddick has 0 titles.

Murray would also have 0 titles if he had Roddick's reason

 

[Kralingen]

Set 1
Nadal 2008
Nadal 2007
Roddick 2004
Nadal 2006
Hewitt 2004
Hewitt 2005
Roddick 2003

Set 2
Djokovic 2015
Djokovic 2014
Roddick 2009
Tsonga 2011
Murray 2012
Djokovic 2012
Murray 2015
Stan 2014

Which list was tougher competition by level?

Set 2 but if you remove Roddick ‘09 from the 2nd one it probably swings the other way.

Tsonga ‘11 was ridiculous though. 83% first serves in the sets he won. That’s one look at a second serve every 6 service points. And he was following them up with great volleying and powerful groundstrokes.

 

[mike danny]

Well, I wouldn't call it a weak era. Fed is a GOAT contender and no human can win every time. These are all professionals and can have "one of those days" when they get super hot and can beat anyone (including the great FED).

Fed IMO overachieved and is really a testament to how much his talent has carried him all these years while he was aging and losing half a step here and there.

I was jesting.

You have to be completely unobjective to argue that it was only competition rising and not Federer losing a step.

Djokovic never faced Fed at Wimb from 2003-2009 so we don't know if it was the competition stepping up.

if Federer overachieved, then what about Djokovic?

 

[ffw2]

Imagine taking the world #1 to school more than a decade after leaving peak.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Murray would also have 0 titles if he had Roddick's reason

 

[mike danny]

I agree that Fed "may" have faced tougher competition in 2003-2008. However, I agreed that Fed had lost half a step AND got older while the competition may have also stepped up (Nadal, Djokovic, Murray etc).

Having this in mind, Federer did remarkably well considering all the factors against him (losing speed, getting older, competition). He won in 2012 and 2017! Made the finals in 2014, 2015 AND 2019 losing only to the tennis GOD Djokovic.
That's actually extremely impressive and that's why Fed is one of the GOATS.

I'm unsure why you're so angry at the TRUTH???

Just DEAL with your emotions a bit better huh? Nobody is trying to troll you bruh.....just spittin' facts homie!

Murray LOL.

Berdych, Tsonga LOL.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Fed losing to Berdych, tsonga, stak, raonic, anderson is not due to tougher competition, but solely due to decline.

Indeed. Such a drastic decline from the age of 27 is the reason Federer can't be part of any GOAT conversation.

 

[mike danny]

Fed played one of Djokodal once on grass between 2009 and 2013 inclusive, and he won lol.

It's the same poesy each time LMAO. They don't even bother researching.

 

[ffw2]

Indeed. Such a drastic decline from the age of 27 is the reason Federer can't be part of any GOAT conversation.

Would Federer have been GOAT, in your estimation, had he closed out Djokovic in the Wimbledon 2019 final?

 

[mike danny]

Set 2 but if you remove Roddick ‘09 from the 2nd one it probably swings the other way.

Tsonga ‘11 was ridiculous though. 83% first serves in the sets he won. That’s one look at a second serve every 6 service points. And he was following them up with great volleying and powerful groundstrokes.

Still Federer mugged it up. No two ways around it considering that he lost each of the remaining 3 sets by a break so Fed couldn't hold his serve to save his life.

 

[mike danny]

Would Federer have been GOAT, in your estimation, had he closed out Djokovic in the Wimbledon 2019 final?

It's ridiculous when just one point makes you a loser LOL.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Would Federer have been GOAT, in your estimation, had he closed out Djokovic in the Wimbledon 2019 final?

No. That would have been an incredible achievement, though. But his decline at the slams when faced with two other ATGs was far too great to be wiped out by one match.

 

[RS]

Set 2 but if you remove Roddick ‘09 from the 2nd one it probably swings the other way.

Tsonga ‘11 was ridiculous though. 83% first serves in the sets he won. That’s one look at a second serve every 6 service points. And he was following them up with great volleying and powerful groundstrokes.

How would you rate Roddick of the Wim 09 final out of 10?

 

[ffw2]

No. That would have been an incredible achievement, though. But his decline at the slams when faced with two other ATGs was far too great to be wiped out by one match.

So, winning a crowning Grand Jam title at age 38—by defeating the world #1—and holding the most Jams of all time would not have done it for you?

 

[Shu-Pak]

I was jesting.

You have to be completely unobjective to argue that it was only competition rising and not Federer losing a step.

Djokovic never faced Fed at Wimb from 2003-2009 so we don't know if it was the competition stepping up.

if Federer overachieved, then what about Djokovic?

Of course Djokovic overachieved on grass! That's not a mystery. I am shocked as a Djoko-stan that he has 6 wimbledon titles to his name and that he beat Fed for half of them.
Luck has a lot to do with sports and Djokovic did get lucky a few times but let's not pretend that nobody else did. It's all a wash at the end and every player has to put themselves in a good position to win. That takes skill, talent, hard work and all that other stuff.....including a lot of luck.

I would never downplay the competition from the past as those are all highly skilled pro's. Fed never had it easy.
However, Fed never had it easy after 2008 either. Murray is no joke. Neither is Tsonga or Berdych. If any of them get hot, they can win vs anyone.

 

[D.Nalby12]

He was already declined in 08 final..

 

[Rosstour]

Would 2015 Fed have beaten 2007 Nadal in the final and ran 2008 Nadal that close?

Why is a peak Roddick a grass bunny?

Because he isn't Kevin Anderson or Juan Martin WristPotro, I'm guessing

 

[nolefam_2024]

You don’t think facing Fed in 04/09 is a harder challenge >>> than facing 2013 Djokovic or 2016 Raonic? Fair enough.

I don’t know to much about the ELO can you explain how it works?

Tennis elo takes care of relative strength of the field. I am not sure if it values grand slams more than masters etc. But I can check. So accordingly it says Andy has better peak based on opponents strength.

Tennis Elo ratings explained.

 

[mike danny]

Tennis elo takes care of relative strength of the field. I am not sure if it values grand slams more than masters etc. But I can check. So accordingly it says Andy has better peak based on opponents strength.

Tennis Elo ratings explained.

And yet he was easier for Fed on grass than Roddick.

 

[RS]

Tennis elo takes care of relative strength of the field. I am not sure if it values grand slams more than masters etc. But I can check. So accordingly it says Andy has better peak based on opponents strength.

Tennis Elo ratings explained.

Fair enough if you think Murray was better.

That must mean you think 2012 Murray gets to at least set 5 vs 2004 Federer though since Roddick lost in 4 and he was worse than Murray per you.

 

[mike danny]

Fair enough if you think Murray was better.

That must mean you think 2012 Murray gets to at least set 5 vs 2004 Federer though since Roddick lost in 4 and he was worse than Murray per you.

Too bad reality itself disagrees with him.

 

[RS]

Too bad reality itself disagrees with him.

Rank these from worst to best

Roddick Wim 03 SF
Roddick Wim 04 F
Roddick Wim 09 F
Murray Wim 12 F
Murray Wim 15 SF

 

[mike danny]

Rank these from worst to best

Roddick Wim 03 SF
Roddick Wim 04 F
Roddick Wim 09 F
Murray Wim 12 F
Murray Wim 15 SF

What? Their performances?

09 F, 04 F, 12 F, 03 SF, 15 SF.

15 SF is easily last. Much better Fed in 2003 and Roddick still nearly won a set.

 

[RS]

What? Their performances?

09 F, 04 F, 12 F, 03 SF, 15 SF.

15 SF is easily last. Much better Fed in 2003 and Roddick still nearly won a set.

If Fed of the 2003 SF is a considered 10/10 then what does this make Fed of the 2015 SF if it was much worse?

 

[mike danny]

If Fed of the 2003 SF is a considered 10/10 then what does this make Fed of the 2015 SF if it was much worse?

They played different brands of tennis. 2003 Fed was more explosive, while 2015 Fed played a more serve-oriented style while getting the decisive break at the end of each set.

As brilliant as 2015 Fed was, you really can't compare it with his 22 year old self that was at the peak of his abilities.

Don't know how I'd rank them.

 

[RS]

They played different brands of tennis. 2003 Fed was more explosive, while 2015 Fed played a more serve-oriented style while getting the decisive break at the end of each set.

As brilliant as 2015 Fed was, you really can't compare it with his 22 year old self that was at the peak of his abilities.

Don't know how I'd rank them.

It came up on a thread a few times some years back and the 03 SF was ranked top and the 15 SF in the top 10 somewhere.

 

[mike danny]

It came up on a thread a few times some years back and the 03 SF was ranked top and the 15 SF in the top 10 somewhere.

2015 SF was a great performance, don't get me wrong, but Murray still should have done better considering that Fed was 34 at that time LOL.

And besides, I still don't think I'd rank 2015 SF in his top 5 performances at Wimb. He definitely played better matches than that one even if in some of them he dropped a set.

 

[RS]

2015 SF was a great performance, don't get me wrong, but Murray still should have done better considering that Fed was 34 at that time LOL.

And besides, I still don't think I'd rank 2015 SF in his top 5 performances at Wimb. He definitely played better matches than that one even if in some of them he dropped a set.

Federer's Top 10 Matches on Grass

What do you think are Federer's top 10 matches on grass? Here's my list: 1) 2003 Wimbledon SF vs. Roddick 2) 2006 Wimbledon QF vs. Ancic 3) 2003 Wimbledon F vs. Philippousis 4) 2006 Wimbledon 4R vs. Berdych 5) 2005 Wimbledon SF vs. Hewitt Thing is, I don't know how to rank the next 5. Any...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

You yourself put it as number 4 and over many earlier matches few years back

 

[mike danny]

Federer's Top 10 Matches on Grass

What do you think are Federer's top 10 matches on grass? Here's my list: 1) 2003 Wimbledon SF vs. Roddick 2) 2006 Wimbledon QF vs. Ancic 3) 2003 Wimbledon F vs. Philippousis 4) 2006 Wimbledon 4R vs. Berdych 5) 2005 Wimbledon SF vs. Hewitt Thing is, I don't know how to rank the next 5. Any...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

You yourself put it as number 4 and over many earlier matches few years back

I changed my mind in the meantime

 

[RS]

I changed my mind in the meantime

After those debates with the The Guru and other fans forced you to change opinion

 

[Spencer Gore]

Federer's Top 10 Matches on Grass

What do you think are Federer's top 10 matches on grass? Here's my list: 1) 2003 Wimbledon SF vs. Roddick 2) 2006 Wimbledon QF vs. Ancic 3) 2003 Wimbledon F vs. Philippousis 4) 2006 Wimbledon 4R vs. Berdych 5) 2005 Wimbledon SF vs. Hewitt Thing is, I don't know how to rank the next 5. Any...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

You yourself put it as number 4 and over many earlier matches few years back

Oops. People who post utter garbage and keep changing their story to try and win internet arguments really should try and keep track of their lies.

 

[junior74]

So, winning a crowning Grand Jam title at age 38—by defeating the world #1—and holding the most Jams of all time would not have done it for you?

Spencer has followed tennis closely since the 1850s.
He knows all there is to know about tennis and he is an unbiased tennis historian, first and foremost.

 

[mike danny]

After those debates with the The Guru and other fans forced you to change opinion

Not necessarily him. I mean, it was a great performance, but some are overrating that Fed way too much. Roddick and Hewitt played similar matches against better versions of Fed and all could Murray managed against a 10+ year older Fed was just a couple more games.

And of course, Hewitt and Roddick are considered mugs while Murray is still elevated to ATG status.

 

[ffw2]

Spencer has followed tennis closely since the 1850s. He knows all there is to know about tennis.

lol, he's the gift that keeps on giving

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Maybe Roddick rattled his confidence a bit. In truth, Roddick should have won that match. Fed used to use Roddick as his human blown up doll for years leading up to that. I'm actually more surprised Fed didn't win a US Open after 2008. Fed didn't really have much competition on grass prior to Nadal.. Hewitt/Roddick are good but obviously they are no Nadal/Djokovic. Fed did fall off though after 2008 on grass. 2012 was kind of lucking out with the roof closed. 2017 was a mug draw

 

[RS]

Not necessarily him. I mean, it was a great performance, but some are overrating that Fed way too much. Roddick and Hewitt played similar matches against better versions of Fed and all could Murray managed against a 10+ year older Fed was just a couple more games.

And of course, Hewitt and Roddick are considered mugs while Murray is still elevated to ATG status.

Do you think 2015 Federer is more overrated than underated?

Which other matches did you think Hew/Rod played as well or better than that 2015 Murray vs Fed in slams other than those we talked about?

 

[mike danny]

Do you think 2015 Federer is more overrated than underated?

Which other matches did you think Hew/Rod played as well or better than that 2015 Murray vs Fed in slams other than those we talked about?

He is both overrated and underrated depending on the context.

He was overrated by a majority of posters back in 2015 for obvious reasons, while our pal Gore underrated him in order to elevate the Next Gen.

When some people say that 2015 Fed was better than anyone younger Fed faced, in this case 2015erer is vastly overrated.

2003 Wimb SF and 2005 Wimb SF were just as good efforts from Hewitt and Roddick just like Murray in the 2015 Wimb SF. Everyone knows their better performances in slams so no need to go through them again.

 

[Spencer Gore]

So, winning a crowning Grand Jam title at age 38—by defeating the world #1—and holding the most Jams of all time would not have done it for you?

No. Because I think Laver is the GOAT. You can't be the GOAT if you consistently failed to win the four slams in a row and have a losing H2H against your TWO biggest rivals. It's ludicrous.

 

[RS]

He is both overrated and underrated depending on the context.

He was overrated by a majority of posters back in 2015 for obvious reasons, while our pal Gore underrated him in order to elevate the Next Gen.

When some people say that 2015 Fed was better than anyone younger Fed faced, in this case 2015erer is vastly overrated.

2003 Wimb SF and 2005 Wimb SF were just as good efforts from Hewitt and Roddick just like Murray in the 2015 Wimb SF. Everyone knows their better performances in slams so no need to go through them again.

So I guess that balances it out and makes it even

I was thinking you would mention like the Wim 04 QF , USO 05 SF and USO 06 F as well but you left them out.