Why did Federer's grass game decline so badly after the 2008 final?

[mike danny]

So I guess that balances it out and makes it even

I was thinking you would mention like the Wim 04 QF , USO 05 SF and USO 06 F as well but you left them out.

Wimb 2004 QF is tough to place considering that Hewitt ate 2 bakery products in the same match. If he'd pushed it to 5, yeah, I would place it as better.

USO 2005 SF and USO 2006 F are better performances than 2015 Wimb SF, but they were played on a different surface as well. Better restrict it to grass only.

 

[RS]

Wimb 2004 QF is tough to place considering that Hewitt ate 2 bakery products in the same match. If he'd pushed it to 5, yeah, I would place it as better.

USO 2005 SF and USO 2006 F are better performances than 2015 Wimb SF, but they were played on a different surface as well. Better restrict it to grass only.

So overall you do think Hew and Rod played better than Murray in big slam matches when all 3 were playing well at Wim/USO based on the set of matches I asked

 

[mike danny]

So overall you do think Hew and Rod played better than Murray in big slam matches when all 3 were playing well at Wim/USO based on the set of matches I asked

At Wimb/USO obviously. Murray won only 1 set combined in the 3 matches he played vs Fed at these 2 slams.

 

[RS]

At Wimb/USO obviously. Murray won only 1 set combined in the 3 matches he played vs Fed at these 2 slams.

Would you put the Wim 04/09 finals Rod over AO 12/13 SF Murray?

 

[mike danny]

Would you put the Wim 04/09 finals Rod over AO 12/13 SF Murray?

Both are better than 2013 and 2009 > 2012.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Rank these from worst to best

Roddick Wim 03 SF
Roddick Wim 04 F
Roddick Wim 09 F
Murray Wim 12 F
Murray Wim 15 SF

Master baiter at it again.

 

[Slicehand]

since 08 all his stats declined so... he just stopped winning so much as consistently as peak years

 

[ForehandRF]

Fed played one of Djokodal once on grass between 2009 and 2013 inclusive, and he won lol.

This.Detractors are trying so hard, but still no cigar after all these years lol

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Both are better than 2013 and 2009 > 2012.

You keep feeding RS lol.

 

[mike danny]

You keep feeding RS lol.

I know. Strangely in the mood LOL.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

I know. Strangely in the mood LOL.

 

[metsman]

AFTER 2008 final huh...

 

[nolefam_2024]

Fair enough if you think Murray was better.

That must mean you think 2012 Murray gets to at least set 5 vs 2004 Federer though since Roddick lost in 4 and he was worse than Murray per you.

Yeah 2012 Murray was at good level. I would imagine the same.

 

[Zetty]

No. Because I think Laver is the GOAT. You can't be the GOAT if you consistently failed to win the four slams in a row and have a losing H2H against your TWO biggest rivals. It's ludicrous.

He can't be the GOAT! I said so!

 

[fluffyyelloballz]

This bait is funny tasting.
Federer didn’t look too declined in 2012 when he stomped peak Djokovic and then a Murray on verge of OG and slam 1/3.

 

[metsman]

This bait is funny tasting.
Federer didn’t look too declined in 2012 when he stomped peak Djokovic and then a Murray on verge of OG and slam 1/3.

he was quite terminally declined, says a lot, no?

 

[fluffyyelloballz]

he was quite terminally declined, says a lot, no?

Says much.

 

[zagor]

Before Roger Federer played the 2008 Wimbledon final he had won his previous 10 grass tournaments in a row.

The next ten tournaments, starting with Wimbledon,

Which he won .

Not Fed's fault Nadal chickened out of 2009 Wimbledon.

 

[zagor]

Can someone seriously explain the drop off from 08/09 form to getting breadsticked by Berdych in 2010 though? Was Fed hurt or something?

The rest have decently easy explanations if you pay attention (Tsonga literally serving 83% from sets 3-5, back injury in ‘13, Djokovic being really good on grass). That one loss to Berdych is the weird outlier.

According to Fed himself, he had back and leg injury in 2010 Wimbledon which hampered him. Don't forget he had to comeback from 0-2 down against Falla in the 1st round that year.

That said, Berdman was becoming a tough opponent for Fed in general during that period. He had a 2-0 lead against Fed in 2009 AO for example. Beat him 2012 USO too and Fed was in fine form that year.

 

[wangs78]

Before Roger Federer played the 2008 Wimbledon final he had won his previous 10 grass tournaments in a row.

The next ten tournaments, starting with Wimbledon, saw Federer win only 4 times, losing 6. From Wimbledon 2008 to the present, Federer has won only 9 of the 27 grass court tournaments he has entered.

Why did his form on grass decline so sharply after that day? Was it that the air of invincibility had gone.

Bc following 2008, about 99% of the opponents Fed faced in the quarterfinals or later were younger than him and that became more true with each passing year. The fact that still made it to 6 or so Wimbledon finals since 2008 (only to lose to prime Djokovic 3x, another GOAT who is 6-7 years his junior) is an achievement in and of itself. Too bad we’ll never see how Djokovic does against a GOAT that much younger than him. He’s lucky that way.

 

[abmk]

We are literally saying the same thing.

Due to decline Fed was not so good on grass after 2008.

Except that you are angry that I said it and I'm not angry that I said it.

BOOM!

No, we're not. You also said competition was stepping up and a factor in this. It wasn't.

 

[abmk]

Indeed. Such a drastic decline from the age of 27 is the reason Federer can't be part of any GOAT conversation.

Fed did not decline/did not exit his prime just after 27. He turned 27 in Aug 08, before USO 08. From USO 08 to AO 10, he won 4 out of the 6 slams and was in the final of the other 2 slams, ultra chutiye. Played well in Wim 09 winning it. He only declined/exited his prime after AO 10. that's 28.5 years.

OTOH, Djokovic had won "only" 8 slams before turning 28. Just vultured heavily from 15-21, worst period in open era.
Nadal of course was getting bounced before QF at Wimbledon from 2012-2017. Rosol, Darcis, Kyrgios, Brown, Mueller.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Which he won .

No. He lost the 2008 Wimbledon Final.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Fed did not decline/did not exit his prime just after 27. He turned 27 in Aug 08, before USO 08. From USO 08 to AO 10, he won 4 out of the 6 slams and was in the final of the other 2 slams, ultra chutiye. Played well in Wim 09 winning it. He only declined/exited his prime after AO 10.

So if he didn't decline, why did he go from winning 20 tournaments in 2006/07 to only winning 8 in 2008/09?

The only reasonable explanation is that he faced stronger opposition.

 

[NAS]

He won three Wimbledon after 2008 and made 6 finals that is whole Becker career on Wimbledon

 

[Bartelby]

You can't explain these things. There are too many judgement-laden variables. You can only have an opinion. And we already know your inclinations.

All your data set shows is that Federer won more in one two year period as opposed to another two year period. And there are more than two years after 2008.

So if he didn't decline, why did he go from winning 20 tournaments in 2006/07 to only winning 8 in 2008/09?

The only reasonable explanation is that he faced stronger opposition.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Roddick beat him in 2009 when both were prime form though.

I rate peak Murray higher, but I'm not part of the brigade trying to downplay the quality of Roddick, who was extremely tough opposition.

 

[NAS]

Roddick beat him in 2009 when both were prime form though.

Lol and He beat Roddick in 2006, and he leads in h2h also when Murray was not in prime.
Murray vs Roddick is bad matchup for Roddick as Roddick have to 100 percent every time, he has to fire his first serve with great potency and Murray to play bad for Roddick to win.
If Roddick somehow missed his first serve he is toasted against Murray.
Even in 2009 Wimbledon encounter Murray was serving around 50 perecnt or less than 50 and Roddick 80 percent in first set, the moment Roddick missed his serve in second set and Murray improved his, he won second set.
Murray serving again dipped in last two set and Roddick was over 70 percent( not sure exact numbers) and still set went to two tiebrakers.
Murray is very bad matchup for Roddick everywhere

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Lol and He beat Roddick in 2006, and he leads in h2h also when Murray was not in prime.
Murray vs Roddick is bad matchup for Roddick as Roddick have to 100 percent every time, he has to fire his first serve with great potency and Murray to play bad for Roddick to win.
If Roddick somehow missed his first serve he is toasted against Murray.
Even in 2009 Wimbledon encounter Murray was serving around 50 perecnt or less than 50 and Roddick 80 percent in first set, the moment Roddick missed his serve in second set and Murray improved his, he won second set.
Murray serving again dipped in last two set and Roddick was over 70 percent( not sure exact numbers) and still set went to two tiebrakers.
Murray is very bad matchup for Roddick everywhere

Murray actually had bigger first serve and second serve numbers in W 09/10/11 than he had in some latter periods were Murray was considered better and speed and ace rate also matters not just percentage. Not jumping into the peak vs peak thing but just wanted to point that out.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Which he won .

Not Fed's fault Nadal chickened out of 2009 Wimbledon.

Even if Nadal not injury effected or "ducking" or whatever that would have been a really tough for Nadal to win with a draw of Hewitt/Murray/Roddick and then Federer.

 

[abmk]

So if he didn't decline, why did he go from winning 20 tournaments in 2006/07 to only winning 8 in 2008/09?

The only reasonable explanation is that he faced stronger opposition.

" Such a drastic decline from the age of 27 is the reason Federer can't be part of any GOAT conversation. "

it wasn't a drastic decline from Aug 08 onwards when he won 4 of the next 6 slams, ultra mega chutiye.

yes, he was lesser in 08/09 compared to 04-07, but 04-07 were his best 4 years.

of course cowardly ignorant MRON like you didn't reply to this.

"OTOH, Djokovic had won "only" 8 slams before turning 28. Just vultured heavily from 15-21, worst period in open era.
Nadal of course was getting bounced before QF at Wimbledon from 2012-2017. Rosol, Darcis, Kyrgios, Brown, Mueller. "

 

[RS]

Lol and He beat Roddick in 2006, and he leads in h2h also when Murray was not in prime.
Murray vs Roddick is bad matchup for Roddick as Roddick have to 100 percent every time, he has to fire his first serve with great potency and Murray to play bad for Roddick to win.
If Roddick somehow missed his first serve he is toasted against Murray.
Even in 2009 Wimbledon encounter Murray was serving around 50 perecnt or less than 50 and Roddick 80 percent in first set, the moment Roddick missed his serve in second set and Murray improved his, he won second set.
Murray serving again dipped in last two set and Roddick was over 70 percent( not sure exact numbers) and still set went to two tiebrakers.
Murray is very bad matchup for Roddick everywhere

Both were slumping or too young in 2006. Federer was a even worse matchup for Roddick on any type surface right than Murray right?

Murray didn't serve as well but remember Roddick did not return as well as 2003-2004 so it was a even match for both playing well. Anyway you didn't answer does Murray beat the 2004/2009 Fed or get him to 5 sets?

 

[RS]

Yeah 2012 Murray was at good level. I would imagine the same.

So he loses the same way Rod did in 04? If he gets closer than that and enters a 5th set that means you think 2012 Fed >~ 2004 Fed in that final.

 

[RS]

Both are better than 2013 and 2009 > 2012.

Knew it

 

[NAS]

Murray actually had bigger first serve and second serve numbers in W 09/10/11 than he had in some latter periods were Murray was considered better and speed and ace rate also matters not just percentage. Not jumping into the peak vs peak thing but just wanted to point that out.

It's not about Murray having bigger serve, it's About Roddick serve has to click everytime to beat Murray, Murray was a really bad matchup for him.

 

[NAS]

Both were slumping or too young in 2006. Federer was a even worse matchup for Roddick on any type surface right than Murray right?

Murray didn't serve as well but remember Roddick did not return as well as 2003-2004 so it was a even match for both playing well. Anyway you didn't answer does Murray beat the 2004/2009 Fed or get him to 5 sets?

Bs there are more than half an dozen matches to prove Murray was bad matchup for Murray even outside these Wimbledon matches.
Fed will do good against Murray as he can throw any counterpuncher out of his rhythm with his variety or big hitting.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

It's not about Murray having bigger serve, it's About Roddick serve has to click everytime to beat Murray, Murray was a really bad matchup for him.

I was talking about the Murray serve only compared to his later self as your post talked about serve percentage not interested in a H2H matchup.

 

[NatF]

Declined in 2007, then again in 2010 and then again after 2012.

 

[abmk]

Lol and He beat Roddick in 2006, and he leads in h2h also when Murray was not in prime.
Murray vs Roddick is bad matchup for Roddick as Roddick have to 100 percent every time, he has to fire his first serve with great potency and Murray to play bad for Roddick to win.
If Roddick somehow missed his first serve he is toasted against Murray.
Even in 2009 Wimbledon encounter Murray was serving around 50 perecnt or less than 50 and Roddick 80 percent in first set, the moment Roddick missed his serve in second set and Murray improved his, he won second set.
Murray serving again dipped in last two set and Roddick was over 70 percent( not sure exact numbers) and still set went to two tiebrakers.
Murray is very bad matchup for Roddick everywhere

Murray didn't play bad in Wim 09 semi at all by any means. He played fairly well. Roddick beat him.
Murray's serve%s by set in Wim 09 semi: 45.2%, 52%,58%,47.4%.
Highest% was in the 3rd set. Roddick broke him once in that set and took it.
So your analysis isn't correct re: serve%s.

Murray is not an easy matchup for Roddick, but he isn't anywhere as tough as you are making it out to be when Roddick is in-form.

 

[sredna42]

It's also called other competition stepped up and rose to the occasion.
Namely, Nadal and Djokovic.

Yeah. and what facilitated that.
Manufactured court speed.

 

[Russeljones]

So much ignorance.

 

[RS]

Murray didn't play bad in Wim 09 semi at all by any means. He played fairly well. Roddick beat him.
Murray's serve%s by set in Wim 09 semi: 45.2%, 52%,58%,47.4%.
Highest% was in the 3rd set. Roddick broke him once in that set and took it.
So your analysis isn't correct re: serve%s.

Murray is not an easy matchup for Roddick, but he isn't anywhere as tough as you are making it out to be when Roddick is in-form.

How would you compare Murray of the Wim 09 SF to the Wim 10 SF and the Wim 15 SF levelwise?

 

[NAS]

Murray didn't play bad in Wim 09 semi at all by any means. He played fairly well. Roddick beat him.
Murray's serve%s by set in Wim 09 semi: 45.2%, 52%,58%,47.4%.
Highest% was in the 3rd set. Roddick broke him once in that set and took it.
So your analysis isn't correct re: serve%s.

Murray is not an easy matchup for Roddick, but he isn't anywhere as tough as you are making it out to be when Roddick is in-form.

Oh come on Murray was less than 50 perecnt in two set and one just 50 percent.
Murray is not tough match up like Fed but nobody is.
Murray troubling him before 2009 is enough to prove how difficult he was for A Rod.
Actually you are proving my point, Roddick has to be always in form to beat Murray

 

[RS]

Bs there are more than half an dozen matches to prove Murray was bad matchup for Murray even outside these Wimbledon matches.
Fed will do good against Murray as he can throw any counterpuncher out of his rhythm with his variety or big hitting.

Let's say Murray wins vs Roddick 6 times out of 10 on grass because of the matchup (04/09 F vs 12/16 F) Does Roddick bigger serve + FH at peak level allow him to do better vs top other oppenents on grass since you agree Fed would deal with Murray the same or easier than Roddick?

 

[NAS]

Let's say Murray wins vs Roddick 6 times out of 10 on grass because of the matchup (04/09 F vs 12/16 F) Does Roddick bigger serve + FH at peak level allow him to do better vs top other oppenents on grass since you agree Fed would deal with Murray the same or easier than Roddick?

Fed would deal Murray better

 

[zagor]

No. He lost the 2008 Wimbledon Final.

The title of the thread "Why did Federer's grass game decline so badly after the 2008 final?"

Dude won the very next Wimbledon.

 

[zagor]

Even if Nadal not injury effected or "ducking" or whatever that would have been a really tough for Nadal to win with a draw of Hewitt/Murray/Roddick and then Federer.

Yes, one look at the draw and he went - no mas.

Trolling aside, yeah Nadal very rarely navigated a tough on draw on HC/grass successfully. He can beat any one tough opponent because his overall peak level is so high but he very much struggles when it's more than one. It's also one of the main reasons he never won YEC (that and the low bounce).

 

[zagor]

Let's say Murray wins vs Roddick 6 times out of 10 on grass because of the matchup (04/09 F vs 12/16 F) Does Roddick bigger serve + FH at peak level allow him to do better vs top other oppenents on grass since you agree Fed would deal with Murray the same or easier than Roddick?

It's possible, look how much Stan struggled against Murray at the FO for example. Yet he beat Novak in the final there (and in one of Novak's best overall seasons).

All of them at their best, I do believe Roddick would have a better chance on grass against the greats just because he could take the racquet away even from them, compared to Murray who'll let them dictate.

Yet in a direct match-up Murray's ROS will make life hard for any big server because he's so good at getting big serves back (probably the best I've seen). Look how he manhandled Kyrgios also, who gets up for playing top players and gave some trouble to the big 3.

 

[Hitman]

The title of the thread "Why did Federer's grass game decline so badly after the 2008 final?"

Dude won the very next Wimbledon.

Looks like OP doesn't even understand his own thread.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

It's also called other competition stepped up and rose to the occasion.
Namely, Nadal and Djokovic.

He lost to other players though, like Tsonga, Berdych, Stakhovsky, and almost losing to Falla and Benneteau. He didn't lose to Nadal again after that epic final and although he lost several times to Djokovic the first one was six years after 2008.