Oh no doubt true. Though I have to say, Martina Hingis has always been my favorite female player, and in some ways my favorite player period - the controversies only making her more so when I was in my own rebellious teenage years. I kind of loved how she courted controversy so effortlessly - it definitely upended her that day in Paris, and for some time thereafter - recall at Wimbledon a few weeks later she crashed out as the #1 seed in the first round. But I rather liked the Hingis of the next couple of years. She reigned as #1 most of the time, but at the majors the power game of Venus, Serena, Davenport and Caprati - or more to the point, having to battle through multiples of those rivals, would do her in. Nevertheless some tremendous matches were had as Martina angled to see if all her on-court tactical brilliance and near bottomless shanties of guile could prevail. Later on in the 2010s she had a pretty wholehearted comeback, isolated to double play, where she ran through an astonishing streak of major wins - taking her total up to something like 22 or so (across all three disciplines). In this way she kind of reminded me of Shawn Michaels’ second run - where she was in some ways reformed from her wild, unhinged youthful years into something of an esteemed elder statesman. And yet…there was still something conniving behind the eyes. Several of her doubles relationships seemed to blow up in less than congenial manners. Still, Hingis rode typically from strength to strength. There was also that amazing Olympic moment, where she struck an opponent with a volley hard enough to break an orbital bone…and hardly seeming broken up about that! I loved this final act of the Hingis career too as she did all of his having already been elected to the Hall of Fame - and among great champion athletes making comebacks, I always thought there couldn’t be any more cool, more intimidating setup than to be introduced in the walk-on to the court as the multi-time major champion, the reigning world #1, but then also…Hall of Fame member ____. Like, that has to really make your opponent feel in over their head! Lol.
Why did Hingis and Graf hate each other
- Thread starter insideoutforehanders
- Start date
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Hingis could be a brat in her first career, however, her second career as an all time great doubles player showed great maturity.
I've never understood the dislike for Hingis given she played such a beautiful game. It's similar to the hatred shown to Radwanska by uber Serena Williams fanatics - they couldn't believe anyone could appreciate Radwanska's skills over their deity.
I've never understood the dislike for Hingis given she played such a beautiful game. It's similar to the hatred shown to Radwanska by uber Serena Williams fanatics - they couldn't believe anyone could appreciate Radwanska's skills over their deity.
medieval_remnant
Rookie
Hingis was the female Gene Meyer
EvonneFedererBorgster
Semi-Pro
Once Martina started to disappear in 2002, I began to miss her like crazy. 2003 began a period of blah tennis for me without her. Also Monica and Jennifer (+ Mary) disappeared around the same period in 2003 + 2004. I loved Mauresmo, her versatility and her battles against new villain Justine Henin Hardenne, but even with Amelie and Justine’s beautiful games, I still missed Hingis. When she finally came back at the 2006 Aussie I was thrilled. The first few months of that comeback were so exciting and promising. Then it seemed like she plateaued and 2007 wasn’t so great since she really wasn’t that visible, losing in early rounds at the majors. She was an absolute singular icon. She was so easy to hate and so very easy on the eyes, so much finesse and guile to admire. Probably The Greatest Brat of All Time. Definitely the Greatest 16 Year-old of All Time. 1997 was absolutely incredible and so fascinating to watch how she could confuse and frustrate nearly every single person she played. Unfortunately she never faced Steffi that year, but I assume she would have won anyway with Graf’s knee injury and ailments. It would have been amazing to see 1996 Graf face off all year with 1997 Hingis!
I tend to acknowledge her as preeminent in two categories - that being I think of her as the greatest ‘prodigy’ talent, male or female - that being, as was just cited, her incredible polished talent at a remarkable young age. Though I recognize there is probably some tremendous competition in this, especially other women. Secondly I think of her as the highest IQ level player ever. Just an incredible tactician on the court, singles or doubles. Greatest Brat though…as was just cited, might be another one that goes to her. Certainly that comes down to her and McEnroe…they were quite different in this regard. I do think she was all for leaning into her ‘heel persona’ in ways McEnroe never particularly cared for.
I think her main competition in the prodigy category would be Connolly, who went 48-3 in 1951, with all matches played at age 16, including winning the U.S. National Championships by beating Gibson, Hart, and Fry among others.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I don't think the aloof Graf had many friends on tour but Hingis had a big mouth. She dissed her own doubles partner, Jana Novotna, calling her "old and slow".
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
I was super excited about her 2006 comeback and it started off promising, although she had difficulty breaking through against the Big 4 (Hingis, Clisters, Sharapova, Mauresmo) of the time. I was hopeful 2007 could even maybe go to the next level, but unfortunately injuries got in the way, and she was forced to retire in semi humiliation with the pot charge. It is interesting how while when she first started I appreciated her talent and loved her dominance getting crushed in 98, then she became a more sympathetic figure to me when she went on that long slamless streak starting in mid 99 despite spending a lot of it ranked #1. Then really was rooting for her in her comeback.
I do think she was one of the most naturally talented players the sport has seen along with Goolagong, Mandlikova, and a few others. I do think her achievements never came close to reaching her talent. There are a lot of reasons for that, some of it her own hubris and arrogance that led to the famed 99 RG final loss, which shockingly would lead to her never winning a slam again (even after having 4 match points in the 2002 Australian Open final), some of it bad luck, and some of it the extreme misfortune of being at probably the overall strongest and deepest womens field ever, and the all time height of the power game in the mid 98-early 2000s period. The power game being the thing that was hardest for her game, and which all agree reached its all time heigh in the 98-2005 (well except for Hard Court who I am sure will be in here soon how prime King, prime Goolagong, and prime Wade had the most powerful forehands and backhands in history, LOL).
Today I do remember her as a special player and talent, a great singles player, and even greater doubles player, and one of the all time teen prodigies. I also remember her as someone who had to eat some humble pie and learned some tough life lessons about overconfidence, arrogance, and disrespect. I do still laugh at the ultimate irony that Steffi Graf won a slam later than her.
Pheasant
Legend
Hingis was disrespectful of Graf’s accomplishments is why Graf got so angry. Hingis said that her era was better and more advanced than when Graf came up. So it is much harder to win. This ticked off Graf big time. And honestly, it ticked me off too. Looking back, Martina was just a teenager when she said that. I later enjoyed her brand of tennis. But as a Steffi fan, I couldn’t stand Hingis in the mid-to-late 1990s. I also couldn’t stand Seles; only due to her grunting and her challenging Steffi’s beautiful game so much. Steffi was the Federer of the WTA back then. But I’ve really learned to respect Seles. She did nothing wrong.
pierceforehands
Professional
Actually Graf was quite well liked on tour. Sanchez and Sabatini both considered her a close friend, which in the case of Sabatini made me laugh since she disrespected Sabatini and treated her like garbage constantly, maybe that is a sign Gaby is overall nice but anyway. Novotna and her generally got along well. Capriati never had a bad thing to say about her, despite her 1-10 record vs Graf. Huber spoke positively about her as a role model, both as a player and person. She was best friends with people like Stubbs, Gorachetgui, Tarabini, and was very good friends with Conchita Martinez. She was friends with Fernandez in the early 90s, but I think their friendship tailed off after that. Even Tauziat, the disgusting cow who hates everyone, spoke positively about her in her disgusting book. The only people who didn't like her were Navratilova and Seles, but pre stabbing Seles was about the most hated player (both by fans and other players) fairly or not, on tour, and Navratilova has issues with anyone who challenges her self perceived GOAT status.
Hingis's comments about Novotna are hilarious when Novotna beat her in straight sets in the Wimbledon semis only 6 months earlier when trying to defend her title, and had her beat in the US Open semis too before a big choke at the end. She is demeaning herself that someone "old and slow" gave her so much trouble. Funny too someone who is hardly famous for their firepower and athleticsm is mocking another top player being "old, slow paced, and slow", something Hingis herself was considered for elite player standards minus the old part, is dissing another finesse, variety, and all court based player; who is also faster in terms of sheer foot speed than her, and with a more powerful serve than she ever had. Her tone deafness and stupidity in her early years was hilarious. Serena put it best "Martina needs to shut her mouth more, I think a lot of it comes from not having a formal education." LOL, meeeooooww.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Seles said that she and Graf were very different people. I didn't really sense any hate there. It might be different with their fans. Seles said that it was very unfortunate that the rivalry was cut short.
As I've said before on these forums, Seles was always diplomatic in her autobiographies about other players, not going against that often. Seles said that Manuela Maleeva was very cold to her when they met at 1989 Washington, that she (Seles) had tensions with Zina Garrison at the time of their 1989 French Open third round match, after Seles threw flowers that were handed to her into the crowd, but the only player that I sensed that Seles proper disliked at the time was Tauziat. Tauziat was the only player who complained about Seles' grunting before around 1992 Wimbledon, doing so even as early as 1990, and doing it again at the time of their 1992 Wimbledon quarter final, with Tauziat not holding back words of criticism in the pressers. Seles would basically say at 1992 Wimbledon "Andre Agassi grunts, so does Jimmy Connors" and was puzzled at the criticism.
As I've said before on these forums, Seles was always diplomatic in her autobiographies about other players, not going against that often. Seles said that Manuela Maleeva was very cold to her when they met at 1989 Washington, that she (Seles) had tensions with Zina Garrison at the time of their 1989 French Open third round match, after Seles threw flowers that were handed to her into the crowd, but the only player that I sensed that Seles proper disliked at the time was Tauziat. Tauziat was the only player who complained about Seles' grunting before around 1992 Wimbledon, doing so even as early as 1990, and doing it again at the time of their 1992 Wimbledon quarter final, with Tauziat not holding back words of criticism in the pressers. Seles would basically say at 1992 Wimbledon "Andre Agassi grunts, so does Jimmy Connors" and was puzzled at the criticism.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Oh yes, and there's also Monica Seles and Helen Kelesi. They were double partners for a while in 1989 and 1990, including winning the 1990 Italian Open title (in what was arguably Seles' peak tournament ever). Seles said that Kelesi was really upset when Seles decided on Betsy Nagelsen as her doubles partner for the 1990 French Open. Seles and Nagelsen got to the Round of 16, where they lost to Zvereva and Neiland. Kelesi told Seles that she was angry and determined to beat her in their 1990 French Open second round match. Seles beat Kelesi 4-6, 6-4, 6-4.
EvonneFedererBorgster
Semi-Pro
Helen was such a hoot!
pierceforehands
Professional
At the Quebec City event in 1993 Pam Shriver was so annoyed with Kelesi she walked right off court and to the bar to get a drink and Helen walked off court and insisted Pam come back on court to finish the match (which Helen won).
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Legend
This is a great thread. Really enjoyed this.
Musterrific
Hall of Fame
She was a total hot head. Collins might be the modern equivalent of her.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
That's a good comparison.
pierceforehands
Professional
In fairness I think her super spirited and feisty personality served her well. She reached a career high of #13 which lets face it very high for someone of her pretty modest talent. I think even her countrywomen Patricia Hy Boulais was more talented than her, but had an inferior career, even with Helen's major health problems including a near fatal brain tumor, ending her career very early.
And she was one of the few super entertaining and controversial personalities on tour by that point which had already gone the overly "nice nice" route with lame sponsors like Kraft. I already was missing the 70s and 80s when McEnroe, Connors, Navratilova, Evert, King, Shriver, Borg outright bullied some of their opponents with intimidation and their general force of personality and the whole unofficial tour heirarchy at the time (one reason Austin did fairly well vs Martina and Chris was she was one of the few who did not give a sh1t about that).
And she was one of the few super entertaining and controversial personalities on tour by that point which had already gone the overly "nice nice" route with lame sponsors like Kraft. I already was missing the 70s and 80s when McEnroe, Connors, Navratilova, Evert, King, Shriver, Borg outright bullied some of their opponents with intimidation and their general force of personality and the whole unofficial tour heirarchy at the time (one reason Austin did fairly well vs Martina and Chris was she was one of the few who did not give a sh1t about that).
I only read one of Monica's bios and it would have been her first because it took her from her beginnings through her stabbing and recovery efforts but there was almost nothing about her return. I was shocked with how incredibly little she discussed the other players on the tour. If you were to compare it to the bios of prior champions like King or Goolagong or Wade or Evert or Martina and how much they discussed the games and personalities and experiences with each other, it seemed barren, indifferent almost narcissistic.
She didn't say much bad, but then she didn't say much at all. I think it's a testament to how very differently professional tennis players are tought to think about each other as time went on. And how little many of them played doubles with/ against each other in Monica's day.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Monica's first autobiography was "From Fear to Victory", which goes up to 1996. It went into detail about the stabbing and its aftermath in particular, and her pre-stabbing life. If I remember right, it started with the stabbing and Parche's motivation/history, and then flashed back to earlier times for a while. Most of the things about other players that I mentioned were in this book, or stated a bit more obviously than in her second autobiography.
Her second autobiography was "Getting a Grip: On My Body, My Mind, My Self", released in 2009, which was less of a rollercoaster than the first but more comprehensive in many ways. In this, she goes into detailed about her eating issues as well.
At tournaments, across the world, Graf was very popular. Sania Mirza has commented on her popularity in India, Kamiko Date on her popularity in Japan. Steffi was Henin's and Clijster's idol. ... In the US, I saw her play in person at various venues. She was always the main draw. She sold tickets. Casual fans would come to watch her play. One year at IW, I overheard the wife of an older couple marveling at the fact that Steffi moved even faster than she does on TV. ... Steffi had a mystique, created in large part by her amazing fitness and athleticism. She was good with fans too --- autographs, live chats on AOL fan forums, and practicing in front of fans. After she retired, Ion Tiriac was right to suggest that Steffi would sell more tickets at Madrid than Serena. Outside of the US, Serena's popularity never matched Steffi's.
EvonneFedererBorgster
Semi-Pro
Steffi was a superstar like only a few others - Bjorn, Chris, Serena, Venus, Martina N, BJK, Jimmy, Mac, Andre, the three Goats, Monica, Boris and Ashe. That’s a big List but the air is rarified up there.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Whilst her accomplishments don't match the truly great, there's no doubt Venus remains a draw even today. Hence the WTA still obsessively flogging a dead horse to glean publicity. Possibly because the top players now, outside Gauff and Andreeva, are a difficult sell.
Sabalenka, a shrieking banshee that seems to have an obsessive need to both shoot herself in the foot AND crave attention.
Swiatek is just odd and has that doping black mark.
Rybakina, almost robotic, but my personal preference amongst the top players as she just gets on with it, coaching scandal aside.
Pegula, seems decent, decent but non explosive game. Plus hard to push a narrative for a billionaire's daughter.
Gauff, pushed especially as an American but still brittle.
Just my take.
Navratilova also complained to the Wimbledon officials about Seles grunting. The Seles game was thrown off a bit not being able to grunt towards the end of that Wimbledon.
Yah, the personal affability may be lacking in some of today's players. I like Gauff though. Never cared for Steffi much. Surprised Hingis had (has?) such awful views! I was OK w/Seles, but she was an odd duck too. Truly, they all made MN look better. The ladies of the 70's thru early 80's were a more likeable bunch. Serena and Venus had their moments when they were younger, but I think they matured nicely and got more savvy in how they faced the public (and the media)
Grafil Injection
Legend
There's a strong case to say that Saba's grunts are illegal now. She often does a secondary celebration grunt even before a point is over. It's bad enough when some amateur does it against me, and I certainly wouldn't go to a Saba game without ear-muffs.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
I'm a Hingis fan and especially enjoyed her latter doubles career.
Went out at No.1. Not too shabby.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
And then apologized to Seles after their semi final match backstage.
In the final is when Seles kept as quiet as a mouse, not before. I do wonder if someone threatened her with something like "Don't you dare ruin the special occasion of the final by making those horrible noises, do you hear?"
Before the final, Seles' attitude was basically defiance to all the criticisms.
MissileBackHand99
Professional
Yup and that is precisely why so many other players despised her in the late-90s and early 00s. Hingis had a pretentious and bratty attitude, along with being a nasty person. Loved when players would return the same energy to her that she gave to them. I just know the locker room erupted in cheers when Capriati straight setted her in the 2001 AO Finals, and even moreso when Capriati snatched a seemingly sure win from Hingis in the '02 AO Finals
That Wimbledon was played during the Yugoslavia civil war. I read that Seles was receiving death threats from Serbia haters. It seems that part of today's Hungary was somehow aligned with Serbia.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Yes. During 1992 Wimbledon, Goran Ivanisevic accused her of running off to America. They both used to be students of Jelena Gencic for much of the 1980s.
Seles was from Novi Sad, a part of Serbia in Yugoslavia, but her family are ethnic Hungarians.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Yes, she is a vile person (yet her racism is ignored by some of the worst of her defenders...which should come as no surprise in the case of a couple of people) and a thuggish criminal when one considers the violent actions of Hingis and her Ma Barker-esque mother outside of the court.
Hingis' overrated "skill" earned the exposure it deserved--she was sandwiched between the GOAT Graf and the dawn of the Williams sisters' great revolutionizing of the game. Looking in either direction in the timeline, Hingis appeared to be some loud, entitled propagandist who lacked the ability to--at least--back up her verbal BS and rise to those higher levels (well, it was clear she would never win the Grand Slam, so the Graf level was far beyond her "skills"). Additionally, few tennis matches were as beautiful, thrilling and satisfying as the 1999 French Open final, where Graf's talents and mastery of the game crushed the self-inflated Hingis for the entire tennis world to see...along with Hingis' tears, in the wake of all of her ****ty comments about Graf. Glorious final which sent a permanent message to and mark on Hingis' record.
Martin J
Hall of Fame
Which was, of course, ridiculous, since she moved to the US in the mid 80s (even though she continued playing for Yugoslavia and later Serbia & Montenegro). But, then again, Goran was never the smartest kid in class.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Goran was often carrying guns on him at the time, apparently. While he boldly stepped forward and basically donned the Croatian flag in 1991, he also had a Serbian girlfriend, so he had potential enemies even in the ultra-nationalist Croatian camp as well as in the Milosevic Serbian camp. I can see why he might be jealous a bit of Seles being away from it in the US. But I mean, what could she do? She's a tennis player, had lived in the US since 1986, and her former home was now war ravaged.
Martin J
Hall of Fame
I am not convinced that his motives were inspired solely by the Balkan chaos at that time (it probably only amplified his inner craziness), he tried to bully her (half-jokingly) even when they were kids, according to Jelena Gencic, but Monika never really payed much attention, she was totally focused on tennis (even from the youngest age). My impression is that Goran was simply a jerk back in the day, though he's definitely changed since.
goran is another player who I enjoyed watching but he made awful homophobic statements. Some things are best left unsaid.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
You mean about the linesman with the long hair, regarding the fourth set of the 2001 Wimbledon final? Agassi is certainly guilty of similar, then.
Martin J
Hall of Fame
The Balkans is, in general, a very conservative environment and people here (I can speak for former Yugoslavia) had been taught for years that homosexuality is either an illness - in a negative sense - or a lack of morality and/or masculinity, so he probably inherited the same values from an early age. On the other hand, you would expect from a world class athlete, thanks to his experience, traveling, exposure, to develop a broader perspective on the matter. I don't know when and what exactly he said, but I'm not really surprised.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It was after the 2001 Wimbledon final, when he was asked in the presser about the out call during the fourth set (where Ivanisevic was broken) and kicked the net. He said about the centre linesman "He had all this long hair down his face, like a f****tt". GLAAD were annoyed with the comments, but Ivanisevic said that it was just frustrated words and that he didn't have anything against homosexuals.
It's like Hewitt calling the umpire a "spastic". It's schoolyard stuff.
Martin J
Hall of Fame
Yeah, I've noticed that you like "some spice".
EDIT: I misread your post, I read "I like when Hewitt called..".
I AGREE! Hingis, like Hewitt, were slam winners between eras of ATG players. The only time I ever rooted for Graf was after the Hingis temper tantrum in their FO final.
insideoutforehanders
Professional
While this is true I strongly oppose the people who imply Hewitt and Hingis were overachievers, particularly Hingis. I think they were anything but. And if they were lucky to peak briefly in a transition period, they were equally unlucky in other ways. Injuries for both. In Hingis's game being in her prime when the all time height of the power game still to this date existed (mid 98-2003) where in any other time she wins numerous more majors in the 98-2002 period. In Hewitt's case of course a guy named Federer peaking while he was still in his prime.
Also thinking comparatively. Hewitt has only 2 slams, the same number as Kafelnikov. Who is clearly an inferior player to Hewitt, and who Hewitt owns 7-1 head to head. Or Hingis having only 1 more slam than Sanchez Vicario, who while I think gets underrated and disrespected often, is still clearly less talented than Hingis and is 2-18 vs Hingis head to head, so hard to call Hingis an overachieve when she managed only 1 more slam than Sanchez.
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
Hingis 2000 imho is the best year of a female player without winning a slam. Really unlucky.
insideoutforehanders
Professional
Agreed, but she was still a big part of making that year such a classic year. A lot of players played a role in that, but in no particular order Davenport, Hingis, Venus, and probably Pierce (her RG title was a favorite moment in the sport) by far played the biggest ones.
MissileBackHand99
Professional
Goran was what, 29 in 2001?? He could've thought of almost anything else to call that linesman other than THE slur towards LGBTQ+ ppl. Someone that's a teenager, I can HALFWAY excuse (not a fully developed brain or emotional controls yet)...but not someone damn near 30. That was an UGLY, DISGUSTING moment for Goran (who was lucky to even be in that Final, as Henman had him on the ropes in the SFs before multiple rain delays)
Mustard
Bionic Poster
I thought Ivanisevic outplayed Henman up to 7-5, 6-6 (4-2 Ivanisevic in the tiebreak). Then the pendulum swung violently the other way.
The first rain delay saved Ivanisevic (and I think he needed it overnight as well, which he got). I don't think the rain delay on the Saturday benefitted either of them.
insideoutforehanders
Professional
Well yes in fairness Ivanisevic should be judged atleast but likely in fact more harshly for blatant bigotry than a teenaged Hingis. To do otherwise is either blatant sexist standards (which in fairness are a sadly very real thing still today), or bias against Hingis due ti her overall "brat" persona. A teenager if literal high school age it is atleast more partly understandable (think how actual high schoolers often behave) than a fully grown adult almost a decade into full adulthood.
