Why did I lose? (vid of me vs #2 player in club ladder)

sez

Semi-Pro
#1
Been a long season, tried to take a top ladder spot and lost this match. I uploaded the first set, I had multiple break points, consistently getting into his serve but couldn't convert. He had 1/1 break pt converted for what its worth.

I'm in the pink.


This is Canada, so don't ask for a NTRP, but we are both top 5 in the ladder and my opponent won the club singles tournament so basically peak 3.0 ;)

Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
Also Its 10 degrees cold windy so I'm at like 80%. I included every single point even his last service game where I just mentally gave up and was thinking ahead to set 2.
 
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#2
You would have to wait for Chastennis to come over and break down your footage into frame by frame stills which could throw more light on technique. Looking at just the footage in real time and the number of occasions when you either sprayed or netted groundies that were in the slot, you either tightened up or took your eyes off the ball. Which are the most common rec player issues in tournaments. Maybe you told yourself you need to win this to top the ladder? In which case had you treated it as just another set, you might have played more freely.
 

FiReFTW

Hall of Fame
#3
3.0? Is this a joke?

I agree with Dolgopolov, seems like you got tight.

Your serve seemed to have worked pretty well, seems like you were more relaxed during it, but once the points started you got tight quite alot, many times looked afraid to swing fast but kind of held back in fear of overhitting, and in process lost control ironically.
 
#4
What I saw was
-you made more errors
-he got into your bh more frequently
-his approach to your bh was almost a guaranteed point

In general, he was more consistent and you made too many mistakes when you did get opportunities.

Things that can help in the short term is improving your 1st serve consistency and more aggressiveness on short balls. You are making more mistakes anyway. So, at least get more chances to win the point. There was one point, where he gave you a short ball and you still didn’t smash it, rather he lobbed you on it.

In the long term, your bh, specifically a drive.
 

Zoolander

Hall of Fame
#5
3.0? Is this a joke?

I agree with Dolgopolov, seems like you got tight.

Your serve seemed to have worked pretty well, seems like you were more relaxed during it, but once the points started you got tight quite alot, many times looked afraid to swing fast but kind of held back in fear of overhitting, and in process lost control ironically.
I don’t know Ntrp but I don’t imagine they are 3.0, what are they? 4.0?
 
#6
It looked like his serve got better towards the end (or they're just first serves going in) and you made ROS errors. Aim for safer targets (down the middle) and you could back up as well.

You didn't approach the net much even though he was floating returns and I think he would be in trouble if you were patient and hit a decent approach to his backhand side. Also, how about working on patterns to expose his backhand side more.
 
#7
Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
You have good movement and anticipation; you keep active on your feet

Take stats on your match. In particular, count unforced errors and winners/forcing shots [ones that either didn't come back or set you up for an easy putaway] and look at the differential [or the ratio]: I think the most obvious improvement could come in improving this #, as your technique seems pretty solid.

What strategy did you have going in to the match? I didn't sense a particular pattern that you followed [ie Wardlaw].

There wasn't much variety [ie slice, off-speed, moonball]; both of you hit basically the same ball the entire time. I would have mixed things up a bit to test what he doesn't like.

Both of you did pretty well at net but neither of you seemed eager to come in.
 

Dragy

Professional
#9
You seem to hug the baseline, but you both tend to make errors when the ball comes deeper (including returns of better serves) and not take advantage of taking time away from your opponent - lots of shots come down the middle, he’s not moving at all.
So it’s possible you can cut on your errors if you adjust better up/down, including receiving first serve deeper and retreating against harder shots, and being more aggressive in terms of placement on shorter balls you can comfortably pick on the rise. Not just straight winners you do, but more of point construction, pressure build-up.
I dunno if it’s being tight, but it looks you’re a tad rigid at the baseline staying in some inflexible mode of hitting. Despite taking net approach decisions every now and then.
 

sez

Semi-Pro
#11
..
So it’s possible you can cut on your errors if you adjust better up/down, including receiving first serve deeper and retreating against harder shots, and being more aggressive in terms of placement on shorter balls you can comfortably pick on the rise. Not just straight winners you do, but more of point construction, pressure build-up.
I dunno if it’s being tight, but it looks you’re a tad rigid at the baseline staying in some inflexible mode of hitting. Despite taking net approach decisions every now and then.
I didn't want him serving and volleying but maybe was too aggressive in my return stance. What do you mean by inflexible modes of hitting?

You have good movement and anticipation; you keep active on your feet

Take stats on your match. In particular, count unforced errors and winners/forcing shots [ones that either didn't come back or set you up for an easy putaway] and look at the differential [or the ratio]: I think the most obvious improvement could come in improving this #, as your technique seems pretty solid.

What strategy did you have going in to the match? I didn't sense a particular pattern that you followed [ie Wardlaw].

There wasn't much variety [ie slice, off-speed, moonball]; both of you hit basically the same ball the entire time. I would have mixed things up a bit to test what he doesn't like.

Both of you did pretty well at net but neither of you seemed eager to come in.
Yha very few forced errors or winners most of my error seem to be centered around when I'm approaching (hitting long) or returning serve. I don't like the net might be the issue since Im not comfortable there and my slice is dogshit.
 
#13
@sez
Just comparing the two of you: guy in pink hugs the baseline more effectively, you seem to drift back more

You seem to fall back on your shots a lot. Maybe you need to practice hitting on the rise to keep yoyr weight over or into the shot. He stays more balanced.
 
#14
One thing I noticed is that, in pressured situations (i.e. when you are pulled wide or when he approaches), you might be a) going for too much or b) not anticipating his play early enough to set up properly.

On the other hand, your opponent seems to be able to neutralize those pressure situations better and also get to the ball earlier.

One drill my coach uses to address this, is to feed wide angle balls on both sides of the court so I am used to executing shots when I am exhausted and under pressure.
 

sez

Semi-Pro
#15
and you should post your vid to demo to OP how he should model his footwork. your lunge step is a game changer.
You're referring to my running forehand footwork? like at 1:07 in the video I think trying to hit an open forehand on the run. What do you mean by lunge step. @nytennisaddict @2good4U

@sez
Just comparing the two of you: guy in pink hugs the baseline more effectively, you seem to drift back more
You seem to fall back on your shots a lot. Maybe you need to practice hitting on the rise to keep yoyr weight over or into the shot. He stays more balanced.
I'm the one in Pink who lost :( Any tips for me. My opponent is veyr fast so he can get away with that kinda play.

One thing I noticed is that, in pressured situations (i.e. when you are pulled wide or when he approaches), you might be a) going for too much or b) not anticipating his play early enough to set up properly.
On the other hand, your opponent seems to be able to neutralize those pressure situations better and also get to the ball earlier.
One drill my coach uses to address this, is to feed wide angle balls on both sides of the court so I am used to executing shots when I am exhausted and under pressure.
Will try that drill. I definitely struggle when I have less time.
 
#17
@sez

Nice playing! You got game! :)

Now onto the reasons why you lost?

1. You don’t have a 2hfh which we all know is the fh of the future.
2. You split step on every shot. This hopping around like a goat is a waste of energy.

With a 2hfh and no split step you would have won if this match was being played in Poland. ;)
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#18
Been a long season, tried to take a top ladder spot and lost this match. I uploaded the first set, I had multiple break points, consistently getting into his serve but couldn't convert. He had 1/1 break pt converted for what its worth.

I'm in the pink.


This is Canada, so don't ask for a NTRP, but we are both top 5 in the ladder and my opponent won the club singles tournament so basically peak 3.0 ;)

Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
Also Its 10 degrees cold windy so I'm at like 80%. I included every single point even his last service game where I just mentally gave up and was thinking ahead to set 2.
You make a lot of UE, compared to how many winners you hit.

I would dial it back and go for safer targets, until you get a short ball that you can be more agressive with.

Your opponent wasn't really doing much to hurt you, other than occasionally coming into net. Looks to me like you basically beat yourself, and rely a little too much on free points on your serve.
 
#19
What jumped out at me is that you are very quick and have good footwork but you often manage to still be in a suboptimal or awkward position to hit the ball. IOW you get there but then don't get your stance organized efficiently before hitting. You look hurried and have to arm a lot of shots.
 
#20
Been a long season, tried to take a top ladder spot and lost this match. I uploaded the first set, I had multiple break points, consistently getting into his serve but couldn't convert. He had 1/1 break pt converted for what its worth.

I'm in the pink.


This is Canada, so don't ask for a NTRP, but we are both top 5 in the ladder and my opponent won the club singles tournament so basically peak 3.0 ;)

Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
Also Its 10 degrees cold windy so I'm at like 80%. I included every single point even his last service game where I just mentally gave up and was thinking ahead to set 2.

You need to stop trying to hit good-looking shots and posing after you hit them. Stop trying to hit hard and concentrate on hitting deep. Stop running around your backhand. Stop using a two-handed backhand and play like a man, not like a child. Come to the net and hit slice approach shots. Learn how to volley.
 
#21
Been a long season, tried to take a top ladder spot and lost this match. I uploaded the first set, I had multiple break points, consistently getting into his serve but couldn't convert. He had 1/1 break pt converted for what its worth.

I'm in the pink.


This is Canada, so don't ask for a NTRP, but we are both top 5 in the ladder and my opponent won the club singles tournament so basically peak 3.0 ;)

Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
Also Its 10 degrees cold windy so I'm at like 80%. I included every single point even his last service game where I just mentally gave up and was thinking ahead to set 2.
Maybe come in more when you hit a deep shot. He stays way back cause he knows your not going to hit anything short, he doesn't feel any pressure on your deep balls. You play up on the baseline cause he will draw you in eventually and you need to be ready, but your feeling pressure. He's able to slice and keep the ball low causing you to swing up and long. Best to return slice with slice. Develop more consistency, keep eye on the ball, hit a heavy spin ball using lag
 
#22
Great athletic play. Ty for sharing. He has a bigger more consistent fh and serve. You weren't able to hang with his heavier shots-- generating lots of UEs. Your form looks ok but need more net clearance, more topspin to bring ball down in. You either sailed them way long or dumped into net. Also you were going for too much while returning. Need to just get ball in play. Then when serving , if he he blocked back a return, often you d try to do too much with it
 
#23
Great athletic play. Ty for sharing. He has a bigger more consistent fh and serve. You weren't able to hang with his heavier shots-- generating lots of UEs. Your form looks ok but need more net clearance, more topspin to bring ball down in. You either sailed them way long or dumped into net. Also you were going for too much while returning. Need to just get ball in play. Then when serving , if he he blocked back a return, often you d try to do too much with it.
 
#24
You need to stop trying to hit good-looking shots and posing after you hit them. Stop trying to hit hard and concentrate on hitting deep. Stop running around your backhand. Stop using a two-handed backhand and play like a man, not like a child. Come to the net and hit slice approach shots. Learn how to volley.
Think you need to show him how it’s done with a video of your play!
 
#25
You're referring to my running forehand footwork? like at 1:07 in the video I think trying to hit an open forehand on the run. What do you mean by lunge step. @nytennisaddict @2good4U
i'll let you decide what i mean.. :p

overall, nice hitting...
IMO you just overhit on alot of shots... whereas the other guy was content to neutralize more from far back behind the baseline... wait for a short ball, then come in and attack the net.
maybe you were pressing because you were getting tired, or maybe because he was getting back shots that would win you points against lesser opponents?
seemed like there were opportunities to attack the net yourself... but you were content to try beating him from the baseline? similar you got some sitters, but didn't always take advantage of them.
maybe his "neutral ball" rally is generally better than yours (ie better placed and generally deeper)?

overall great hitting,
 

Dragy

Professional
#26
What do you mean by inflexible modes of hitting?
You seem to me doing almost same thing on all your shots, you don’t adjust apart from some shorter balls attacks. You hug the baseline and hit form there, mostly somewhere down the middle with same intensity, be the ball faster, slower, deeper, harder to reach. It could be ok, but:
- He isn’t bothered by your shots most of the time.
- You make errors.
I suggest that if you get a more comfortable ball, you hit it early and with more offensive placement. Not going for outright winner, but building up pressure. If you get a deep ball to the corner, you don’t just run along the baseline (like you did at least once), but fall back to have more time for better response.
Once again, hugging the baseline might be a decent strategy, but it didn’t work for you in this match, so more effort needed to neutralize his offense and build your own.
 
#27
I'd say this is at least 4.5. What I saw was too many UE on balls that shouldn't have given you much trouble. Uncharacteristic mishits. I wonder what was going on in your head during the match. Where you nervous, tight, thinking too much, taking your eye off the ball? Too me the mistakes were more a product of focus issues than technique or strategy. You seemed to be in the right place and hitting the right ball but just mishit it too many times.

Really good playing by both of you, good video.
 
#28
i'll let you decide what i mean.. :p

overall, nice hitting...
IMO you just overhit on alot of shots... whereas the other guy was content to neutralize more from far back behind the baseline... wait for a short ball, then come in and attack the net.
maybe you were pressing because you were getting tired, or maybe because he was getting back shots that would win you points against lesser opponents?
seemed like there were opportunities to attack the net yourself... but you were content to try beating him from the baseline? similar you got some sitters, but didn't always take advantage of them.
maybe his "neutral ball" rally is generally better than yours (ie better placed and generally deeper)?

overall great hitting,
Something very unfluid about these shots... did someone tell them not to allow the follow through?
 
#30
blasphemy. 2good4u has some of the smoothest stroke and footwork on the forum. you clearly don't recognize greatness.
i'm actually thinking of changing my name to 2good4ufan or o50champfan
They are just hitting it back to each other to keep a cooperative rally going. He doesn’t show his smoothness until he has to play for real. The crab crawl and abbreviated groundstroke motion are just for warming up.
 
#31
Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
Also Its 10 degrees cold windy so I'm at like 80%. I included every single point even his last service game where I just mentally gave up and was thinking ahead to set 2.
Not bad for a 3.0.

From what I recall, I'd say you need to make the opponent move side to side, especially as I felt he had less variety and ability to damage you from the backhand side. Also, I thought he tended to revert to the slice (though he hit it well) whenever you pinned him to the bh side. You should immediately look to come in on a deep shot to his backhand. If he runs around, test him with a topspin shot to the forehand, more "smart-targets" than down the middle.

The other obvious thing to work on is serve returns. You gave away far too many free points on serve returns (I have this habit, too). Perhaps you can shorten your swing and not take as big of a cut, especially on first serves.
 
#33
Been a long season, tried to take a top ladder spot and lost this match. I uploaded the first set, I had multiple break points, consistently getting into his serve but couldn't convert. He had 1/1 break pt converted for what its worth.

I'm in the pink.


This is Canada, so don't ask for a NTRP, but we are both top 5 in the ladder and my opponent won the club singles tournament so basically peak 3.0 ;)

Tell me what I need to change, I've been recently trying an atp forehand and been overhauling my serve so I'm sure there are a bunch of technical problems I have to fix.
Also Its 10 degrees cold windy so I'm at like 80%. I included every single point even his last service game where I just mentally gave up and was thinking ahead to set 2.
My initial thoughts are that youre off balance all the time when you hit the ball.

You move around well which is good, but you move around before, during, and after contact as well.

Once youre in position and the ball is coming towards you, you need to make a stand and set yourself to hit the shot. If you look at your opponent for example he moves but once hes in position he stops for a second and hes standing still when he hits the ball. Thats something you need to do.
 
#34

Look how much time they have to make the shot. Even when theyre stretched side to side, they make time to stop/slow down, set and hit. You need to be solid and balanced in the shot.

You might think youre being rushed but these pros seem to have all the time in the world facing solid shots.

Its sometimes an issue of timing.

Its not that you cant reach the ball in time to set yourself, usually its that your timing is off in that youre timing your movement to get into position just as the ball arrives and then you hit it. In your head youre arriving at just the right time.

Instead you want to change this to move fast and early, then give yourself time to stop, set and hit.
 
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vex

Hall of Fame
#35
You lost primarily b/c your FH was an Unforced Error Machine. When its "working" its net clearance is simply too low. Way too many FHs that went IN barely cleared the net. Can't win like that. Paired with that you seemed to launch every 3rd FH way too high sending them long. Gotta get your FH locked into that sweet spot of 2-5 feet net clearance. As another poster noted, you aren't getting any value out of your FH - its not producing winners or even putting out serious pressure even when its "working". Drill it for consistent net clearance, solid depth and most importantly ACCURACY - you want safe FHs (good clearance) that land deep and within 3ish feet of the sidelines. They don't have to be winners! Just depth and accuracy (the idea being to force him to hit on the run) will produce short balls for you to put away or maintain pressure leading to a volley put-away. Watch that Djoker/Berd vid above - thats what both guys are trying to do, consistent but safe pressure to trigger a short ball. NOTE: Not ALL of your FHs were bad, some had good clearance and depth. I'm generalizing here.

Aside from that the only thing that jumped out is you really need to practice BH returns (Thats a common problem for people b/c return practice is rare and BH Return practice is like Bigfoot...)

Don't take this criticism too harshly or get discouraged. Theres a ton of good stuff going on in ur game that I'm not even bothering to mention. Your movement in particular is real good. Just improve your FH, get your BH returns in at a higher rate and you'll be a force.
 
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#37
You seem eager to move back and forth quite quickly. You don't have to rush. It is surprising to see really good players playing singles. They hardly ever seem rushed. They move efficiently, but deliberately. I was watching some older 5.0 players tonight. I know whereof I speak. It's only two steps from one side of the court to the other.

Go to the net!
 
#38

Look how much time they have to make the shot. Even when theyre stretched side to side, they make time to stop/slow down, set and hit. You need to be solid and balanced in the shot.

You might think youre being rushed but these pros seem to have all the time in the world facing solid shots.

Its sometimes an issue of timing.

Its not that you cant reach the ball in time to set yourself, usually its that your timing is off in that youre timing your movement to get into position just as the ball arrives and then you hit it. In your head youre arriving at just the right time.

Instead you want to change this to move fast and early, then give yourself time to stop, set and hit.
Berdych mustn't have a fast twitch muscle in his legs.
Seriously - are the other ATP pros just amazingly fast, or has Berdych never done a sprint in his life? Looks like he has massive mobility problems too. He needed to stop doing squats an start doing yoga and sprints! C'mon!
 
#41
Berdych mustn't have a fast twitch muscle in his legs.
Seriously - are the other ATP pros just amazingly fast, or has Berdych never done a sprint in his life? Looks like he has massive mobility problems too. He needed to stop doing squats an start doing yoga and sprints! C'mon!
Large muscles are primarily made up of fast twitch fibers.

C'mon, get a clue!
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#42
Berdych mustn't have a fast twitch muscle in his legs.
Seriously - are the other ATP pros just amazingly fast, or has Berdych never done a sprint in his life? Looks like he has massive mobility problems too. He needed to stop doing squats an start doing yoga and sprints! C'mon!
He has plenty of fast twitch fibers, but has never had great mobility compared to baseliners. This is my favorite highlight of his :)

 
#43
You're referring to my running forehand footwork? like at 1:07 in the video I think trying to hit an open forehand on the run. What do you mean by lunge step
Don't worry, he was just making fun of that guy, watch his vids (if you're extremely bored) and then look again at that comment and I'm pretty sure you'll crack a smile.

Anyways, great video, keep it up.
 

mcs1970

Professional
#44
For someone with speed like this, you shouldnt be making so many unforced errors.
@sez The above advice is spot on. You might have weaknesses as others have pointed out. However, you also have strengths. You have something that a lot of adults don't have...very good speed. You have much more time than you think you have, especially on your passing shots. A lot of times your opponent was a sitting duck and you let him off the hook by either attempting a weak lob or a low margin passing shot. Just hit your normal baseline shot and let your opponent make the play. Also, unlike some others, I didn't feel your serve was weaker than his. I saw a lot of weak floating returns from him that you didn't force the advantage upon. His serve is more consistent but didn't seem to have the bite your serve did.

I have a friend just like you. Extremely fast...the guy even runs between points to pick up balls. However, when he first started he was always overrunning stuff or playing hurried shots unnecessarily. Once he figured out that he was wasting his strengths and slowed a bit down, it has become extremely frustrating to play him. The guy gets everything back now. Speed can mask a lot of weaknesses.
 
#45
Its surprising that both of these guys can be as good as 4.5, but their backhand is so vulnerable. If i were to play them, :) , i will just hit crosscourt BH all day.
 
#47
Would you do the same against Steve Johnson for an easy victory? :)
Never say its going to be easy win. As a matter of fact, i have a good chance of losing. But that will be my go to strategy. BTW, these 2 guys don't have that powerful serve and forehand combo. So it won't be like steve johnson :p .
Red shirt is fast and powerful but he doesn't seem to have a clear idea of where he wants a shot to go. It is pretty much reaction to watever his opponent is throwing at him. His prep is slow so he can't really use that power for anything.
Grey shirt, on the other hand, is a smart player with a good serve. His footwork is great and he is always ready.
 

sez

Semi-Pro
#48
You lost primarily b/c your FH was an Unforced Error Machine. When its "working" its net clearance is simply too low. Way too many FHs that went IN barely cleared the net. Can't win like that. Paired with that you seemed to launch every 3rd FH way too high sending them long. Gotta get your FH locked into that sweet spot of 2-5 feet net clearance. As another poster noted, you aren't getting any value out of your FH - its not producing winners or even putting out serious pressure even when its "working". Drill it for consistent net clearance, solid depth and most importantly ACCURACY - you want safe FHs (good clearance) that land deep and within 3ish feet of the sidelines. They don't have to be winners! Just depth and accuracy (the idea being to force him to hit on the run) will produce short balls for you to put away or maintain pressure leading to a volley put-away. Watch that Djoker/Berd vid above - thats what both guys are trying to do, consistent but safe pressure to trigger a short ball. NOTE: Not ALL of your FHs were bad, some had good clearance and depth. I'm generalizing here.

Aside from that the only thing that jumped out is you really need to practice BH returns (Thats a common problem for people b/c return practice is rare and BH Return practice is like Bigfoot...)

Don't take this criticism too harshly or get discouraged. Theres a ton of good stuff going on in ur game that I'm not even bothering to mention. Your movement in particular is real good. Just improve your FH, get your BH returns in at a higher rate and you'll be a force.
Really good points about the forehand. I definitely need to drill it a lot. As I mentioned in the op, I've been modifying it and changing the technique and I'm trying to get more net clearance, experimenting with lead tape but focusing mainly on getting that RHS with good lag. Many people are pointing out I'm seemingly rushed and poor footwork patterns causing many unforced errors on the forehand side also.

Don't worry, he was just making fun of that guy, watch his vids (if you're extremely bored) and then look again at that comment and I'm pretty sure you'll crack a smile.
Anyways, great video, keep it up.
Yha I just caught on. He likes to wind up the other posters by exaggerating his abilities.

Its surprising that both of these guys can be as good as 4.5, but their backhand is so vulnerable. If i were to play them, :) , i will just hit crosscourt BH all day.
So true and the weird thing is I actually had a sweet backhand 3 years ago. But I played with a heavy racquet which was causing all kinds of problems on my forehand back then and after a winter of no tennis I switched to a new racquet and my backhand just never felt smooth again.

Some drop feeds from 3 years back, everything except my backhand back then was garbage.
 

mcs1970

Professional
#49
So true and the weird thing is I actually had a sweet backhand 3 years ago. But I played with a heavy racquet which was causing all kinds of problems on my forehand back then and after a winter of no tennis I switched to a new racquet and my backhand just never felt smooth again.

Some drop feeds from 3 years back, everything except my backhand back then was garbage.
Maybe you were trying for too much with your fh back then, rather than let your heavy racquet do the work with more controlled swings? I think your strokes look much better then, especially on the bh side. Why not just go back to that and have a consistent forehand even if it is not overpowering? It's not as if your fh currently is such a weapon that it's winning you a ton of points. Some folks might be better suited to playing with a heavier racquet.
 
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