Why did Mac and Graf leave the 200g behind?

T

Trickster

Rookie
I'm confused as to why McEnroe and Graf ditched the Dunlop max 200g rackets...

Looking at the history reels, Graf played some of her best tennis with the 200g, big penetrating forehands and knife-like slice. And Mcenroe well no need to explain his unbelievable tennis with the stick.

I'm curious as to why they moved on from the racket in that era? Many other players (particularly on the mens circuit) continued to use 85-90 (mid rackets). What was it they weren't getting or was it a commercial move?

Thanks
Trickster
 
D

diamondgeezer

Rookie
The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.

Mac returned to tour in 2006 with Jonas Bjorkman. No doubt Dunlop had developed the Maxply Mcenroe in conjunction.

 
J

jxs653

Semi-Pro
Probably for the same reason he ditched wooden racquet? In his biography, he describes such that, if I remember correctly, the first time he tried his little brother's Max 200G he instantly got more oomph.
diamondgeezer said:
The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.
Click to expand...
Max 200G is noticeably smaller than PS Mid.

Oh BTW, thanks for the video. I enjoyed watching it.
 
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T

Trickster

Rookie
I'm not sure I buy all this... have you seen the kind of power Steffi Graf was getting with the Max 200g? I just don't buy these arguments.

For someone like Graf's game, what was really motivating the switch?
 
PBODY99

PBODY99

Legend
The cost of making the frame, plus advances in in composite technology left the IMF frames with a unique feel, but not a power boost, compared to say the Wilson Pro staff 7.5.
I do not recall the Graf camp stating a reason
 
L

LeoFulgencio

Rookie
„Die Zusammenarbeit ist 1995 ausgelaufen, weil wir den Schläger, der im Spritzgussverfahren hergestellt wurde, nicht mehr produziert haben“, so Detlef Grosse. Steffi Graf habe den Dunlop Max 200G geliebt. Dunlop stellte dieses Modell schon seit 1990 nur noch für sie her, verkaufte es nicht mehr auf dem Markt. „Bei Dunlop war man der Meinung, sie solle zu einem anderen Schläger wechseln“, blickt Grosse zurück. Graf wechselte nicht nur den Schläger, sondern auch den Hersteller. Die letzten vier Jahre ihrer Karriere spielte sie mit Wilson-Schlägern."

https://www.op-online.de/sport/lokalsport/steffi-grafs-karrierebegleiter-detlef-grosse-handelte-mit-dem-tennis-star-die-dunlop-vertraege-aus-90021227.html

"The partnership ended in 1995 because Dunlop stopped the production of this racket for Steffi. (Graf loved the racket.) The 200G was out of the market already in 1990, they only made rackets for her. The company wanted Graf to change. She changed. Not only the racket, but also the brand."

-

Looking at pictures, I think Steffi played with Wilson from 1994, not 1995.

+

tennistiger said:
Always the Pro Staff Classic Lite 85 mold from 1994 with different paint jobs. Layup and weight (no Kevlar) was personal suited for her and had nothing common with Stock versions. Low RA up to 60. Because of the end of the Dunlop contract in 1991 she tried Wilson prototypes at the FedCup 1991 (YouTube Graf Hy), but the harsh frames at that time resulted in shoulder injury. Also Yonex was interested to sign Graf for 1992 !
Note: Later in 1992 Dunlop made the Revelation Pro 90 for her and she decided to play it first at Boca Raton 92 but switched in the last moment back to the 200g.
Click to expand...
Youtube: Steffi Graf vs Patricia Hy FEDERATION CUP 1991


+ Picture of Steffi with PWS racket at that tournament.
 
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E

encylopedia

Professional
Have no idea what you're even talking about with Mcenroe? He stuck with the 200g through his entire career to my recollection. He didn't start playing with other racquets until he was doing seniors and exhibitions, and he was promoting various new Dunlop models by then..... a Revelation Select model....the Maxply Mcenroe, etc. So that obviously would have been a factor in him experimenting.

Is he supposed to play with the 200g even in retirement for the rest of his life??? lol.
 
R

retrowagen

Hall of Fame
I would suggest that neither player left the Max200g behind; rather, Dunlop left them behind, by discontinuing production of the novel (and difficult to produce) IMF frames. Both pros were looking for new tools of the trade, and certainly looking for an endorsement paycheck, as well—two things that a struggling Dunlop tennis concern really was not in a position to provide. Also, both pros were by this point in time falling down the ranks.
 
vsbabolat

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
Trickster said:
I'm not sure I buy all this... have you seen the kind of power Steffi Graf was getting with the Max 200g? I just don't buy these arguments.

For someone like Graf's game, what was really motivating the switch?
Click to expand...
Graf switched to a Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 6.1 85 18x20. McEnroe played with the Max200G until his retirement in 1992. He did towards the end of his career experiment with other racquets but always returned to his Max200G. Now in his 60’s McEnroe is playing with a 95sq.in 16x19 HEAD Radical MP
 
B

BumElbow

Rookie
I recall Graf's father publicly complaining that Dunlop did not know how to market racquets when the Max 200G was cancelled and Graf lost her endorsement.
 
B

big ted

Hall of Fame
i think the 200g and F200 were graphite frames that were as close to a wood racquet as there was...
an improvement from a real wood racquet but by the 90s, becoming outdated...
 
T

tennistiger

Semi-Pro
vsbabolat said:
Graf switched to a Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 6.1 85 18x20. McEnroe played with the Max200G until his retirement in 1992. He did towards the end of his career experiment with other racquets but always returned to his Max200G. Now in his 60’s McEnroe is playing with a 95sq.in 16x19 HEAD Radical MP
Click to expand...
Her frames had a special layup and the frame was much softer than Pro Staff Classic. She tested the 95 version at the Fed Cup 91 and ist was to stiff for her. So she did not switch at that time.
 
vsbabolat

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
tennistiger said:
Her frames had a special layup and the frame was much softer than Pro Staff Classic. She tested the 95 version at the Fed Cup 91 and ist was to stiff for her. So she did not switch at that time.
Click to expand...
She switched to the Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 85 18x20 that was not sold at retail. Taylor Dent also used this frame in the juniors and when he first played ITF Satellites. I was lucky enough to hit with one from a highly ranked junior in the late 1990’s I would practice with.
 
B

BorgCash

Legend
I was always wondered that these two great players played completely different style of tennis but used one racquet model.
 
NicoMK

NicoMK

Professional
diamondgeezer said:
The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.

Mac returned to tour in 2006 with Jonas Bjorkman. No doubt Dunlop had developed the Maxply Mcenroe in conjunction.

Click to expand...
I didn't know he returned to the tour that year and that he even won the tournament with Bjorkman, that's ridiculously crazy :)
 
T

tennistiger

Semi-Pro
vsbabolat said:
She switched to the Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 85 18x20 that was not sold at retail. Taylor Dent also used this frame in the juniors and when he first played ITF Satellites. I was lucky enough to hit with one from a highly ranked junior in the late 1990’s I would practice with.
Click to expand...
Yes, it was a 85 version of the Pro Staff Classic/Graphite (lighter Version in rose colour ) mold, but the layup was different from the Classic! I was in Hamburg 1994 at the SF Saturday, the stringing service measured RA strung 58 or 59, I do not remember exact. That matched the talk I had with Hans Martin Reh, Wilson manager for the pros that time. The 68RA stiffness of the Pro Staff Classic was the main problem when she tried this racket 1991.
 
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Ronaldo

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
tennistiger said:
Yes, it was a 85 version of the Pro Staff Classic/Graphite (lighter Version in rose colour ) mold, but the layup was different from the Classic! I was in Hamburg 1994 at the SF Saturday, the stringing service measured RA strung 58 or 59, I do not remember exact. That matched the talk I had with Hans Martin Reh, Wilson manager for the pros that time. The 68RA stiffness of the Pro Staff Classic was the main problem when she tried this racket 1991.
Click to expand...
PS 7.5 95 saved my elbow. RA is 54, still own it, all played out.
 
max

max

Legend
jxs653 said:
Probably for the same reason he ditched wooden racquet? In his biography, he describes such that, if I remember correctly, the first time he tried his little brother's Max 200G he instantly got more oomph.

Max 200G is noticeably smaller than PS Mid.

Oh BTW, thanks for the video. I enjoyed watching it.
Click to expand...
Owned and played both; both 85 squinch.
 
max

max

Legend
tennistiger said:
Max 200g Pro still was available 1992 in Europe!
Click to expand...
yeah, check my moniker here. . . I began using the 200G around 89 or 90, and could buy one from Hollow bird back in 1992. Of course the changing paint scheme, etc., was a way for Dunlop to try to extend the frame's market life a bit more.

I dropped the frame because I was getting to a point where I felt a stiffer racquet would help my serve get more free points. . .

AND of course, let's not forget the onslaught of the Widebodies, and the Widebody Era!
 
galain

galain

Hall of Fame
big ted said:
i think the 200g and F200 were graphite frames that were as close to a wood racquet as there was...
an improvement from a real wood racquet but by the 90s, becoming outdated...
Click to expand...
I have a Max200G and more F200's than I can count. While they were both soft frames, I really think the Kneissl White Star Pro is the early composite model that really plays like a woodie. The thick throat and tapered head - it's basically the same characteristics as a wood frame - just with more power.
 
AceyMan

AceyMan

Rookie
diamondgeezer said:
The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.

Mac returned to tour in 2006 with Jonas Bjorkman. No doubt Dunlop had developed the Maxply Mcenroe in conjunction.

Click to expand...
I just have to mention something about this video—

Listen to the audio—the sound of four pairs of shoes squeaking sounds like a massive squirrel fight.

Tennis is as much about footwork as anything else and these post-retirement pros prove that truth. They are shuffling their feet like mad to be in a split step every time the ball is struck, and when they move laterally to intercept a ball they often use mini-steps to get the ball slotted in their strike zone.

Footwork is King.

/Acey
 
vsbabolat

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
AceyMan said:
I just have to mention something about this video—

Listen to the audio—the sound of four pairs of shoes squeaking sounds like a massive squirrel fight.

Tennis is as much about footwork as anything else and these post-retirement pros prove that truth. They are shuffling their feet like mad to be in a split step every time the ball is struck, and when they move laterally to intercept a ball they often use mini-steps to get the ball slotted in their strike zone.

Footwork is King.

/Acey
Click to expand...
Yes, footwork is king. Look how well Federer, djokovic and Nadal move compared to everyone else
 
C

Conan

New User
I’ve seen quite a few variations on the Max 200g,
Does anyone here know:

When Dunlop leather was used

When Fairway leather was used

When Light was printed on the side and when it removed?

Did they produce it in different weights?

The different PJ, were there any differences besides paint.

When the different paint jobs came out did they stop making the classic green and gold chevron, or that continued to be produced?
 
E

encylopedia

Professional
NicoMK said:
I didn't know he returned to the tour that year and that he even won the tournament with Bjorkman, that's ridiculously crazy :)
Click to expand...
That was a one-off. Mac returned to give publicity to the struggling doubles game - at least that's what he claimed.

.....and yes....it's bitter-sweet and a tribute to Mac that at his age, he was able to simply walk in - long into retirement - and not just compete but win a doubles tournament. Bjorkman was over the hill as well!

Another funny incident was that a couple of years before, at age 45 Mac CRUSHED a teenage Andy Murray who was just starting out in the pro ranks in a big-money one night exhibition tournament.
 
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Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Trickster said:
I'm confused as to why McEnroe and Graf ditched the Dunlop max 200g rackets...

Looking at the history reels, Graf played some of her best tennis with the 200g, big penetrating forehands and knife-like slice. And Mcenroe well no need to explain his unbelievable tennis with the stick.

I'm curious as to why they moved on from the racket in that era? Many other players (particularly on the mens circuit) continued to use 85-90 (mid rackets). What was it they weren't getting or was it a commercial move?

Thanks
Trickster
Click to expand...
This stick is OLD, and it is way too heavy with high swing weight. It was great for its time during the 80's, but it's time has passed. now there are much better rackets
 
T

tennistiger

Semi-Pro
vsbabolat said:
I know, for the 3rd time I’ve hit with one! How many ways do I have to say that?
Click to expand...
I was at the Citizen Cup 1994 and saw one of the Rackets measuring at the stringing service and it was strung under 60 RA. I also had a talk with Wilson manager Hans Martin Reh who explained the racket change. It was the Classic 85 mold but a very different layup compared to the normal 95 Classic she first tried in 1991. Sawing through your tested racket would have shown that.
May be it is only a Problem of Feeling. Smaller headsizes often feel stiffer and more stable than the RA says compared to same racket in bigger sizes. So both can be possible. The Yamaha EOS ist a good example for that. The 97 feels stiffer although the RA ist lower than the 110.
 
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vsbabolat

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
tennistiger said:
I was at the Citizen Cup 1994 and saw one of the Rackets measuring at the stringing service and it was strung under 60 RA. I also had a talk with Wilson manager Hans Martin Reh who explained the racket change. It was the Classic 85 mold but a very different layup compared to the normal 95 Classic she first tried in 1991. Sawing through your tested racket would have shown that.
May be it is only a Problem of Feeling. Smaller headsizes often feel stiffer and more stable than the RA says compared to same racket in bigger sizes. So both can be possible. The Yamaha EOS ist a good example for that. The 97 feels stiffer although the RA ist lower than the 110.
Click to expand...
I thought the Classic 85 played more flexible that Classic 6.1 95. Very nice racquet and a real shame Wilson didn’t sell it.
 
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