Why did Nadal dominate Federer on outdoor courts from 2008-14?

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
One of the fascinating aspects of the Nadal-Federer rivalry is how dominant Nadal was over his rival on outdoor courts, particularly when he had matured to a multi-surface player.

From 2008-2014 they played 16 times on outdoor surfaces and Nadal won 14, Federer won 2.
This included 6 meetings in slams. Nadal won them all.

Why was Nadal able to dominate Federer when they played outdoors, especially from 2008-14?
 

Kralingen

Legend
what it really comes down to is that Pre-2014 Nadal could run around almost any backhand and immediately gain control of rallies with his FH.

Post-2014 Nadal can’t do it as easily, ergo the H2H is 5-1 Fed post 2014.

Analyze tactical changes, racket size, physical stamina, mental blocks, etc all you want. The factor that made the most difference is who could better run around their BH.
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
what it really comes down to is that Pre-2014 Nadal could run around almost any backhand and immediately gain control of rallies with his FH.

Post-2014 Nadal can’t do it as easily, ergo the H2H is 5-1 Fed post 2014.

Analyze tactical changes, racket size, physical stamina, mental blocks, etc all you want. The factor that made the most difference is who could better run around their BH.
And this wasn't possible indoors where Federer leads 5-1?
 

Kralingen

Legend
Think about the sort of spin and both are putting on their FHs when they do get the opportunity to hit them. The desired action of Nadal’s topspin oriented game works better on high bouncing surfaces (such as outdoor HC like AO ‘09, obviously clay, and even the Wimby final grass)

Not only that, Federer is more comfortable taking the ball quickly and on the lower bounce than Rafa is. So, when you consider Rafa’s topspin has less of an effect on low bouncing surfaces, Federer also is able to flatten out his strokes and play a more timing based game indoors. Advantage Fed.

In this matchup I think bounce is arguably just as, if not more, important than court speed.

The real elephant in the room is that none of 2008-14 Fed had the athletic ability of Nadal, in explosion, stamina, or quickness.
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
Think about the sort of spin and both are putting on their FHs when they do get the opportunity to hit them. The desired action of Nadal’s topspin oriented game works better on high bouncing surfaces (such as outdoor HC like AO ‘09, obviously clay, and even the Wimby final grass)

Not only that, Federer is more comfortable taking the ball quickly and on the lower bounce than Rafa is. So, when you consider Rafa’s topspin has less of an effect on low bouncing surfaces, Federer also is able to flatten out his strokes and play a more timing based game indoors. Advantage Fed.

In this matchup I think bounce is arguably just as, if not more, important than court speed.

The real elephant in the room is that none of 2008-14 Fed had the athletic ability of Nadal, in explosion, stamina, or quickness.
You're saying the ball bounces lower on all indoor courts?
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
The 2013 period was due to Federer's injured back, when he stupidly decided to play on in IW after injurying himself, even Nadal asked him at the net if he was OK. It's like Nadal losing to players in 2015...the fact Federer even lost indoors during that period is telling.

Other matches Nadal overall was generally better. Miami 2011 Federer deserved to lose, because he came in with a hangover after partying the night before into the morning celebrating his wife's birthday.
 

Patogen

Rookie
what it really comes down to is that Pre-2014 Nadal could run around almost any backhand and immediately gain control of rallies with his FH.

Post-2014 Nadal can’t do it as easily, ergo the H2H is 5-1 Fed post 2014.

Analyze tactical changes, racket size, physical stamina, mental blocks, etc all you want. The factor that made the most difference is who could better run around their BH.
Faster legs also allowed him to play better BH and to withstand more pressure for much longer. Even when he got pushed in a rally and couldn't quite get to his FH, his chances of turning the tides from the BH side were way better. Not to mention his net approaches. It's almost painful now to watch him run towards the net. It has a vet tour written all over.
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
Because Rafa was just better. When it's 14-2? The answer is that whoever won 14 times is a better tennis player on that surface.

Even if you add the 5-1 after 2014? It's 15-7. The numbers don't lie.
Give them time and they'll work out some more excuses unrelated to tennis ability. So far we've had a bad back and going to a party the night before. Can't wait to see what's next!
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
Some detail on those stats:

2008-2014

SLAM MEETINGS
Hard
Nadal 3-0 Federer
Clay
Nadal 2-0 Federer
Grass
Nadal 1-0 Federer

TOTAL MEETINGS
Hard
Nadal 6-1 Federer
Clay
Nadal 7-1 Federer
Grass
Nadal 1-0 Federer
 

jondice

Rookie
Nadal's 0-18 vs Fedovic outside clay the last 7 seasons is worth mentioning.

Most players have good and weak stretches, not just in their careers, but also against rivals.
We all know those numbers are mostly Nole victories. And, as a Rafa fan, I'm more than fine with saying that Nole is a better HC player than Rafa. Why? The numbers don't lie.

Rafa is a much better clay player (again, the numbers) and their overall H2H is very close. So, Nole: Better on grass, HC. Rafa, better on clay. Both are good enough to have beaten the other on their favored surfaces over the years. So, overall? Damn even.

But Nole has better stats in other areas, so he gets the edge of better player overall. For now.

(Just because we have favorites doesn't mean we have to not admit the truth.)
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
How about this for H2H

Miami 2004 to TMC 2007 = 8-6 Nadal
Monte Carlo to AO 2009 = 5-0 Nadal
Madrid 2009 to Wimbledon 2019 = 11-10 Nadal

With the exeception of that MC 2008 to AO 2009...where Nadal rightfully got the wins three of them in final sets...the last decade they are almost dead even. :censored:
Or this:

Meetings when both players were in their 20s

NADAL 17-8 FEDERER
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
How about this for H2H

Miami 2004 to TMC 2007 = 8-6 Nadal
Monte Carlo to AO 2009 = 5-0 Nadal
Madrid 2009 to Wimbledon 2019 = 11-10 Nadal

With the exeception of that MC 2008 to AO 2009...where Nadal rightfully got the wins three of them in final sets...the last decade they are almost dead even. :censored:
This.At the end of the day, the only thing that can be used against Fed is his lack of success against Nadal on clay, that 2-14 is a very bad record tbh.Other than that, it's all good :D
 

InsideOut900

Hall of Fame
The only H2H that matters is career consistency.

I don't need to know how many times Nadal was better during 2008-2014 on outdoors courts, I will just take each individual tournament from 2000-2021 and determine which player was better more times, thus eliminating any cherry-picking.

It's that simple, obviously with emphasis on making the latter rounds in Slams, M1000 and YEC, since not all wins are equal.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer's age in 2008 was same as Nadal's in 2013
Federer's age in 2014 was same as Nadal's in 2019

2013 - 2019 what is Nadal's performance ???

Does he have a losing clueless H2H vs old men like Fed ?
 

socallefty

Legend
Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are all close in ability. So, whoever mentally thinks they should win a match usually has an edge. Nadal has had that advantage over both his rivals on clay for his entire career because they could never hit through him. Outside of clay also, Federer stopped having belief that he could overcome his BH disadvantage against Nadal’s high-bouncing topspin FH for many years and so, he had a losing record against him on all surfaces. After he changed to the bigger RF97 and started hitting his BH more aggressively on the rise, he seems to have overcome that.

Djokovic seems to have had the mental edge over both his rivals for most of the last decade outside of clay and that’s why his H-H record has turned in his favor since 2011. They just don’t seem to believe they are better than him apart from Federer on fast hardcourts like Cincinnati and Nadal on clay.
 
Spencer Bore felt like it had been way too long he had put Federer under the gun.
I am sure you are still recovering from that USO F. And from the fact that dozen threads you had already planned were laid to waste.

Chin Up. Djokovic will get his 21 within first 3 salms of 2022.
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
How about more manipulation of numbers?

Winning H2H via surface...Federer 2, Nadal 1

Winning H2H in slam finals off clay - Federer,
Winning H2H in slam finals on clay - Nadal
Well, obviously in years to come the only H2H stats that will matter to tennis fans and historians will be Nadal's 24-16 overall or, perhaps more importantly his 10-4 lead in slam meetings, but it's always interesting to dig into those figures to see how they came about.

Then again, you think Wimbledon 2001 was the greatest slam in the history of tennis, so we just have a radically different opinion on this beautiful game.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Well, obviously in years to come the only H2H stats that will matter to tennis fans and historians will be Nadal's 24-16 overall or, perhaps more importantly his 10-4 lead in slam meetings, but it's always interesting to dig into those figures to see how they came about.

Then again, you think Wimbledon 2001 was the greatest slam in the history of tennis, so we just have a radically different opinion on this beautiful game.
In regards to your last line, because people also have their differing opinions on the best song, best movie, best city etc....

It's called difference of opinion.

But I do agree with you on one thing, Nadal will always lead the H2H, just understand this though, we can all manipluate numbers to suit agendas, the way you first did and then the way I did.

How about we just appreciate this great rivalry for the epic moments it gave us and leave it at that.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Given that age doesn't matter and Nadal is 1-7 against Fed since 2015 (by the time Fed adjusted to the new stick), we can only conclude Nadal is lucky Fed is an older player who used outdated technology. Imagine if Fed was Nadal's peer and switched to 97 earlier? Ugh, Nadal's big title tally would be even more skewed towards clay.

P.S. I genuinely feel for the OP and other young tennis fans who missed on 2001 Wimbledon.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Lol.

So back injury is an excuse? You heard it guys and gals, if Nadal if ever lost, don't ever use the excuse he was injured, because that has no impact on tennis ability, he was simply beaten by the better man each time. ;)
Kinda late for that in regards to the OP, given that he's the same guy who claimed Nadal would have won 30 slams without injuries (that of course almost never came during CC season).
 

Sunny014

Legend
Dal is inferior in skills to Federer and Novak.
He compensates for that with his ferocious athleticism and physical superiority by trying to overpower them, at his peak it always worked on clay and sometimes outside clay.

That having said, as @zagor mentioned, Nadal is lucky Fed was not Nadal's peer (born in say 87), in such a scenario Footspeed and physical power would be much closer, bigger racquet as well for Fed since teenage years, doesn't look good for Nadal outside clay.

@Spencer Gore the BORE started watching tennis from the 2008 french open, so he wouldn't know how things were in early-mid 00s
 
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