Why did the big 3 find USO harder to dominate?

TheNachoMan

TheNachoMan

Legend
Just look at this list and there’s a stark difference between the USO and the other 3 slams..

Non big 3 winners of AO since 2003:
Agassi
Safin
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of RG since 2003:
Ferrero
Gaudio
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of Wimbledon since 2003:
Murray
Alcaraz

Non big 3 winners of USO since 2003:
Roddick
Del Potro
Murray
Cilic
Wawrinka
Thiem
Medvedev
Alcaraz
 
TheNachoMan said:
Just look at this list and there’s a stark difference between the USO and the other 3 slams..

Non big 3 winners of AO since 2003:
Agassi
Safin
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of RG since 2003:
Ferrero
Gaudio
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of Wimbledon since 2003:
Murray
Alcaraz

Non big 3 winners of USO since 2003:
Roddick
Del Potro
Murray
Cilic
Wawrinka
Thiem
Medvedev
Alcaraz
Click to expand...
Edit: ignore this.
Which are the ones, where none of the Big3 competed? In my memory there's just Thiem and Alcaraz at USO, then it would at least be two less there. Still a lot more different USO-winners then, though.
 
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simple......fastest slam surface over the last couple of decades due to which players in red hot form and counterpunchers saw some success as well along with the usual big-3......big-3's major weapon which is their defense is negated to some extent on this surface......

nadal adjusted to the surface much better than djokovic and saw the highest success among big-3 over the last 15 years......djoko and fed basically excelled on slow hardcourts, their numerous world toast final wins on those dead surfaces in london is proof of that......it's all quite funny when you consider people believe fed and djokovic are favoured by fast surfaces but in reality it is nadal who enjoyed the speed of us open surface which takes his topspin quite well as well......winning 4 times despite skipping the event several times due to injuries......
 
mike danny said:
It was a slower HC in 2011-2019 though.
Click to expand...

i think only the 2011 edition was slow because the organizers went wrong with the paint job of the surfaces.......instead of a double layer coating they went ahead with painting the courts with a 6 layer coating or something i don't quite remember......fed complained immediately about the slowness of courts.......so they repainted the surface at ashe immediately after the tournament and got it back to its usual speed by 2012......
 
US Open is fast surface and the last slam of the year, by the time the season ends energy levels are not the same for everyone.

Federer could win 5 because of the weak era, if he had 1 rival of his level in prime then his title count could have been maybe 1 less. Djokodal had each other so neither of them could win more, weak era later on also did not help them because field catch up with you there, youngsters beat you so titles have to be won in your 20s itself like Federer won most.
 
Well, it's not the pet slam for any of the Big 3 for starters. Djokovic didn't let many AO for other players, Nadal certainly didn't leave many RG for other players. And it was also the case at Wimbledon first with Federer and then with Djokovic. None of them have USO as their favorite slam, it had to happen with one slam since they are three players and four slams, and it's the USO.

Also, RG and Wimbledon have many players who aren't good on those surfaces. Many players can't play on grass or clay, but everyone basically knows how to play on hard courts. So it was easier for the Big 3 to dominate those slams than the USO. The anomaly is Djokovic having so much better track record at the AO than USO, but well, anomalies happen. Just like it was strange for Nadal to have 4 USOs and 1 AO before last year.

Also, you have to consider:

2012: Nadal misses it
2014: Nadal misses it
2016: Federer misses it
2020: Federer and Nadal miss it, Djokovic is DQed
2022: Djokovic misses it

The oddest case is 2014 where BOTH Federer and Djokovic lost in the semi at the same time vs non-Big 3 players. That wouldn't happen at any other slam probably.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Well, it's not the pet slam for any of the Big 3 for starters. Djokovic didn't let many AO for other players, Nadal certainly didn't leave many RG for other players. And it was also the case at Wimbledon first with Federer and then with Djokovic. None of them have USO as their favorite slam, it had to happen with one slam since they are three players and four slams, and it's the USO.

Also, RG and Wimbledon have many players who aren't good on those surfaces. Many players can't play on grass or clay, but everyone basically knows how to play on hard courts. So it was easier for the Big 3 to dominate those slams than the USO. The anomaly is Djokovic having so much better track record at the AO than USO, but well, anomalies happen. Just like it was strange for Nadal to have 4 USOs and 1 AO before last year.

Also, you have to consider:

2012: Nadal misses it
2014: Nadal misses it
2016: Federer misses it
2020: Federer and Nadal miss it, Djokovic is DQed
2022: Djokovic misses it

The oddest case is 2014 where BOTH Federer and Djokovic lost in the semi at the same time vs non-Big 3 players. That wouldn't happen at any other slam probably.
Click to expand...
Except it was one of Fed's pet slams in 2004-2009.
 
giphy.gif


Thanks for that.
 
Federer did dominate it. Nadal would also have 5+ titles if not for injuries forcing him to missed the event for a few years. Djokovic was super consistent with 9 finals but he's always been more vulnerable on Arthur Ashe than in Melbourne.
 
Federer dominated it by being the only player to win five straight, with four successful title defenses and made six straight finals, seven finals in total.

I mean, if Federer didn't dominate it, then neither did Sampras or Connors, and both are known for their USO domination.


Back in 2009, Federer's dominance at USO was staggering, it felt like he was going to keep winning forever, the conditions suited his HC game perfectly. In fact during his peak years, that was the HC event he dominated the most, with YEC being a close second.


The thing is, everything has been distorted by the stupid numbers the Big 3 put up at the other three slams, that it looks like USO didn't have dominant champions. Keep this in mind, Federer won his first USO title before Nadal had won his first ever RG title, and was still USO champion after Nadal had lost to Soderling. As incredible as Nadal looked at RG during his first four years, Federer also dominated USO with an iron fist.
 
mike danny said:
Except it was one of Fed's pet slams in 2004-2009.
Click to expand...

There's no "one of". Federer's pet slam is Wimbledon, he was great at the USO, just like Djokovic was great at Wimbledon, but they all clearly have their #1 slam.

And yeah, he did brilliantly during that period but then very poor after that. In fact, he even ended up being better at the AO than USO when at one point he was as good at the USO as he was at Wimbledon. In 2008 he had 5 Wimbledon 5 USO and 3 AO. But he ended up with 8 Wimbledon 6 AO and 5 USO. And after 2009 he only made one final, so it's not like he lost several finals there like he did at Wimbledon (to another Big 3 member). Many times he lost early and/or to inferior players like Millman, Berdych, Cilic, Robredo, Dimitrov, etc.
 
Start da Game said:
simple......fastest slam surface over the last couple of decades due to which players in red hot form and counterpunchers saw some success as well along with the usual big-3......big-3's major weapon which is their defense is negated to some extent on this surface......

nadal adjusted to the surface much better than djokovic and saw the highest success among big-3 over the last 15 years......djoko and fed basically excelled on slow hardcourts, their numerous world toast final wins on those dead surfaces in london is proof of that......it's all quite funny when you consider people believe fed and djokovic are favoured by fast surfaces but in reality it is nadal who enjoyed the speed of us open surface which takes his topspin quite well as well......winning 4 times despite skipping the event several times due to injuries......
Click to expand...

LMAO - Yeah, lets forget that AO since 2017 has been faster than USO, at least up until Laykold was used. And who won those AO titles post 2017? Clue for you, Nadal won the least of the three since 2017.

And Federer and Djokovic only won YEC titles in London? Didn't you see Federer win back to back titles in Shanghai, plus the back to back in Houston? Or how about Djokovic also winning his first in Shanghai, and his last one in super fast conditions in Turin?

Nadal fanboying going overboard....Remind me, how many Cincinnati titles does Federer have? How many does Nadal have? And Federer won 5 USO in a row on superfast HC also....

Federer is the best fast HC court player of this era bar none, and Djokovic is the second best fast court player of this era.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
There's no "one of". Federer's pet slam is Wimbledon, he was great at the USO, just like Djokovic was great at Wimbledon, but they all clearly have their #1 slam.

And yeah, he did brilliantly during that period but then very poor after that. In fact, he even ended up being better at the AO than USO when at one point he was as good at the USO as he was at Wimbledon. In 2008 he had 5 Wimbledon 5 USO and 3 AO. But he ended up with 8 Wimbledon 6 AO and 5 USO. And after 2009 he only made one final, so it's not like he lost several finals there like he did at Wimbledon (to another Big 3 member). Many times he lost early and/or to inferior players like Millman, Berdych, Cilic, Robredo, Dimitrov, etc.
Click to expand...
It doesn't change the fact that at one point he did dominate it and it was one of his hunting grounds to a bigger extent than Wimb has been Novak's.
 
Razer said:
US Open is fast surface and the last slam of the year, by the time the season ends energy levels are not the same for everyone.

Federer could win 5 because of the weak era, if he had 1 rival of his level in prime then his title count could have been maybe 1 less. Djokodal had each other so neither of them could win more, weak era later on also did not help them because field catch up with you there, youngsters beat you so titles have to be won in your 20s itself like Federer won most.
Click to expand...
The season doesn't end until after China Open and YE finals. Fed still had energy to win those as did Djokovic

Hewitt, Agassi (was still a force at 35), Roddick. Yes, a weaker era than late 90s and post-2010 but there's always going to be a weak period of 4 to 5 years.
Djokovic has been in a weak era since 2021 beating Thiem, Tsits and Med. Kind of easy to rack up slams until Carlos and Rune improve even more.
It's strange for Djokovic to not do as well there in the finals being a hard court.
 
I think it's just the toughest slam to play since it's a rock hard surface, played in heat and humidity and at the end of a long season. Players are more beat up by September and that definitely affects aging players more. That's why you see USO success wither as each of the big 3 aged.
 
a10best said:
The season doesn't end until after China Open and YE finals. Fed still had energy to win those as did Djokovic

Hewitt, Agassi (was still a force at 35), Roddick. Yes, a weaker era than late 90s and post-2010 but there's always going to be a weak period of 4 to 5 years.
Djokovic has been in a weak era since 2021 beating Thiem, Tsits and Med. Kind of easy to rack up slams until Carlos and Rune improve even more.
Click to expand...
Most players take some time off after USO to heal up for YE finals.
 
Hitman said:
LMAO - Yeah, lets forget that AO since 2017 has been faster than USO, at least up until Laykold was used. And who won those AO titles post 2017? Clue for you, Nadal won the least of the three since 2017.

And Federer and Djokovic only won YEC titles in London? Didn't you see Federer win back to back titles in Shanghai, plus the back to back in Houston? Or how about Djokovic also winning his first in Shanghai, and his last one in super fast conditions in Turin?

Nadal fanboying going overboard....Remind me, how many Cincinnati titles does Federer have? How many does Nadal have? And Federer won 5 USO in a row on superfast HC also....

Federer is the best fast HC court player of this era bar none, and Djokovic is the second best fast court player of this era.
Click to expand...
aus open is only medium fast, unless the sun beats down and makes the balls fly off the ground......most of the big matches there are played in slow and cooler night conditions......rafa tasted most success against the other two on fast hardcourts in grandslams......he thumped novak 2-1 on decoturf-2 which is the fastest surface of all four slams......even at olympics where he beat djoko it was a lightening fast hardcourt in beijing, even red hot gonzalez couldn't do much against peak nadal there in 2008......rafa leads fed 3-1 at the aus open and they haven't even met at the us open......

cincinnatti is a masters event and we cannot expect nadal to sweep everything in sight on hardcourts every time as it is only his second favourite surface, yet he is actually the only one of the big-3 to sweep the north american swing with wins in canada, cincinnatti and new york......djokovic and fed are the ones who were supposed to do that and both failed to assert any real authority on nadal in hardcourt slams while nadal not only beat them but totally destroyed them at roland garros......
 
Start da Game said:
aus open is only medium fast, unless the sun beats down and makes the balls fly off the ground......most of the big matches there are played in slow and cooler night conditions......rafa tasted most success against the other two on fast hardcourts in grandslams......he thumped novak 2-1 on decoturf-2 which is the fastest surface of all four slams......even at olympics where he beat djoko it was a lightening fast hardcourt in beijing, even red hot gonzalez couldn't do much against peak nadal there in 2008......rafa leads fed 3-1 at the aus open and they haven't even met at the us open......

cincinnatti is a masters event and we cannot expect nadal to sweep everything in sight on hardcourts every time as it is only his second favourite surface, yet he is actually the only one of the big-3 to sweep the north american swing with wins in canada, cincinnatti and new york......djokovic and fed are the ones who were supposed to do that and both failed to assert any real authority on nadal in hardcourt slams while nadal not only beat them but totally destroyed them at roland garros......
Click to expand...

AO 2017-2019 was faster than USO 2017-2019. This was talked about during that time period, it is also why USO then got rid of the slower higher bouncing Decoturf and brought in the faster lower bouncing Laykold surface in 2020 to get back to faster speeds again.

Even if you want to bring up the Olympics, then explain why Federer dusted Nadal off in straights in back to back years at YEC in the semis, when the courts were super fast? Or why Djokovic is 2-0 against him in Cincinnati?

You bring up Nadal being 3-1 against Federer at AO, he is, and kudos to him. But the three he won was before the surface speed change, the match that they actually had on faster conditions was in 2017. And he was dusted by Djokovic in 2019 also.

This is official and you can see USO was slower. Nadal is the weakest of the three in fast conditions, there is a reason why he has less HC slams and less grass slams in general.



fcxfpqizk9i91.png
 
TheNachoMan said:
Just look at this list and there’s a stark difference between the USO and the other 3 slams..

Non big 3 winners of AO since 2003:
Agassi
Safin
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of RG since 2003:
Ferrero
Gaudio
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of Wimbledon since 2003:
Murray
Alcaraz

Non big 3 winners of USO since 2003:
Roddick
Del Potro
Murray
Cilic
Wawrinka
Thiem
Medvedev
Alcaraz
Click to expand...
Not trying to troll… but did you happen to see Fed play the USO in the 2000s during his peak years?

5 championships in a row.
6 finals in a row.
8 SF in a row.
9 QTR in a row.

I don’t think he failed to dominate. He’s just six years older than Novak.
 
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a10best said:
The season doesn't end until after China Open and YE finals. Fed still had energy to win those as did Djokovic

Hewitt, Agassi (was still a force at 35), Roddick. Yes, a weaker era than late 90s and post-2010 but there's always going to be a weak period of 4 to 5 years.
Djokovic has been in a weak era since 2021 beating Thiem, Tsits and Med. Kind of easy to rack up slams until Carlos and Rune improve even more.
It's strange for Djokovic to not do as well there in the finals being a hard court.
Click to expand...
Weaker than late 90's? I think you mean early to mid 90's. Late 90's was pretty weak.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
I have never seen a slam that all big 3 dominated.

AO Nole and partly Fed.
RG Nadal
Wimby Fed and Nole

USO - None of them.
Click to expand...

Hmmm…

5 titles in a row.
6 finals in a row.
8 SF in a row.
9 QTR in a row.

I don’t think Roger failed to dominate in his prime years. He’s just six years older than Novak so it’s not as “recent” as the heights of Novak’s career.
 
TheNachoMan said:
Just look at this list and there’s a stark difference between the USO and the other 3 slams..

Non big 3 winners of AO since 2003:
Agassi
Safin
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of RG since 2003:
Ferrero
Gaudio
Wawrinka

Non big 3 winners of Wimbledon since 2003:
Murray
Alcaraz

Non big 3 winners of USO since 2003:
Roddick
Del Potro
Murray
Cilic
Wawrinka
Thiem
Medvedev
Alcaraz
Click to expand...
The crazy thing is that after Fed's choke against Delpo in 2009 final ending his run of 5 consecutive title wins, nobody has managed to defend the title.
 
Hitman said:
AO 2017-2019 was faster than USO 2017-2019. This was talked about during that time period, it is also why USO then got rid of the slower higher bouncing Decoturf and brought in the faster lower bouncing Laykold surface in 2020 to get back to faster speeds again.

Even if you want to bring up the Olympics, then explain why Federer dusted Nadal off in straights in back to back years at YEC in the semis, when the courts were super fast? Or why Djokovic is 2-0 against him in Cincinnati?

You bring up Nadal being 3-1 against Federer at AO, he is, and kudos to him. But the three he won was before the surface speed change, the match that they actually had on faster conditions was in 2017. And he was dusted by Djokovic in 2019 also.

This is official and you can see USO was slower. Nadal is the weakest of the three in fast conditions, there is a reason why he has less HC slams and less grass slams in general.



fcxfpqizk9i91.png
Click to expand...

world tour finals is rated lower 30s cpi......cpi is purely about the surface and that in itself is not conclusive......you have to factor in other elements like indoor/outdoor, day/night, low/high bounce, balls all of which make a huge difference......wtf is dead slow court with low bounce which is easily nadal's worst and djoker's best surface......

nadal had them both on decoturf-2 which is quite fast and it is agreed universally......he blasted novak in 2010 and 2013, the olympics and even beat fed in dubai 2006 on decoturf-2......he lost in cincinnatti which is fair......that is quite an achievement when he himself is not a hardcourter like the other two......
 
Rafa4LifeEver said:
The crazy thing is that after Fed's choke against Delpo in 2009 final ending his run of 5 consecutive title wins, nobody has managed to defend the title.
Click to expand...
I think saying Fed “choked” 2009 final is a little poor on Fed and Delpo.

JMDP was a BEAST. Fed made some stupid decisions sure, but DelPo was the real thing. It’s just tragic that his wrists are made of Pringles Potato Chips.
 
Federev said:
I think saying Fed “choked” 2009 final is a little poor on Fed and Delpo.

JMDP was a BEAST. Fed made some stupid decisions sure, but DelPo was the real thing. It’s just tragic that his wrists are made of Pringles Potato Chips.
Click to expand...
Delpo is one hell of an overrated player. If not for Roger to have used all of his precision in targetting the big man's forehand in 2 big finals, JMDP would've never won anything beyond ATP 500.
 
Rafa4LifeEver said:
The crazy thing is that after Fed's choke against Delpo in 2009 final ending his run of 5 consecutive title wins, nobody has managed to defend the title.
Click to expand...
Nadal was unable to defend his titles in 2014 and 2020 due to injuries, unfortunately.
He had two good chances to do it.
:D
 
Rafa4LifeEver said:
Delpo is one hell of an overrated player. If not for Roger to have used all of his precision in targetting the big man's forehand in 2 big finals, JMDP would've never won anything beyond ATP 500.
Click to expand...

Hmmm…

I think he’s very good. I do think his body let him down.

But also - yes - had Fed stayed away from his FH - Delpo probably ends like Tsongas.
 
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