Why do people hate pushers?

FanOfLu

FanOfLu

Professional
Why do people hate pushers? Most of the time we see posters ridiculing and labeling certain pros as pushers and also on a personal level they hate playing against pushers. But why? I get that certain people find this playing style not pleasing to the eyes just like some don't like watching ball bashers. But most of the time the reason they seem to hate pushers is that they simply lose to them, but wouldn't that be saying a lot about their own game. It's not like that pushers cheat with their playing style. So do you hate pushers? If so, why?
 
Better question would be "why do you hate ball bashers FanOfLu?" After all it's not like they're cheating with their playing style.
 
My observation is that there two kinds of anti-pusher people around here. One group simply doesn't like playing not to lose, they want aggressive players who play to win.

The second are those who label as 'pusher' any player they don't like, regardless of whether they actually push or not(it's rare for pros to actually do this).
 
Russeljones said:
Hate watching pushers. I hate that the state of the surfaces allows pushing to be rewarded leading to a proliferation of aesthetically unpleasant tennis.
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Agree. But pushers can only win against players with extreme weaknesses.

Think Conners against Ashe, where Ashe knew that short, low balls would break Conners down. Or the Harold Solomon and his moon balls, in my mind the ugliest player who has ever played tennis. He even beat Borg on clay in 1976.

Pushers are like deadly mosquitoes.

There is nothing more depressing than watching two pushers in a final.
 
Pushers don't exist in the professional arena. Chang was probably the closest I've seen professionally and he was only defensive because his serve put him on the back foot, once he was in an offensive position he went for the win. Potentially Mac was a pusher, he played with a very open racquet face and pushed rather than swing, generally his aim was to slow the game down to get short ball to attack and force his opponent to generate there own power. No player in today's game pushes, they rip top spin for pace and safety of shot even slice is aggressive side and under spin.
 
FanOfLu said:
Why do people hate pushers? Most of the time we see posters ridiculing and labeling certain pros as pushers and also on a personal level they hate playing against pushers. But why? I get that certain people find this playing style not pleasing to the eyes just like some don't like watching ball bashers. But most of the time the reason they seem to hate pushers is that they simply lose to them, but wouldn't that be saying a lot about their own game. It's not like that pushers cheat with their playing style. So do you hate pushers? If so, why?
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Poll ? ............
 
Bryan Swartz said:
My observation is that there two kinds of anti-pusher people around here. One group simply doesn't like playing not to lose, they want aggressive players who play to win.

The second are those who label as 'pusher' any player they don't like, regardless of whether they actually push or not(it's rare for pros to actually do this).
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Me, I hate playing pushers (beat them when I hyper focus, but it is never fun) and I hate watching pushers..BUT..that being said I can't think of any true pushers at the pro-level, man or woman. Boring to watch defensive players, yes, but annoying as hell true pushers...no!

Also...be honest..who the hell likes being a pusher? Does anyone look forward to their match and get pumped up by saying to themselves.."ALL RIGHT, LET'S DO THIS! Time to get out there and play it safe, put the ball back in play and SURVIVE THIS GUY!!!!! Let's go!" then after do they drive home with pride, having won on their opponents 30 UE's to their 4, but having watched 20 clean winners rip by them while they produced 1, shoot me!!
 
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It is boring to watch because they have more fear of losing than will to win.

Yea, it sucks watching pushers like Djokovic around.
 
Playing a pusher is a struggle against yourself. I agree there are few true pushers. Monfils? Simon, for sure.
 
I don't like them because they are usually good athletes from other sports that have learned "enough" to win at USTA levels 3.5-4.0. Pushers don't get past that level. Why? Because they don't have any real interest in learning how to play. Pushers are players with improper swing mechanics that rely on large lightweight racquets to rebound the other player's shots with no pace to awkward positions.

Why do they win? Because playing tennis correctly is HARD and requires you to have focus, be in good condition, and have good technique. It takes much less effort and time to learn how to push. You really just have to get a big racquet and be able to run.

As my technique improves and my conditioning improves, I am now beating pushers. Still, I hate playing them. Who wants to play an opponent that can only dump a ball with no pace or throw up lob after lob. I have more fun playing an actual wall. Bottom line, there's no SPORT in playing a pusher. Let's just put down our racquet and run laps around the court to see who can do it the longest!
 
the reason people hate it is that everyone is playing the same style now for the most part. when tennis lost its variety it started going down hill. The only reason it stayed somewhat popular was because of federer highlights and the massive marketing machine to hype him. its going to take a long time to turn it around. At some point they are going to have to speed up the surfaces again if they ever want to bring the variety back.
 
People don't like pushers because the macho male ego believes it's more "honorable" to win by being aggressive and going for your shots, instead of winning by waiting for your opponent to make the error. It's winning by superior physical ability and skill over patience and mental toughness. If you can beat me by "pushing", then more power to you I say.

The beauty of tennis is in variety. Everyone can play the game the way they see fit and the way that they feel gives them the best chance to win. You can play cautiously or carelessly...the choice is yours. Or you can pick something in the middle. If everyone played the same way, it would be extremely boring to watch and play. When I play a rec level "pusher"...I know what I need to do to win...serve and volley, force them to make passing shots, move them out of there comfort zone and not get impatient going for winners when they aren't there. They try and get you to beat yourself and that's why I think most people don't like playing them. It puts the pressure directly on your own game and forces you to perform.

Who is the "smarter" player? The "pusher" who wins by making less errors...or the "non-pusher", who loses all the time because his "pretty" shots more often than not, hit the net or the fence???
 
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Took me a long time to realize this...

I hate pushers because they highlight my deficiencies.

I have spent so much time, refining technique, technique, technique, and here comes a guy with **** poor technique, it made me think all my training was for naught. What I didn't realize (in the past), is that tennis is much more than pretty groundstrokes... While up to 4.0, technique is the main focus... but at the higher levels (eg. 4.0+) other factors come higher into play: movement, mental toughness, smart split second decisions, conditioning, consistency, agility, etc... So while I was good beating up on 3.5's with my "superior" technique (eg. topspin forehand and backhand, spinny serves, etc...) when I came across 4.0 pushers, they highlighted that while my technique was superior, everything else needed help.

Like:
* They were in better conditioning that me - often pushers I ran into were formerly/currently marathoners or ultramarathoners.
* The made better decisions than me... mainly because they only had one decision, high & deep into the court - while I was trying to aim my shots, hit corners, etc...
* the hit deeper than me... because that's all they focused on practicing... whereas my immature topspinny shots had a tendency to land short.
* as a baseliner, they highlighted a poor overhead and net game... so my first strategy i read on beating pushers was "come to net", but that only works if my approach shots, volleys and overheads, especially my overheads, were decent... how many folks practice overheads and approach shots daily? I didn't. At the time, my practice usually consisted of hitting baseline to baseline for an hour (not even cross court).
* highlighted my poor midcourt game... despite having technically correct strokes, they highlighted i could only hit them from the baseline... I couldn't finish consistently whenever they gave me a short midcourt ball

That said... I've learned to love playing them, because I realize they are the grinding stone that will make me sharper.
 
nytennisaddict said:
Took me a long time to realize this...

I hate pushers because they highlight my deficiencies.

I have spent so much time, refining technique, technique, technique, and here comes a guy with **** poor technique, it made me think all my training was for naught. What I didn't realize (in the past), is that tennis is much more than pretty groundstrokes... While up to 4.0, technique is the main focus... but at the higher levels (eg. 4.0+) other factors come higher into play: movement, mental toughness, smart split second decisions, conditioning, consistency, agility, etc... So while I was good beating up on 3.5's with my "superior" technique (eg. topspin forehand and backhand, spinny serves, etc...) when I came across 4.0 pushers, they highlighted that while my technique was superior, everything else needed help.

Like:
* They were in better conditioning that me - often pushers I ran into were formerly/currently marathoners or ultramarathoners.
* The made better decisions than me... mainly because they only had one decision, high & deep into the court - while I was trying to aim my shots, hit corners, etc...
* the hit deeper than me... because that's all they focused on practicing... whereas my immature topspinny shots had a tendency to land short.
* as a baseliner, they highlighted a poor overhead and net game... so my first strategy i read on beating pushers was "come to net", but that only works if my approach shots, volleys and overheads, especially my overheads, were decent... how many folks practice overheads and approach shots daily? I didn't. At the time, my practice usually consisted of hitting baseline to baseline for an hour (not even cross court).
* highlighted my poor midcourt game... despite having technically correct strokes, they highlighted i could only hit them from the baseline... I couldn't finish consistently whenever they gave me a short midcourt ball

That said... I've learned to love playing them, because I realize they are the grinding stone that will make me sharper.
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outstanding post! I admire your honesty. Well done! :grin::grin:
 
FanOfLu said:
Why do people hate pushers? It's not like that pushers cheat with their playing style. So do you hate pushers? If so, why?
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More simple really...

People hate playing pushers because they don't contribute enough UEs to help them win points, which forces them to be able to finish points. Most players struggle to actually finish points and imo it often stems from poor ideas about the need to get sideways and step into attackable balls.
 
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I have ABSOLUTE ZERO respect for pushers in pro game. They're just bad anorectic marathoners, with no explosiveness or any muscle related tennis fitness, and are in too bad condition to compete on marathon. Tennis SHOULD BE an anaerobic/explosive full-body sport, not some low level running contest. Sorry, no admiration for the anorectics in sports. :mad:

And there indeed is one true pusher in women's top10. As long as she's within the top20, I won't ever watch the women's game!

However, playing against pushers is a great workout! They force you to develop good footwork and approach shots. Just get time away from them, that's all what's required to win.
 
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5263 said:
More simple really...

People hate playing pushers because they don't contribute enough UEs to help them win points, which forces them to be able to finish points. Most players struggle to actually finish points and imo it often stems from poor ideas about the need to get sideways and step into attackable balls.
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Exactly. Nothing more demoralizing that moving a pusher (or anyone) around the court in a 5+ ball rally, finally get a mid court ball to attack (or overhead), then flub it into the net/long... again and again and again... unless you realize that this is a right of passage to get to the upper levels. Pushers stand as gate keepers to the elusive land of "good players" :P
 
well guys, I love playing pushers because:

(1) they can get the ball back unlike the players who cannot keep the ball in play. I would rather engaging in a rally with them than spending time picking up the balls every 5 seconds.

(2) by definition, pushers don't go for winners so there is less pressure in playing them than playing against the players who want to hurt you with their strokes. They don't rush you, you can take your own time when you want to hit those decisive winners.

(3) I would get a better work out by playing against a pusher. When I play tennis, I want to run and cover the court. With other types of player, sometimes only my arms get to work out :shock:

(4) Usually, I would win :)
 
I know people will automatically accuse anyone of not liking pushers as having lost to said pushers, but that's not always the case. Pros, I could care less. Personally, I have played (and beat) plenty of "pushers" and though it's not my normal playing style, I have "pushed" or at least partially pushed when I needed to - up against some idiot who has nice shots, but always goes for way too much and misses a lot when he could be much more competitive if he was more selective in his aggression.

For, me how "good" someone is at tennis has nothing to do with game style, but with their ability to win. yeah, I've been frustrated by and lost to some "pushers." But, they beat me fair and square, so be it. They were better. I didn't feel like i deserved to win or that some sot of cosmic order was upset because I lost to someone with a less "dynamic" game.
 
because they dont play to win, they play not to lose

now, personally it not that I dont like playing them : they cant hurt me, have plenty of time to think etc etc

if you are more skilled then pusher (have weapons), it is easy to play, you just need to want that win as bad as they do ... skill will do the rest
 
Easy Rider said:
because they dont play to win, they play not to lose
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I don't see how that's any different? Isn't "not losing" the same as winning?
Pusher's have just found a winning strategy that works for them on some level.

Tennis will always be more about who makes less errors, moreso than who hits more winners. It's just the nature of the game.

To me, it's about WHEN you should go for winners and WHEN you should play it safe.
 
It's rather simple.

Majority of pushers haters are those who are arrogant, close minded plus bad at tennis and sportsmanship. This is the combination that's needed to make a person a pusher hater.

------

Enough with the statement "they dont play to win, they play not to lose". It's convoluted and makes no sense logically. Only over complicates communication. The only outcome of not to lose is to win.
 
People hate them because they can't beat them.
The funny thing is at the tennis club, a lot of these people who complain about pushers are pushers and they don't even know it.
 
HRB said:
Also...be honest..who the hell likes being a pusher? Does anyone look forward to their match and get pumped up by saying to themselves.."ALL RIGHT, LET'S DO THIS! Time to get out there and play it safe, put the ball back in play and SURVIVE THIS GUY!!!!! Let's go!" then after do they drive home with pride, having won on their opponents 30 UE's to their 4, but having watched 20 clean winners rip by them while they produced 1, shoot me!!
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I'm definitely a quasi pusher in the sense that I don't hit with much pace... and I love it! I find it sadistically satisfying to play someone in a tournament who thinks they're good at tennis only to have them throwing their racquet by the end of the first set. Yes, I find that extremely entertaining.
 
"because they dont play to win, they play not to lose"

This is really a meaningless cliche. I think it should be changed to "because they don't try to hit winners (that they are not capable of), they keep the ball in play"

Everyone I have ever known to complain of pushers, don't realize that they are causing their opponent to be a pusher. If I'm playing an inconsistent player, I'll just hit loopy topspins up the middle and wait for them to implode. If my opponent is really consistent, then I'll try to step up my game and be more offensive.

It's the same way doubles players complain of lobbers and don't realize they are causing themselves to be lobbed.
 
Players hate pushers because they fear losing to them and feeling humiliated. I don't hate them but don't prefer playing with them because it is not much fun.

Watching a pusher playing is not fun either. What is worse is watching two pushers playing with each other.

I don't agree that there aren't any pushers in pro tennis. There are many in women's tennis (one of them even got to the US Open semi-finals this year) and some pusher-like in men's like Simon.
 
JackB1 said:
It's winning by superior physical ability and skill over patience and mental toughness. Who is the "smarter" player? The "pusher" who wins by making less errors...or the "non-pusher", who loses all the time because his "pretty" shots more often than not, hit the net or the fence???
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I don't agree pushers are the ones with most "mental toughness". I think it takes more courage and sharpness to hit someone off the court, rather than just hitting the ball back and wait - which a lot of players find easy but very boring and unsatisfactory. It's not like the attacking player "loses all the time" when facing pushers when you hit a certain level, I am sure you are aware of that.
Many players are also more into developing their own game, which may imply loosing to players with bad technique and defensive game, rather than just winning, which by itself doesn't make you a better tennis player. I think you get better when you dare apply your skills into a match situation, "let loose" so to speak. To a lot of players, winning is a result of mastery, not a short-term goal. It demands good skills to capitalize on loopy shots or moonballs. But there's simply more to life than just hitting it back the same way. To some. To others, it's fine.
 
This reminds me of playing styles in chess: open vs closed. The open is an attacking, combinatorial style while the closed position is very slow, gaining minute advantages and taking minimal risks. The open player playing a closed game may feel like he's suffocating little by little. It's also a way for a weaker player to draw or beat a stronger player that isn't comfortable with this style.

Also comparable to the chopper in table tennis.
 
JackB1 said:
I don't see how that's any different? Isn't "not losing" the same as winning?
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Let me rephrase : They think that if they control themselves they gonna control the outcome

@Willeric
they are capable to hit winners ... it is not about capability, it is about attitude
 
People don't hate pushers. They hate losing. So when they lose they label that person a pusher.

Pusher isn't really a class of player - its a derogative comment made by other players to degrade them and support their ego.

As far as actual play quality goes - there tends to be a vanishingly small difference in play.. Outside of the bashkin park video I haven't seen a guy just pushing a player to death IRL.

Even guys like Nadal, Murray et al - they still play approximately as well as guys like Federer and Del Potro. It's only the hater that calls one guy a pusher. Using a slightly more defensive pattern doesn't make someone a 'pusher' but when you lose to that person it does make you a 'loser'..
 
jrs said:
People hate them because they can't beat them.
The funny thing is at the tennis club, a lot of these people who complain about pushers are pushers and they don't even know it.
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actually they are worse than the pushers because not only don't they have the weapons (to beat the pushers) but they don't have the consistency to hang with them either :shock: :)
 
I have observed one guy at my tennis center who, when given any choice in the matter, will throw up a twenty foot high lob. It lands deeper than service line and often has people scrambling toward the back fence. This fellow is old, so I don't know if this is something he went to late in life or not. I get a distasteful sensation watching him play, knowing that he's just going to throw up a high ball and everyone is going to have to sit there and wait for it to come down. It's repellent, I think, because the other folks are trying to hit groundies, volleys, patterns--that is, play tennis--and this person can hang with them by choosing to specialize in this one primitive shot. Part of the reason it's bad is because it's a type of cheating, breaking the social contract of how normal people play tennis. Sure, it works, but you could also choose to not tip your waiters, complain at restaurants and get free meals, come in 2 minutes before the buffet changes to get lunch prices. There are lots of ways in life to game the system and get an advantage if you have no sense of conscience about it, if you really don't care about your reputation, if winning really is the only thing.
 
LakeSnake said:
I have observed one guy at my tennis center who, when given any choice in the matter, will throw up a twenty foot high lob. It lands deeper than service line and often has people scrambling toward the back fence. This fellow is old, so I don't know if this is something he went to late in life or not. I get a distasteful sensation watching him play, knowing that he's just going to throw up a high ball and everyone is going to have to sit there and wait for it to come down. It's repellent, I think, because the other folks are trying to hit groundies, volleys, patterns--that is, play tennis--and this person can hang with them by choosing to specialize in this one primitive shot. Part of the reason it's bad is because it's a type of cheating, breaking the social contract of how normal people play tennis. Sure, it works, but you could also choose to not tip your waiters, complain at restaurants and get free meals, come in 2 minutes before the buffet changes to get lunch prices. There are lots of ways in life to game the system and get an advantage if you have no sense of conscience about it, if you really don't care about your reputation, if winning really is the only thing.
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Ummm, huh?:?

Did you actually call a lob "cheating"? And what is this "social contract" you speak of? Reminds me of how the the Brits would chastise Americans for shooting at them from behind cover during the American Revolution, instead of standing in a proper firing line.

And, again, if you can't put away a lob that bounces high enough to become an overhead, you simply aren't that good.

Cheat: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination. I'm afraid lobs do not fall into this category.
 
haha. In tennis, we are taught to hit the kind of shots that our opponents dislike the most.

For example, if you were Rafa Nadal, would you want to hit the ball to Roger Federer's forehand? :shock:
 
LakeSnake said:
I have observed one guy at my tennis center who, when given any choice in the matter, will throw up a twenty foot high lob. It lands deeper than service line and often has people scrambling toward the back fence. This fellow is old, so I don't know if this is something he went to late in life or not. I get a distasteful sensation watching him play, knowing that he's just going to throw up a high ball and everyone is going to have to sit there and wait for it to come down. It's repellent, I think, because the other folks are trying to hit groundies, volleys, patterns--that is, play tennis--and this person can hang with them by choosing to specialize in this one primitive shot. Part of the reason it's bad is because it's a type of cheating, breaking the social contract of how normal people play tennis. Sure, it works, but you could also choose to not tip your waiters, complain at restaurants and get free meals, come in 2 minutes before the buffet changes to get lunch prices. There are lots of ways in life to game the system and get an advantage if you have no sense of conscience about it, if you really don't care about your reputation, if winning really is the only thing.
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If it's every single shot, then just come in and hit an overhead before it bounces.

If you're not sure of your overhead, then hit a swinging topspin volley.
 
I realize my scenario is totally different than the usual ball-basher losing to the smart player who actually knows the game and chooses to hit at less than full speed for every shot. Libby lobber, who wants to hit lobs for all her shots, is only "cheating" in the sense that she's playing a different game than everyone else--she's not cooperating, so no one else gets to have fun. Yet I can see my analogy of the "social contract" is not resonating. Personally, I am looking forward to playing the lobber, because it will be a challenge and I want to get to the point where I can consistently take them as overheads.
 
LakeSnake said:
I realize my scenario is totally different than the usual ball-basher losing to the smart player who actually knows the game and chooses to hit at less than full speed for every shot. Libby lobber, who wants to hit lobs for all her shots, is only "cheating" in the sense that she's playing a different game than everyone else--she's not cooperating, so no one else gets to have fun. Yet I can see my analogy of the "social contract" is not resonating. Personally, I am looking forward to playing the lobber, because it will be a challenge and I want to get to the point where I can consistently take them as overheads.
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if you don't want a player to lob you on every shot, just hit short balls and bring him/her to the net. In my experience, nobody would hit a lob when they are at the net. It would be interesting to see if that person still does it, though :)
 
Kerber played Cibulkova in a quarters earlier this week and Kerber hit a lot of high balls back against Cibulkova's hard groundstrokes to the corners. Kerber won the match in straight sets. So this stuff can work at high levels.
 
LakeSnake said:
I have observed one guy at my tennis center who, when given any choice in the matter, will throw up a twenty foot high lob. It lands deeper than service line and often has people scrambling toward the back fence. This fellow is old, so I don't know if this is something he went to late in life or not. I get a distasteful sensation watching him play, knowing that he's just going to throw up a high ball and everyone is going to have to sit there and wait for it to come down. It's repellent, I think, because the other folks are trying to hit groundies, volleys, patterns--that is, play tennis--and this person can hang with them by choosing to specialize in this one primitive shot. Part of the reason it's bad is because it's a type of cheating, breaking the social contract of how normal people play tennis. Sure, it works, but you could also choose to not tip your waiters, complain at restaurants and get free meals, come in 2 minutes before the buffet changes to get lunch prices. There are lots of ways in life to game the system and get an advantage if you have no sense of conscience about it, if you really don't care about your reputation, if winning really is the only thing.
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Sounds like the folks this guy plays with never learned how to hit a proper overhead... that ain't his fault. This guy sounds like a not-so-good tennis player that a bunch of even worse tennis players can't beat. Which is not particularly unusual...
 
i don't mind losing.. i like to find players who can outplay me..rather than chip and chase.. i play 4-5 times a week and hate to walk off the court depressed that i wasted a chance to play some great tennis because the junk baller or pusher didn't come to play
 
swizzy said:
i don't mind losing.. i like to find players who can outplay me..rather than chip and chase..
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It's really simple: if you lost, by definition, you got outplayed. I'm surprised by how many people are confused by this concept. I suppose people will come up with just about any rationalization to avoid the unpleasant realization that they are even worse than their opponent, whose game they disparage.
 
navigator said:
I'm definitely a quasi pusher in the sense that I don't hit with much pace... and I love it! I find it sadistically satisfying to play someone in a tournament who thinks they're good at tennis only to have them throwing their racquet by the end of the first set. Yes, I find that extremely entertaining.
Click to expand...

To each their own, and more power to you, personally I never take satisfaction in how I left my opponent feeling. No one, let alone a pusher has ever left me smashing my racquet, if I'm ever ****ed off it is clearly at MY play or lack of.

For me it's about my pure enjoyment of playing aggressive, taking my chances, and going for it..win or lose (thankfully on a win streak of late) if I go home having been competitive, gotten my share of winners I'm satisfied. It is not my job, I am not making money off it, so why the hell be safe, play the game you enjoy!

Now, if you enjoy pushing, or winning no matter how, then god bless you and enjoy.:twisted:
 
yeah but the good players don't want to lose matches. that's why they play safe and don't hit out on every ball.

if you enjoy hitting out on every ball, more power to you too :)
 
I have a friend who usually boasts to beat me from my own errors. This year I widened my lead against him and he also improved against other players. So playing someone who usually don't gift a lot if free points by committing UEs is very helpful.
 
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