Why do people hate pushers?

[Deleted member 23235]

...I don't underhand 'drop' serve, but I do something that serves the same purpose. I'm a lefty with a fairly hard flat serve; if you stand too far back to compensate, I have slice serve with a very low quick toss and a very dramatic curve out wide to the righty backhand. If you're ten feet behind the baseline (especially if you're covering the big flat serve up the T at all), you'll never catch up to it on the AD side.

Sadly I don't own that serve (mine doesn't curve dramatically... probably too much pace and not enough spin), but have always wanted it!... Perhaps I'll practice the "low toss to my right" to hit around the ball, a bit more.

That's an effective serve even if it's telegraphed (especially if someone is
standing far back guarding the T shot)

 

[Mick]

Come to australia and beat some of the ones here then please. But be prepared to bend over and over and over and over and then when you finally win the point have it called out or long. Having said that though, i cant be be too mad towards pushers. Australia is the number 1 in the world for recreational drug use and pirate downloading. So these are the kind of people im stuck playing with and being around in general...

Never been to Australia but I do watch the Australian Open on TV every year.
I surrender because the weather down under is way too hot for me to handle, let alone having to play against some good pushers

 

[LakeSnake]

Nice post, nytennisaddict. After my lesson today, my hitting partner was whaling on feeds from my coach. I sat there and watched him go deep, good pace, consistent for about five minutes on both sides. I was in shock because when we hit, the guy sprays things left and right and rarely hits a good quality shot, if something is around his shoulders it's a guaranteed miss--and this is with me trying to feed him nicely (which I'm not good at, unfortunately). If he could hit like that in real matchplay, he'd be pretty tough!

 

[Deleted member 23235]

...
I have a tactic to play against you should we ever meet. I'll hire a hairy,fat guy to take his shirt off to hurt your eyes when you're about to serve. And there will be nothing you can do about it because he'll be at the sidelines. While he's wobbling and jiggling away, i'll figure out the best way to win without hurting my eyes in the process.

A beautiful woman would have the same effect... maybe even more effective. Just sayin...

 

[fullpolyserve&volley]

Haha yeah but then youll have incentive to show off and you could beat me doing that. Not taking that chance. Also the chick might want more money.

 

[LoboLaw1984]

Because they are inherently frustrating to play against.

 

[SoBad]

In tennis sometimes two people can see the same thing in two completely different ways. Also happens in jurisprudence.

 

[heninfan99]

I think the main reason is that pushers never seem to have a true love for the game of tennis or it's beauty.

 

[fullpolyserve&volley]

My opinion has softened a little towards what a true pusher is.

Old australian definition of pusher: an old drug addicted wierdo that goes out of their way to not play the game properly in order to win in ways that are obscure, narcissistic and often boring. Known for hurting the revenue and membership number of any tennis club. Particularly skilled in killing the enthusiasm and/or frigthening young juniors looking to transition into the adult leagues.

New defintion of pusher: a defensive player who is not a big ball striker and lets the strings do the work. They will put a priority on steadiness, speed and endurance to their game.

 

[jdubbs]

New defintion of pusher: a defensive player who is not a big ball striker and lets the strings do the work. They will put a priority on steadiness, speed and endurance to their game.

If that's the new definition, then wow I played a master 4.5 pusher this weekend. We only played king of the court games up to 11, but I lost all 4 games.

My usual strategy of hit the ball high to the corners and come in was off because he had great passing and lobbing skills. I missed a lot of shots in the mid court on his shorter balls. That was my main problem.

But he could keep the ball going absolutely forever, and eventually I started missing. I'm an aggressive player who likes to dictate points when possible. It just didn't work against him, and I can't wait to play him again, but I may need a lesson in the meantime to work on put away mid court shorter shots.

 

[Mick]

good luck
Jack Kramer once said when the ultimate offensive player plays the ultimate defensive player, the ultimate offensive player should prevail

 

[jdubbs]

good luck
Jack Kramer once said when the ultimate offensive player plays the ultimate defensive player, the ultimate offensive player should prevail

That was with the old woodie rackets. With the new big rackets and strings, defense is at a premium now. Pretty sure the dynamic has changed from that respect.

 

[LeeD]

In football, basketball, and baseball, when the ultimate defense plays the ultimate offense in postseason play, the defense minded team almost ALWAYS wins.

 

[GuyClinch]

Defense is way more important in tennis then say basketball.. Defense scores you points directly in tennis. Not true in hoops.

 

[zaph]

Oh that is easy, because they get beat by them. The problem is the difference between what the pros do and what the coaching manual says, and the reality for low level rec players, which I am one.

It isn't just block pushers, it is people who hit short slice that dies. The rec players complains nobody does that to Federer or Nadal. Of course if someone did that to Federer or Nadal, the pros excellent footwork and control would mean they instantly won the point.

On one level I get it, playing a doubles match against pushers isn't fun. You complain they suck you down to their level, but in reality they are simply revealing your level.

They still beat me, but pushers have made me a better player. I am much steadier than I was, I can play up the court with some success, my footwork has been made better by them.

Plus they have taught me a new way to play. There is someone I play who loves power, so I just feed him junk. Lots of high loopy serves, slice lobs and he self destructs. Not pure tennis, but it is effective.

 

[heninfan99]

Pushers have often failed at another sport or had to stop for whatever reason and then they stumble upon tennis and realize they can get their competitive juices flowing but they don't appreciate the sport on any other level.

So it's like a tone deaf person singing karaoke. He's having a blast but torturing others. The bar will give him a few free drinks. lol

 

[donquijote]

In football, basketball, and baseball, when the ultimate defense plays the ultimate offense in postseason play, the defense minded team almost ALWAYS wins.

In tennis, ultimate defensive players almost never win a grand slam or a big tournament. It's a bit different though between female and male tennis.

In female tennis, almost all grand slam winners like Serena, Sharapova, Kvitova, Li Na, Azarenka have weapons to attack. Players like Radwanska, Kerber, Errani eventually fall to one of these players even though they sometimes can make it to the semis or final.

Male tennis is a bit different. Defense is more important because most male players have good serves and forehands but players like Federer, Delpo who have attacking style can still win grand slams.

 

[Tennis_Fever]

Pushers have often failed at another sport or had to stop for whatever reason and then they stumble upon tennis and realize they can get their competitive juices flowing but they don't appreciate the sport on any other level.

So it's like a tone deaf person singing karaoke. He's having a blast but torturing others. The bar will give him a few free drinks. lol

This. Probably the best explanation of a pusher I have ever read. Well said!

 

[heninfan99]

thanks. I originated the Wiki page on Pushers (in tennis) many years ago after losing to one!

This. Probably the best explanation of a pusher I have ever read. Well said!

 

[Mick]

It's kinda weird seeing Murray and Simon wearing this shirt :shock:
as most people here consider them as "pushers"

 

[Kavala]

I hate club pushers (3.5 level) because they generally do not want to improve. They ended up with an ugly game with a lot of spinless lobs and think that is ok. It never occurs to them that with a litte effort they could have a better game (they spend enough time on the court - they could definitely do it).
I am glad I moved up and do not have to play with them anymore.

This is exactly right.
I long passed the point where pushers are a problem in match situations, but i remember it. They tear down their hitting partners ability to develop timing, shots, technical acumen and they fail to develop their own. They rob players at the 3.5 level of confidence and can impede their progress in this way. Also, in match play they have a higher than normal tendency to call "out" their opponents shots that hit the line on what should be winner dtl or extreme angle shots (these are the shots needed to beat pushers). Sure, they present an opportunity to work on footwork but for the people who only get a chance to come on the court a few times a month they can sure feel like a way to ruin what could otherwise be a nice afternoon.

 

[movdqa]

This is exactly right.
I long passed the point where pushers are a problem in match situations, but i remember it. They tear down their hitting partners ability to develop timing, shots, technical acumen and they fail to develop their own. They rob players at the 3.5 level of confidence and can impede their progress in this way. Also, in match play they have a higher than normal tendency to call "out" their opponents shots that hit the line on what should be winner dtl or extreme angle shots (these are the shots needed to beat pushers). Sure, they present an opportunity to work on footwork but for the people who only get a chance to come on the court a few times a month they can sure feel like a way to ruin what could otherwise be a nice afternoon.

It separates those who will do what it takes to improve from those that won't.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

I love playing pushers, they're a real confidence booster. Unfortunately I don't play many of them nowadays, I miss the good old days of facing opponents that had no weapons and gave me all the time in the world to use mine.

 

[34n]

Two famous WTA pushers ))

 

[tennis_balla]

The one thing that a pusher has which the vast majority of club players lack is a game plan. It’s a simple one, get every ball back, but it’s a game plan, and they stick to it and it works. A lot of club players either shoot from the hip or are all over the shop in terms of what they wanna do on court that it’s no wonder the pusher wins.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I hate club pushers (3.5 level) .... It never occurs to them that with a little effort they could have a better game

Wrong. It takes Herculean effort to rebuild a pusher game into an aggressive attacking game.
Face it, 99% of adults do not have the time or money or knowledge to develop an aggressive attacking 5.0 style game.

It will take at least a year of 5x/week playing/coaching to develop a stable and reliable attacking game.

For those who want to win tennis matches, pushing is the solution in the real world.
Until then, push or be pushed.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

The one thing that a pusher has which the vast majority of club players lack is a game plan. It’s a simple one, get every ball back, but it’s a game plan, and they stick to it and it works. A lot of club players either shoot from the hip or are all over the shop in terms of what they wanna do on court that it’s no wonder the pusher wins.

Get every ball back is literally the best game plan you can possibly have.

 

[AlxThm]

I like playing against someone who wants to win, and i hate loosing against someone who just doesn't want to lose, thats why i hate pushers, i feel like i'm playig against someone who doesn't want to play at all

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I like playing against someone who wants to win, and i hate loosing against someone who just doesn't want to lose, thats why i hate pushers, i feel like i'm playig against someone who doesn't want to play at all

If they didn't want to play at all, why are they out there? Obviously it's because they want to play. You're just mis-interpreting the pusher philosophy as "not wanting to play".

The more interesting question is "what are you going to do to prepare?" Are you going to develop the shots necessary to beat this strategy or just accept that whenever you play a pusher it won't be any fun?

 

[SteveI]

Pusher hate seems to be fairly universal.

Only on this board do I see people brag about being pushers.

When I was coaching tennis, even pushers hated to play other pushers during a match. It was funny to watch a pusher complain about how much he hated pushers. Probably because the fitness requirements were so great and the match was so boring.

I have coached HS tennis for years. When I see two pushers going at it.. and it is getting colder and darker and am not a happy guy. I go out of my way to help my players improve and help to learn to end points quickly in their favor. From a long term approach to playing into your 50's and 60's it is not a winning formula. No matter how great of shape you appear to be in... you wear our your joints. Better to figure out how to play shorter points.. get some weapons and improve. The other option is to quit the game or get ready for hip and knee replacement. Tennis will tear your body apart.. it is a fact.

 

[AlxThm]

If they didn't want to play at all, why are they out there? Obviously it's because they want to play. You're just mis-interpreting the pusher philosophy as "not wanting to play".

The more interesting question is "what are you going to do to prepare?" Are you going to develop the shots necessary to beat this strategy or just accept that whenever you play a pusher it won't be any fun?

Well i bareley lose against pushers now, but it cost me hours and hours and loses against them and being asked by my friends at my club "Do you relly lost against him?!!!" to get to know the rythm and how to play without wanting to kill them, with a 100 mph straight to the net shot so now i don't lose, but its not fun at all, playing with someone who doesn't challenges you at all on a tournament match

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Q: Why do people hate pushers?
A: Because the pusher don't care if you live or if you DIE

youtube.com/watch?v=3XqyGoE2Q4Y&t=69

Spoiler: BONUS

While Steppenwolf is credited with making The Pusher popular, it was this guy that actually wrote it:

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I like playing against someone who wants to win, and i hate loosing against someone who just doesn't want to lose, thats why i hate pushers, i feel like i'm playig against someone who doesn't want to play at all

That's funny, I feel the total opposite.
I most definitely prefer to play a slicer/pusher than a maniac who can't hit 3 balls in a row.

The 3.5 maniac spazzz is the one who does not want to win (or improve)
The pusher wants to win (and often does)

When I am scheduled to play a maniac, I get turned off.
First, I know it will be a cake victory that will not test me.
It will not improve my game at this point.
Guaranteed win at this point.

When I am scheduled to play a controlled "pusher", I get excited for a good match.
I know I will need to play my best tennis to win.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Well i bareley lose against pushers now, but it cost me hours and hours and loses against them and being asked by my friends at my club "Do you relly lost against him?!!!" to get to know the rythm and how to play without wanting to kill them, with a 100 mph straight to the net shot so now i don't lose, but its not fun at all, playing with someone who doesn't challenges you at all on a tournament match

Yes, but you stuck to it and learned to beat the pusher.
Most cop out and refuse to play.

Once I learned to beat the pusher,
I realized I also could beat many other styles.

Pusher is the gatekeeper of 4.0 tennis says @nytennisaddict

 

[travlerajm]

Pusher is the gatekeeper of 4.0 tennis says @nytennisaddict

As a 4.5+ player who often resorts to pushing, I like to think of myself as a gatekeeper to 5.0 tennis.

 

[user92626]

I have coached HS tennis for years. When I see two pushers going at it.. and it is getting colder and darker and am not a happy guy. I go out of my way to help my players improve and help to learn to end points quickly in their favor. From a long term approach to playing into your 50's and 60's it is not a winning formula. No matter how great of shape you appear to be in... you wear our your joints. Better to figure out how to play shorter points.. get some weapons and improve. The other option is to quit the game or get ready for hip and knee replacement. Tennis will tear your body apart.. it is a fact.

Pushers (or pushing) exist simply because their opponents suck. In other words they are encouraged to push by their sucky opponents.

Pushers can't push, play the way they play if they get punished consistently.

You gotta be a stupid player or an insane one if you keep playing low risk, safe tennis, or whatever it is that you define as pushing, and lose.

So, get pushers to play better level opponents. They'll be laughed off the court and considered as no more than a bad loser.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

As a 4.5+ player who often resorts to pushing, I like to think of myself as a gatekeeper to 5.0 tennis.

this highlight reel has some high level pusher shots! (ie. all continental grip lob/bunt type shots!)

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Pushers (or pushing) exist simply because their opponents suck. In other words they are encouraged to push by their sucky opponents.

Pushers can't push, play the way they play if they get punished consistently.

You gotta be a stupid player or an insane one if you keep playing low risk, safe tennis, or whatever it is that you define as pushing, and lose.

So, get pushers to play better level opponents. They'll be laughed off the court and considered as no more than a bad loser.

The problem is that these mythical "better" players barely exist.

Most players are naturally a 3.5 with some time on the court.

The 4.0 player has invested a non-trivial amount of time into the game.
If you're a 4.0 pusher/dinker, you can do that pretty well.
If you're a 4.0 basher, you can bash pretty consistently.
Very few players ever get to 4.0

I've seen a retriever/pusher demolish a "pretty" 4.0 with a score of 6-2.
Same retriever can bagel a typical 3.5.
So, you can absolutely get to 4.0 as a rock solid wall.
But, those guys play almost every day, year in, year out.

I don't think you can be a competitive 4.5 player without playing a lot.
Most adult players do not play 4x a week.
The rare 4.5 is someone who has devoted their life to tennis, to some extent.
The number of 4.5 players vs. 3.0/3.5/4.0 must be 1:100
So, the rec pusher literally never even sees these players in the flesh.

One must ask, who cares if the pusher suddenly transforms into a basher 4.5 ?
He will have one guy in the state who he can hit with.
So, this "pusher's end of the road is 4.0" is moot.
Most players' end of the road is 4.0 anyway.
So, push on, and keep your 4.5 fantasy alive.
The stark reality is that it's never going to be anything more than that.
In the meantime, keep whining about pushers who beat you.
They may never progress, but who is to say there are not at their final destination?

 

[tlm]

That's funny, I feel the total opposite.
I most definitely prefer to play a slicer/pusher than a maniac who can't hit 3 balls in a row.

The 3.5 maniac spazzz is the one who does not want to win (or improve)
The pusher wants to win (and often does)

When I am scheduled to play a maniac, I get turned off.
First, I know it will be a cake victory that will not test me.
It will not improve my game at this point.
Guaranteed win at this point.

When I am scheduled to play a controlled "pusher", I get excited for a good match.
I know I will need to play my best tennis to win.

This is a good point. I played a guy Saturday in a league match and he was a gunslinger and had a big serve. But was way to inconsistent and pretty much like you call a 3.5 spazz. Could hit some big bombs but could rarely keep a rally going.

I won pretty easily and it was not much fun because it was bang bang on most points and start over again. Pretty easy game plan just get in the point and move him around some and he will make a bunch of errors and collect the easy win.

If I would have played a smarter more consistent player or what some call a pusher I would have had to work harder and keep trying different combinations of play to break my opponent down.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

This is a good point. I played a guy Saturday in a league match and he was a gunslinger and had a big serve. But was way to inconsistent and pretty much like you call a 3.5 spazz. Could hit some big bombs but could rarely keep a rally going.

I won pretty easily and it was not much fun because it was bang bang on most points and start over again. Pretty easy game plan just get in the point and move him around some and he will make a bunch of errors and collect the easy win.

If I would have played a smarter more consistent player or what some call a pusher I would have had to work harder and keep trying different combinations of play to break my opponent down.

Reminds me of a recent match: I don't think a single rally went beyond 5 shots. He would tear the cover off of the ball and either hit a winner or make a horrible error. It was a double bagel [I won] and it was the least fun I've had in a while.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Appropriate response after playing a g-damn pusher man:

Spoiler

 

[user92626]

The problem is that these mythical "better" players barely exist.

Most players are naturally a 3.5 with some time on the court.

The 4.0 player has invested a non-trivial amount of time into the game.
If you're a 4.0 pusher/dinker, you can do that pretty well.
If you're a 4.0 basher, you can bash pretty consistently.
Very few players ever get to 4.0

I've seen a retriever/pusher demolish a "pretty" 4.0 with a score of 6-2.
Same retriever can bagel a typical 3.5.
So, you can absolutely get to 4.0 as a rock solid wall.
But, those guys play almost every day, year in, year out.

I don't think you can be a competitive 4.5 player without playing a lot.
Most adult players do not play 4x a week.
The rare 4.5 is someone who has devoted their life to tennis, to some extent.
The number of 4.5 players vs. 3.0/3.5/4.0 must be 1:100
So, the rec pusher literally never even sees these players in the flesh.

One must ask, who cares if the pusher suddenly transforms into a basher 4.5 ?
He will have one guy in the state who he can hit with.
So, this "pusher's end of the road is 4.0" is moot.
Most players' end of the road is 4.0 anyway.
So, push on, and keep your 4.5 fantasy alive.
The stark reality is that it's never going to be anything more than that.
In the meantime, keep whining about pushers who beat you.
They may never progress, but who is to say there are not at their final destination?

There are plenty of 4.0 or better players if you play (local) leagues and USTA tournaments. They don't need to play 4x a week. Usually they have played for 10 years or more and are fit and competitive.

No matter your level, there always seem to be better players out there or those who beat you by being more consistent in on way or another. But in this forum being more consistent against a sucky player tends to get labeled a pusher.

For me, I don't really care how my opponents play. Only thing that interests me is if they win or give me a close game. If they are pushing or bashing at 4.0 level, they are still 4.0 and their game can go either way against another 4.0.

Personally, I build my game around speed and fitness. The more the better. I never fear or lose to an opponent below a certain shot speed and/or fitness. Things are rather simple in my mind.

 

[Bender]

Wrong. It takes Herculean effort to rebuild a pusher game into an aggressive attacking game.
Face it, 99% of adults do not have the time or money or knowledge to develop an aggressive attacking 5.0 style game.

It will take at least a year of 5x/week playing/coaching to develop a stable and reliable attacking game.

For those who want to win tennis matches, pushing is the solution in the real world.
Until then, push or be pushed.

Agree 100%.

To suggest that it takes only a little effort to get proper strokes is to understate the complexities and nuances of correct tennis technique. Even improving footwork takes forever.

 

[mindmaster]

Me, I hate playing pushers (beat them when I hyper focus, but it is never fun) and I hate watching pushers..BUT..that being said I can't think of any true pushers at the pro-level, man or woman. Boring to watch defensive players, yes, but annoying as hell true pushers...no!

Also...be honest..who the hell likes being a pusher? Does anyone look forward to their match and get pumped up by saying to themselves.."ALL RIGHT, LET'S DO THIS! Time to get out there and play it safe, put the ball back in play and SURVIVE THIS GUY!!!!! Let's go!" then after do they drive home with pride, having won on their opponents 30 UE's to their 4, but having watched 20 clean winners rip by them while they produced 1, shoot me!!

I really enjoy pushing against better players and one of the best victories of my career was when I won a much more experienced player after pushing him to madness in 4hrs30min match. I'was a summer player so I was playing about 2,5 months in a year 2-3 times a week and facing a much better player technically should I challenge him to skill battle in competition if I have superb speed and endurance from playing badminton almost professionally? I enjoy chasing the ball much more than jogging. For me it used to be normal to go for 10km jog after playing 3hrs of tennis so more running I do on tennis match the less I need to jog afterwards. Playing against skillfull players has allways been nice challenge for me as I am a competitor and I choose tactic which I think gives me the best chance to win a match. I don't enjoy playing against weaker opponent who force me to be an attacking player. I love challenges. If you had djokovic's footwork, wouldn't you use it to your advantage against a better hitting player or would you just try to hit "nice looking" shots and go home losing quickly. Hating pushers is a sign that you don't understand anything about sport's in general. I don't like to play against tall serve bots, but I don't hate them for using their height for advantage. Tennis is nice sport where you can play with so many different style.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Pushers, annoying "REAL" tennis players for decades.

 

[jxs653]

Why do people hate pushers? Most of the time we see posters ridiculing and labeling certain pros as pushers ...

When I read comments like Hsieh Su-Wei cannot hit top spin drive, I felt the ignorance of some people reached a whole new level.

 

[LuckyR]

Pushers, annoying "REAL" tennis players for decades.

Right? The "REAL" game of tennis is pretty (yet inconsistent) strokes.

 

[socallefty]

Pushers don’t give you easy errors and make opponents hit winners or force errors to win points. Turns out that many of the players who think they are hard-hitters playing ‘proper’ tennis cannot hit winners or force errors when given a bunch of midcourt/short balls or mid court lobs typically in the middle of the court. It ruins their self-image of being good players and so they hate their ‘pusher’ opponent. To a spectator, it will look like two players playing bad tennis with one having much less shot tolerance than the other - they are not going to say that the loser is a good player.

The pushers also make them hit extra shots during each rally and test their physicality which unfortunately is not what most rec players want tested as many get a failing grade.

Once you learn to put away short balls and short lobs, attack slow serves etc. effectively and can actually hit a bunch of winners without missing much, you start using the word ‘cannon fodder’ instead of ‘pusher’ to describe these players. Until then, they will test the lack of technique and fitness of most rec players.

BTW, everyone with good shot tolerance and movement is not a pusher if they combine that ability to stay in rallies with the offensive firepower to end points quickly off their serve, +1 shot or with putaway shots/volleys. I know some here call everyone who makes less unforced errors ’pushers’ although that happens more when they are watching pro tennis.

 

[Zardoz7/12]

Pushers adhere to the most fundamental law in tennis: keep the ball in play. Technique should enhance consistency, not at the cost of it. Form should always follow function, not the other way around.

When the term "pusher" comes up I think of Brad Gilbert, every club player aspires to be Brad Gilbert. Athletic enough to be a tennis player but it stops there. What separates Brad from his opponents was not his serve, forehand or backhand, but his brain and strategy.

 

[Jono123]

I like pushers as they respect and understand that percentage tennis wins matches.

I can't remember playing one for at least 10 years, and I play three/four days a week at several local clubs. However, if I do encounter one, perhaps in the early rounds of a club comp, I will relish the opportunity to bury their moonballs and crush their punts.