MoxMonkey
Professional
It's always nice to see a man take pride in his humility.
Why do people sandbag?
- Thread starter MoxMonkey
- Start date
silentkman
Hall of Fame
HBK4life
Hall of Fame
Sounds about right for usta lol.
Bagumbawalla
Talk Tennis Guru
When I first started playing back in ancient times, there were 3 tournament levels-
A, B and C (the next step up, after "A" was "open"). They would sort of match up to our levels kind of like this-
A = 4.0-5.0
B = 3.5-4.5
C = 2.5-4.0
Notice lots of overlapping.
In my first "A" tournament (I should have been a "B") I was confident I would win my first round.
My opponent was old (so I thought). His knees were wrapped in athletic tape.
My friend and I referred to him as "the mummy". I lost by an embarrassing score.
Turned out he was men's tennis coach at the local college.
Even with sandbagging, things are better now- with a greater effort to keep like abilities grouped together.
Though, yes, it is a competitive sport, and it it is fun to win- well, in reality, it should be (almost) equally
fun to just participate (lose). Looking at it another way, what does it mean to be the best 3.5 player in the country?
Can't figure why people would feel the need to play the system (cheat) just for that honor.
A, B and C (the next step up, after "A" was "open"). They would sort of match up to our levels kind of like this-
A = 4.0-5.0
B = 3.5-4.5
C = 2.5-4.0
Notice lots of overlapping.
In my first "A" tournament (I should have been a "B") I was confident I would win my first round.
My opponent was old (so I thought). His knees were wrapped in athletic tape.
My friend and I referred to him as "the mummy". I lost by an embarrassing score.
Turned out he was men's tennis coach at the local college.
Even with sandbagging, things are better now- with a greater effort to keep like abilities grouped together.
Though, yes, it is a competitive sport, and it it is fun to win- well, in reality, it should be (almost) equally
fun to just participate (lose). Looking at it another way, what does it mean to be the best 3.5 player in the country?
Can't figure why people would feel the need to play the system (cheat) just for that honor.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
recreationalplayer
Semi-Pro
USTA sandbagging is the biggest reason men who innocently joined throw their arms up in exasperation and walk away. Pay to join USTA, pay again to register for a state tournament, pay yet again for travel, hotel, food. Only to get slapped by sandbaggers.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Sandbagging is not at all a concern of mine. I did not join USTA to win some X.0 national trophy. The reason I joined was to have some sort of objective measure to track possible improvement in my play - that is a rating system. Yes sand bagging can throw the accuracy of that system but on the whole USTA does so many other things that throw the value of the rating system sandbagging hardly makes the cut of concerns. USTA doesn't even publish the full dynamic rating because of the tiny number of players that obsess with winning a X.0 national trophy. It is truly ridiculous. You don't even win any money or for winning nationals.
I think their focus on nationals (as opposed to their rating system) is why 98% of tennis players choose to not play USTA.
I think their focus on nationals (as opposed to their rating system) is why 98% of tennis players choose to not play USTA.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
It’s probably a little less than 98%.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
97.35% sound better?
Tennis Participation 2023
https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/2024-pdfs/national-tennis-participation-report.pdf I do not think this research was actually done by USTA I think it was from tennisindustry.org. I think USTA just published some parts of it on their website - but I could be wrong. About 11.8 million...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
I sandbagged for a year so I could play on a team with friends...it was funny when you get to Sectionals/Nationals and you're playing other sandbaggers. Its like the Spiderman pointing meme.
dannyslicer
Professional
Interesting question.
Mike Tyson fighting an accountant
vs.
An accountant challenging Mike Tyson to a fight
Hard to compare.
One is a coward.
One is delusional and/or masochist and/or doing research
if tennis were physically violent this analogy might apply, but most folks choose tennis to avoid physical contact (even i after having trained martial arts for decades have given up martial arts because, well, sparring hurts, and recovery can be brutal - tennis elbow is joke compared to getting punched/kicked in the head, or getting joints torqued from bjj)... so when someone sandbags in a contact sport, there are real consequences (bodily harm)...
when i do play someone way above me in tennis, there are no consequences, instead it's all upside. i get to feel the power/placement/spin/etc... of the level i strive to get to... i get to even ask questions (every above-level-oponent (aka sandbagger)i've talked to has given me tips on my game when asked)... so in a sense, it's like a free lesson (minus the concussion or torn joints)
when i play a 3.5 that is claiming to be a 4.5 (most egregious was a 3.0 claiming to be a 5.0), it's a waste of my time, and money... i get zero in return... just so s/he can "do research"... go pay for a lesson to do your research, or enter an open tournament where it's expected the levels to be all over the place... but don't do it in usta league unless your intent is to be a selfish pr*ck.
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silentkman
Hall of Fame
Please don't make the assumption that people play tennis to avoid physical contact just because you have a martial arts background. Stop with the tennis elbow stuff too. We all know martial arts is brutal.
I've played a long time and I've never had anyone inflate their rating by a full point. Is this something in your part of the world? sheesh
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Why such a harsh reaction, he's right, there are quite a lot of ex (insert sport with more contact or any) players who gravitate to tennis bc of aging out or injuries caused by those sports. It's a fairly common occurrence.
People advertising for hitting partners often overestimate or advertise falsely their level, through ignorance or ego.
cks
Hall of Fame
+1, but I would lean on ignorance more than ego.
Or they advertise they are in a double band, such as "I'm a 3.0-3.5 on a good day" or "I'm a rusty 3.5-4.0"
silentkman
Hall of Fame
I still say NO regarding graviating to Tennis from any contact sport. It's not just because Tennis is less physical than any contact sport. 100% of the hitting partners i've seen on the UTR are college players that have a UTR rating.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Somehow trying to understand this hurts my head.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I have to say that this is one of the things I love about tennis. If I get beat badly ok but at least it won't be physically painful. I agree with you that when people who are much stronger want to play me I tend to see it as an upside for me. I was playing in a singles league that had many players out of my league, and I told the guy I don't mind getting free lessons but it is perfectly ok if you don't match me up with the stronger players. I don't want to be a drag for others.
What I don't understand is when tennis players don't want to play in groups with stronger players. Because I have noticed that as well. I like to play with the strongest players that will allow me on the court. VOV
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
To be fair I don't think he is a native English speaker. So his English is much better then I can speak his native language.
dannyslicer
Professional
Except that the 3.0 gives the trophy chasing sandbagger a free win, LOL
Win/win
of course not everyone plays tennis to avoid physical contact... i'm been crushed by many multi sport athletes... just saying the majority of folks i run into in the rec world tend to be of the type to avoid physical conflict.
no idea if it's a location thing, but i definitely have run into quite a number of rating inflaters... i used to be one, so i'll chalk it up to folks just not knowing what it's like to playing the different levels. also basing my experience over decades (so pre internet, where it's easy to research the different levels)
maybe in nyc tri area, alot more "fake it til you make it" types
so which contact sport do you play?
(rugby, american football, combat, basketball (and also plays "inside" vs. the 3pt shooter camping in the corner away from rebounds), hard ball baseball, etc...)
as a guy whose recovery time is longer than it used to be, i can't do both
dannyslicer
Professional
This seems hilarious story potential
Can you tell us more about these incidents?
Was this just gross ignorance?
Was there any aspect to their game that warranted the delusion?
Killer forehand, etc
How can a 3.0 ever think 5.0?
3.0 has never even hit with 5.0
that one was memorable...
was on a forum or app <don't recall>, responding to add that happened to be near me "5.0 looking..."
i replied something along the lines of "i'm only a 4.5, but i promise i will hustle to at least give you some kind of workout... we can work on whatever you want, blah blah blah..."
we arrive at the courts near me.
i'm excited, eager to hit with a "5.0" (which at the time, to me, was an "elite-rec-player" a tennis angel fallen from the heavens, who's probably forgotten more about tennis since their heyday (college, futures?, and beyond...?), than i have ever known)
we shake hands, he's stoic, and in "typical hustler attire"... cotton tee, 1 racquet with cover...
my spidey senses tingle... "a cover?" i dismiss it, "probably uses gut, needs to protect from dampness, or whatever... gut is expensive to accidently nick". i didn't see the racquet type, cuz didn't want to gawk like a starstruck 5.0 fan boy, and ask all kinds of ttw-racquets-section questions...
about 30s into mini tennis, it was clear he was a noob (fh grip for fh & bh, amongst other tells, like "nipples to net" takeback)
"warmup" was going nowhere, as he couldn't find the court 2x in a row (don't think he's ever played against topspin).
he did try to crush his fh every chance he got. at least when he did miss the net, i was able to practice volleys and swinging volleys at the baseline.
i proffered to play a set. he eagerly accepted.
i took guilty pleasure in body-kicking serves, which he swatted at like a round yellowjacket intent on stinging him.
15m later, including a quick bh grip lesson, we parted ways..
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Most cases when someone overrates their level by multiple ntrp bands, it’s just ignorance.
People hear about what a 5.0 or a 4.5 is, maybe they read it’s ‘an intermediate to advanced’ player, and think ‘oh yeah’ that sounds like me.
But the player has never played a league match and has no idea what these ratings mean.
Other times, it might be people from countries outside the US. Then they really have no idea, and often overrate their skill level relative to what they would be rated in usta because they don’t have a frame of reference.
People hear about what a 5.0 or a 4.5 is, maybe they read it’s ‘an intermediate to advanced’ player, and think ‘oh yeah’ that sounds like me.
But the player has never played a league match and has no idea what these ratings mean.
Other times, it might be people from countries outside the US. Then they really have no idea, and often overrate their skill level relative to what they would be rated in usta because they don’t have a frame of reference.
dannyslicer
Professional
LMAO, great post.
I have a racket cover. No idea how I even got it. Didn't realize it meant something!
15 minutes only? Did you terminate?
What was his reaction to the premature ending?
I was a little nervous playing against 2 Self rated players who were smacking the ball.
After one of them hit a running BH passing shot between us, my partner said something along the lines that these guys seem to better than your usual 3.5s,
but then I felt confident when he said, "So am I."
maxplough
Rookie
The desire to sandbag is just a wholly inscrutable psychology to me.
I play in a league (outside of the US) with an A, B, C, D, E system. And no one here wants to be demoted (thanks to injury etc.) and have to work their way up again, even if they win the lower sub-league trophy in doing so. But presumably this would be a sandbagger's dream.
I play in a league (outside of the US) with an A, B, C, D, E system. And no one here wants to be demoted (thanks to injury etc.) and have to work their way up again, even if they win the lower sub-league trophy in doing so. But presumably this would be a sandbagger's dream.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
That might be true for younger women. The tennis clib crowd or country club women want to stay with their team at a winnable level and beat the evil breeches at the club on the north side that thinks they are better! They also, I have to admit, have more fun at sectionals than men's teams and sometimes it's a little too much fun ahhaha. So they don't want to be bumped and miss those trips.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Usta problem I suppose, if you can domi ate your division you get to travle with teammates , people enjoy that too much.
Yeah, it's always the north side beaches...
I will also note that I haven't seen any sandbagging in tennis club ladders.
Ppl want to play/stay at the highest court. I have seen semi-serious accusations that players may tank matches to get revenge on a disliked partner, but even that is said more as a joke.
ponzicrash
New User
The only egregious example on the local level I've seen was a tournament player who won something like 7 or 8 3.5 tournaments without dropping a set. Got moved to 4.0 and then 4.5 the next year. If I'm registering for a tournament or league I try to play wherever I think will be most competitive if possible. Perplexing to me the psychology of a person who would register for 3.5 tournaments after winning 4, 5, or 6 tournaments in the previous months.
