Why do people use 93 instead of 100 ?

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
How does a small head help control ?
Directional or distance?
I don't see how it affects direction.
You hit it somewhere on the strings.
It should not matter if the area outside of that contact point is 5 inches or 500.
This is about as dumb as asking why the sky is blue for proof that it is blue.

"The sky is blue"
"Are you sure? Why is it blue?"
"Buddy, have you looked out the window?"
"wHy ThOuGh?.!ß"

While it may be interesting to ask why smaller heads and denser stringbeds have more control, the starting point is that they do.

Don't be a skeptic for the sake of it (or trolling)
 

Crocodile

Hall of Fame
It's about the feel. 93 and 95 heads have a great sense of precision and it's a pleasure to test your skill using one. 96 to 98 is pretty good too. There is nothing wrong with 100 heads or even a 105, 107 and up to 110. It's what you get used to. Currently I'm quite happy using are 98 and see no need to change.
 

dsb

Rookie
Still don't understand the string deflection assumptions. Let's use a literal trampoline example. Drop a bowling ball into it from 100 feet above. Massive deflection. But, The ball should bounce exactly the same distance every time. Now tighten the trampoline. Now less bounce, but predictable less bounce every time. Both are equally controlled. Deflection has nothing to do with control since the result is identical every time. Predictable means control since the swing will adapt to the amount of deflection.
If you dropped said bowling ball in the exact center, the ball would bounce straight up. But, if you missed the center the ball would bounce at an angle, and the direction of the angle would change depending on which direction you missed the center. In the case of a tennis racquet, the more string bed deflection, the greater this 'off angle' is (this is physics, not my opinion). Now, assuming that you cannot create the situation where you strike the ball x millimeters from the center in a specific direction, you cannot possibly compensate beforehand to take advantage of the altered trajectory of the struck ball. It's just a mishit. The more string bed delection, and the greater distance the impact is from the center, the worse result from the mishit.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
How does a small head help control ?
Directional or distance?
I don't see how it affects direction.
You hit it somewhere on the strings.
It should not matter if the area outside of that contact point is 5 inches or 500.
It does. The reaction to the ball is a standing wave pattern on the strings with the frame as the boundary condition. A larger area produces more trampoline effect (more amplitude of vibration) in some parts and this can lead to effects like different launch angle and lack of precision in directionality.
 
If you dropped said bowling ball in the exact center, the ball would bounce straight up. But, if you missed the center the ball would bounce at an angle, and the direction of the angle would change depending on which direction you missed the center. In the case of a tennis racquet, the more string bed deflection, the greater this 'off angle' is (this is physics, not my opinion). Now, assuming that you cannot create the situation where you strike the ball x millimeters from the center in a specific direction, you cannot possibly compensate beforehand to take advantage of the altered trajectory of the struck ball. It's just a mishit. The more string bed delection, and the greater distance the impact is from the center, the worse result from the mishit.
Thanks for the example about off center hits.

If off center, the return angle changes.
The more deflection, the more the angle magnifies the placement.
But that is a distance effect, right?
Bigger deflection means greater distance deviation.

So i think I see why this means less control.
People should qualify this with less control of off center hits
 
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TennisHound

Legend
Great explanation about off center hits.
I think this now makes sense.
Also because of the racquet’s power points and extra stability fibers (depending on where the pro stock room placed them when they made the frame) also aid in evening out power and stability on pro stocks.
 

shamaho

Semi-Pro
Who does 93 have more control than 130 ?
You are still using the same 2 inches of string where the ball contacts.
In theory, the racket could be a mile wide. You're still only using that 1% of the strings.
So, why does extra unused string surface matter?
Look I see your point, and I won't give you any science behind that because I don't know it...
What I do know is having played with 93, and 100 and 107 - I know it feels and behaves, at least for me.
There's no point in getting answer to your question into a provable equation, that equation means nothing on-court to produce the win ;-)

I would say though that is consensual that generally and all other things being equal - larger heads have more Power, if you have more power then inherently you have less control both directionally and depthwise...
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Still don't understand the string deflection assumptions. Let's use a literal trampoline example. Drop a bowling ball into it from 100 feet above. Massive deflection. But, The ball should bounce exactly the same distance every time. Now tighten the trampoline. Now less bounce, but predictable less bounce every time. Both are equally controlled. Deflection has nothing to do with control since the result is identical every time. Predictable means control since the swing will adapt to the amount of deflection.
The trouble with the trampoline analogy is that it only addresses the "rebound energy" when the ball hits the string bed (or trampoline) with an orientation that is perpendicular to the flight path of the ball. This can explain how a larger string bed or larger trampoline might have more liveliness, power, rebound energy, etc. compared with a smaller one. But there's usually more going on when we hit a tennis ball than when a bowling ball is dropped straight down onto the center of a level trampoline.

When we swing a racquet at a ball, we often don't swing straight through the flight path of the ball with a "flat" racquet face. To make spin, we hit the ball with the combo of an angled racquet face and a swing path that runs in a different direction than the flight of the incoming ball - let's say when we swing "low-to-high" to generate topspin on a forehand.

This is the situation where angular string bed deflection makes the intended shot less predictable the more the string bed deflects (bends, moves, stretches, etc.) So a smaller string bed or a smaller trampoline should likely have a more consistent rebound angle if the incoming ball hits it at an angle instead of making perpendicular contact. Sorry if my lingo offends any physics heavies, trigonometry was where I started getting lost.

So what's the trade-off? When we "tilt" the face of a larger racquet as when we try to hit with spin, there's still a significant amount of cross section of the string bed exposed to the ball. Not so much the case when a smaller racquet face is tilted - its string bed has a much smaller cross section and mis-hits become easier the more we swing "across the ball" to generate spin with that smaller racquet face.

Other things contribute to mis-hits, too. If the beam width of the hoop of a racquet is especially wide, that can be trouble. I had a Yonex RQiS 1 Tour, which was a 95" frame, but its hoop had a beam width of maybe 24-25mm and I'd shank the ball a lot more with that racquet compared with my 90"-92" mids. Some old-school frames have really narrow beams, so the edges of the hoop don't protrude so much when we swing those at an angle.

More on this story as it develops...
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
Massive deflection. But, The ball should bounce exactly the same distance every time. Now tighten the trampoline. Now less bounce, but predictable less bounce every time.
No because there is enough variability in the elasticity of the strings that a) the amount of deflection will vary each time and b) the energy put back into the ball will vary each time, leading to different control.

Again going back to the "iron byron" testing in golf where a robot swings the club the exact same way every time and hits the sweet spot every time. The balls do not land in the same spot and have a variability due to the nature of the materials in the club face. A thinner face club will accentuate the variance.

Clearly you need to go back and study variance in scientific measurements. Two measurement are rarely the same in most testing situations as all test conditions suffer from varying degrees of variance.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
People should qualify this with less control of off center hits
Almost every hit is off-center in the real world. Ever watch slow motion videos of the top pros? You can see their racquets wobbling at impact on almost every one because the contact is just a bit above or below the center line of the racquet. If that’s happening to them, you can be sure its happening worse to us scrubs.
 

ONgame

Semi-Pro
I like the racquet I have and it happens to be a 95. I like its feel. Not its power or control or whatever, just the feel.
TC95 16x19 70RA
 

BAAllen

New User
I've recently moved to the 93p full-time. I've found for me I hit a cleaner ball with the smaller head. With a 100 sq in. frame I noticed that on volleys and dig shots the larger frame often got in the way and caused me to hit the ball "less cleanly", meaning I often didn't hit the ball in the center of the string bed. With the smaller head I feel that I don't have the same issue. Don't get me wrong I still frame balls, but I feel that the balls I do hit are better struck. Who knows, it could all be a placebo. However, I do like the way the smaller head swings.
 

Christian Olsson

Professional
Personal preference. I use a 98 sq inch 16/19 Volkl and when I went from my 95 sq inch 18/20 radical tour I lost some feel as to where I hit in the sweetspot that was waaaay bigger than the 95. As of now I would struggle a bit going back to that head racquet but the prestige pro 95 16/19 would work just fine. Try out lots of sizes and string patterns, open your mind and don’t do what you’re told to by others.


If I could pick, I would want the exact same racquet as I’ve got but maaaaybe as a 96 sq inch. Another thing is that I like thinner beams for some reason. I like feedback from my racquets.


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Dartagnan64

Legend
They think there's extra cool points, on these boards, for users of Mid size frames.
Also, they are legends in their own minds.

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Maybe for those using Vintage PS85's. I think those using the more modern 93's just kind of gravitate to that specific feel. I don't think too many are lording this over other players using Pure Drives and Pure Aeros. I do tend to snigger at the PD/PA group wearing elbow braces, but I don't denigrate them for it.
 

BAAllen

New User
They think there's extra cool points, on these boards, for users of Mid size frames.
Also, they are legends in their own minds.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
I've tried so many frames trying to find the perfect match - Mids, 100s, extended, stiff, soft, open patterns, closed patterns, light, heavy. All I know is that I am a hack at best and the 93-95 inch head with a fairly open pattern feels the best to me. It doesn't change my game, I'm still terrible, but at least the racquet feels right in my hand as I miss.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
...I would say though that is consensual that generally and all other things being equal - larger heads have more Power, if you have more power then inherently you have less control both directionally and depthwise...
You can make this statement but you had better show the proof and results from lab research to back it up! ;)

Please remember that this is the same person who accused professional stringers of lying when they posted they string racquets in under 20 mins simply because he himself was not able to string a racquet in under 2 hours. Therefore he concluded that anyone who claimed to be able to string a racquet in under 2 hours was a liar. :-D
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
I've tried so many frames trying to find the perfect match - Mids, 100s, extended, stiff, soft, open patterns, closed patterns, light, heavy. All I know is that I am a hack at best and the 93-95 inch head with a fairly open pattern feels the best to me. It doesn't change my game, I'm still terrible, but at least the racquet feels right in my hand as I miss.
I'm terrible too but the odd time i do hit a purely struck FH it feels so much better with a mid. Just like a purely struck 5 iron with a muscle back blade. Those are the shots that keep you coming back. I find the vagueness of Tweener and OS's disconnects me from the ball and I don't get those wow moments.
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
As someone stated, its machismo.

When I strut onto the tennis court and pull out my P93,its instant stares from the ladies. I used to pull out a sissy-100 tweener and get laughed at, but now I just get showered with phone numbers from star stuck cougars.

This is clearly a rough and tumble manly game, and the only way too play it is with a man’s frame - that means midsize or less or go home.

It’s pretty much common knowledge that Fed never actually switched to a 97 and it’s simply a PJ crafted by Peter Fig to give the illusion that he did. This allows any common wuss to think he is playing with “Fed’s racquet”.

If anything, Federer sized down. But Ron Yu and the Tennis Elite will never tell you that because it’s a super secret that only the manliest of men (Breakpoint) will know.
 

haqq777

Legend
When I strut onto the tennis court and pull out my P93, its instant stares from the ladies. I used to pull out a sissy-100 tweener and get laughed at, but now I just get showered with phone numbers from star stuck cougars.

This is clearly a rough and tumble manly game, and the only way too play it is with a man’s frame - that means midsize or less or go home.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
I like the racquet I have and it happens to be a 95. I like its feel. Not its power or control or whatever, just the feel.
TC95 16x19 70RA
But I'd say that feel is probably a lot more important for each of us than we often think it is. The physics don't matter much when we can't tell the difference between the feel of hitting the ball right or hitting it wrong. For each of us, that "right" feel is a little different and I think we all establish our personal normal early on.

I was learning with wood frames as a kid and then switched into 85" graphite racquets in the middle of high school. Although I like a couple of 98" models that I keep in my bag now, these also have a bit of old-school personality in terms of their combo of extra weight and moderate flex that is probably more normal or familiar for me compared with the feel I get from a stiff alternative weighing no more than 11.5 oz.

While I respect that a lot of younger players enjoy their Babolats strung with maybe a poly hybrid - their personal normal - I've sampled them here and there and just can't relate.
 

Addxyz

Semi-Pro
This is clearly a rough and tumble manly game, and the only way too play it is with a man’s frame - that means midsize or less or go home.
The size of your racquet head is inversely proportional to the size of your wang. #truth



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flanker2000fr

Professional
As someone stated, its machismo.

When I strut onto the tennis court and pull out my P93,its instant stares from the ladies. I used to pull out a sissy-100 tweener and get laughed at, but now I just get showered with phone numbers from star stuck cougars.

This is clearly a rough and tumble manly game, and the only way too play it is with a man’s frame - that means midsize or less or go home.

It’s pretty much common knowledge that Fed never actually switched to a 97 and it’s simply a PJ crafted by Peter Fig to give the illusion that he did. This allows any common wuss to think he is playing with “Fed’s racquet”.

If anything, Federer sized down. But Ron Yu and the Tennis Elite will never tell you that because it’s a super secret that only the manliest of men (Breakpoint) will know.
I was wondering why the ladies at the club were throwing their nickers at me last year, but now I know: I too was playing with the Prince 93P. Had three of them, for good measure.

Sadly, I only get disdainful stares from them these days, having moved to the girly stick that is the PP100P.
 

dnguyen

Hall of Fame
It's called skills.

oversized one is for noobs, right because they like to hit the ball and more spin. That's why.
 

mikeeeee

Professional
The largest frame I own is the DR98. 100" head size just feels wacky to me and you gain a lot of free power which isn't a good thing for my game.

I used the Graphene Rev Pro all of last year and just recently decided to move (my arm thanks me) to the Youtek IG Prestige Mid (both 93"). They just feel better to me. I'll try using larger head sizes like the Vcore Tour 97 or previously mentioned DR98 but the 93's are just super control oriented and The ball goes where you want at the pace you want.

Also, I'm not even that good of a player (3.5 on my best days). Never played in high school, college or competitively at all but I still made my way to a small head size.
 

BlueB

Legend
I used the Graphene Rev Pro all of last year and just recently decided to move (my arm thanks me) to the Youtek IG Prestige Mid (both 93").
The real size of the Prestige Mid molds before the Graphene was about 89 sqin.

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haqq777

Legend
idk what that has to do with anything but thanks for the info!
In your post above, you said "both 93" in parenthesis for the Graphene Rev Pro and Youtek IG Mid. I think @BlueB was simply clarifying that Youtek IG Mid in reality was actually 89 and not 93. I understand the point you were making though.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Still don't understand the string deflection assumptions. Let's use a literal trampoline example. Drop a bowling ball into it from 100 feet above. Massive deflection. But, The ball should bounce exactly the same distance every time. Now tighten the trampoline. Now less bounce, but predictable less bounce every time. Both are equally controlled. Deflection has nothing to do with control since the result is identical every time. Predictable means control since the swing will adapt to the amount of deflection.
Its the less bounce. Remember you have to get the ball IN. If the bounce is too much the ball goes out. In the analogy of the trampoline imagine that there was a ceiling and if the ball bounce too high it would hit the ceiling? Which trampoline are you going to pick to not hit the ceiling?

this explains it
 

wangs78

Hall of Fame
Smaller head size usually means greater precision so if you’re a player who likes to go for winners you will feel much more confident your shot will land where you want it to vs a larger head size.
 

Addxyz

Semi-Pro
Its the less bounce. Remember you have to get the ball IN. If the bounce is too much the ball goes out. In the analogy of the trampoline imagine that there was a ceiling and if the ball bounce too high it would hit the ceiling? Which trampoline are you going to pick to not hit the ceiling?

this explains it
Lol.. everything I said but without numbers.
 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
When I place my F93 VCT over my Vcore Tour 97 red. They are identical in the top three quarters. The only difference is in the throat area. I don't hit the ball there, it gets stuck in the throat. The F93 is more accurate and volleys better.
 
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