Why do return of a HUGE 1st serve just dribble off my racket?

TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
They say when you hit a ball that is going fast, you use the balls speed, and don't need to generate your own speed. (I never understood how all that energy just reverses, instead of bouncing back even slower, but whatever)

When I tried to just block a massive first serve (or slice it), often, the ball would just flatly "fall off" my racket, or just dribble off not even reaching the net. Where is all this supposed power from the initial ball going? It seems I need to generate my own power for huge fast 1st serves, even more than dink 2nd serves. I never return a dink 2nd serve to just dribble off my racket, and not reach the net.
 
it's just basic physics. conservation of energy. if you bounce a tennis ball on the ground, the harder you throw it to the ground the higher it will bounce. so it is similar except that tennis strings will absorb even less energy than the ground and it will bounce even farther. as for your return of serve on fast serves you should be able to just block it and get it back over the net easily except for few things. if the ball does not in the sweat spot of the strings or even worse hits the frame, then the racquet twisting absorbs most of the energy. if you are not holding the racquet tight enough, then the racquet movement (moving backwards) absorbs most of the energy. if the balls are too flat (old balls).. if it is too cold, etc..

Sent from my LG-H950 using Tapatalk
 
Racquet take back is abbreviated. Think of the return as a half volley and concentrate on movement and clean contact with the ball. If the ball dribbles off the frame, your contact is not anywhere near the sweet spot. There is another possabilty; the serve is not really that huge. A huge 1st serve is > 100 mph. Anything else is relatively easy. 2 cents.
 
If you are blocking serve returns, you are basically hitting a volley. If you block with a weak wrist (so racquet head is bent back from the serve), the energy from the serve gets absorbed. Normally, you don't see people just block and, instead, they firm the wrist and add a little volley bunch to that return. I like to feel like I am turning a door knob.
 
Yes, it might be that I am doing a drop shot type of volley with a weak wrist or floppy grip.
This might be fine for groundstrokes, but I will try to be more rigid on ROS. Tight grip, stiff wrist and will report back.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
They say when you hit a ball that is going fast, you use the balls speed, and don't need to generate your own speed. (I never understood how all that energy just reverses, instead of bouncing back even slower, but whatever)

When I tried to just block a massive first serve (or slice it), often, the ball would just flatly "fall off" my racket, or just dribble off not even reaching the net. Where is all this supposed power from the initial ball going? It seems I need to generate my own power for huge fast 1st serves, even more than dink 2nd serves. I never return a dink 2nd serve to just dribble off my racket, and not reach the net.
Click to expand...
You're not swinging hard enough. Swing harder.
 
It could be your hitting structure is not stable at the point of contact (e.g. hitting the ball late, too much arm swing causing timing issues, etc.), and/or not getting your weight behind the ball (try to at least lean into the shot). Those issues can cause the racquet to rebound a little at contact, causing the lack of pace. So try to have a really short arm motion, and try to lean into your return. If you have more time you can step in.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Yes, it might be that I am doing a drop shot type of volley with a weak wrist or floppy grip.
This might be fine for groundstrokes, but I will try to be more rigid on ROS. Tight grip, stiff wrist and will report back.
Click to expand...

That works if you find your racquet being pushed back because of the heaviness of the incoming serve. It also works if all you're doing is putting the racquet to the ball with zero swing, followthrough, or weight transfer. Because then with a loose wrist all you're doing is creating a stationary obstacle for the ball with an elastic buffer (your wrist), causing the ball to lose all pace.

However, if you are doing any or all of those three things I just listed, then assuming your racquet isn't featherlight, you don't need to stiffen your wrist so long as your wrist is straight at contact. This means making sure your contact point is well in front of you.

So if you want to take a swing at it, then a short takeback (let's say max 45 degree shoulder turn from open stance) and a step forward with your opposite foot--same as a forehand volley--will produce the shot that you are looking for.
 
What are we defining as huge? When I started tennis, I thought my dad's serve was huge (felt like it nearly broke my wrist). A year or two later, I was teeing off on them.

movdqa said:
Mass of the racquet might be a factor.
Click to expand...

Given that you also have your body and the ground to work with (/push off of), a few grams doesn't mean much more than comfort (which in some cases, is very important).

The more you dink a ball softly, the more swingweight is required from the racket. The more you get your body behind the ball, the less swingweight is required from the racket (unless you want the impact to feel less rough).

There are 2 ways to go about dealing with fast serves:
1) hit 2 inches through the ball, or
2) have the racket out in front with a firm grip and lean into it as it bounces off the strings.

The first one is basically the idea of swinging at the ball without actually swinging (if you only need to get 2 inches of drive, your swing probably only needs to be 6 inches in length). As you get better, the idea even extends to full reaches where you can't get your weight behind the ball because if you can slap at the ball and put strings on it, you have a decent chance at getting it over the net. It might not land deep (it'll probably be very short and high), but at least you'll make them play another shot to beat you, and some people will miss (and if they don't hustle for it, they won't hit a good one which means you're in an all-in shootout based on whether you beat them with your next shot or not). Obviously, the amount you go through the ball is ideally higher, but the idea is you just hit through the ball as cleanly as you can with as little of a backswing as possible. It's more so going through the ball rather than swinging at it.

The second idea is the basis of redirecting power except the part about the firm wrist. This is just the result of the fact that the levels of pace, spin, and rebound angles are potentially much higher than those you'll see from even the hardest hit groundstrokes, so hitting off center would be far more punishing.
 
Your racket may be too light, underpowered and/or unstable. Other than that, you may be making contact too far off centre.
 
xFullCourtTenniSx said:
What are we defining as huge? When I started tennis, I thought my dad's serve was huge (felt like it nearly broke my wrist). A year or two later, I was teeing off on them.



Given that you also have your body and the ground to work with (/push off of), a few grams doesn't mean much more than comfort (which in some cases, is very important).

The more you dink a ball softly, the more swingweight is required from the racket. The more you get your body behind the ball, the less swingweight is required from the racket (unless you want the impact to feel less rough).

There are 2 ways to go about dealing with fast serves:
1) hit 2 inches through the ball, or
2) have the racket out in front with a firm grip and lean into it as it bounces off the strings.

The first one is basically the idea of swinging at the ball without actually swinging (if you only need to get 2 inches of drive, your swing probably only needs to be 6 inches in length). As you get better, the idea even extends to full reaches where you can't get your weight behind the ball because if you can slap at the ball and put strings on it, you have a decent chance at getting it over the net. It might not land deep (it'll probably be very short and high), but at least you'll make them play another shot to beat you, and some people will miss (and if they don't hustle for it, they won't hit a good one which means you're in an all-in shootout based on whether you beat them with your next shot or not). Obviously, the amount you go through the ball is ideally higher, but the idea is you just hit through the ball as cleanly as you can with as little of a backswing as possible. It's more so going through the ball rather than swinging at it.

The second idea is the basis of redirecting power except the part about the firm wrist. This is just the result of the fact that the levels of pace, spin, and rebound angles are potentially much higher than those you'll see from even the hardest hit groundstrokes, so hitting off center would be far more punishing.
Click to expand...

How about a few ounces?
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
They say when you hit a ball that is going fast, you use the balls speed, and don't need to generate your own speed. (I never understood how all that energy just reverses, instead of bouncing back even slower, but whatever)

When I tried to just block a massive first serve (or slice it), often, the ball would just flatly "fall off" my racket, or just dribble off not even reaching the net. Where is all this supposed power from the initial ball going? It seems I need to generate my own power for huge fast 1st serves, even more than dink 2nd serves. I never return a dink 2nd serve to just dribble off my racket, and not reach the net.
Click to expand...
It sounds like you're not meeting the ball in the center of your racket. The less you meet the sweet spot, the less power you'll have on the ball.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Yes, off center, but those are obvious.
I think even sweet spot ones were barely reaching the net,
maybe due to issues noted above.
Click to expand...

My bet is that you don't have your body weight going forward. Even if you're blocking a return, your body weight should be moving slightly forward in order to redirect the ball solidly. That includes when you are stretching for the ball. You should be slightly closer to the net when you finish the shot than you were when you started.

If you are falling back away from the net even a little, then you won't be able to redirect the ball as effectively.
 
You don't have to go on a kamikaze run forward or anything. You just have to move your body weight slightly forward. For example, if your toes are just touching the baseline when the serve is hit, then your heels should be just in front of the baseline when you finish hitting your return. Even that small amount of movement makes a huge difference.

The speed of the serve should only affect your decision on whether or not to take a swing at the ball. No matter how fast or slow the serve is, you should always move forward through the return.

Leaning/falling/stepping back just causes all sorts of problems.
 
You often see a pro stretching for a RoS, even moving backwards where they will return the ball very high in the air, sometimes near the baseline and sometimes over the baseline. So they don't have a lot of forward momentum (maybe none). But they still manage to get the ball back deep.
 
When the pros hit those fully-stretched returns, they use a lot of wrist action to compensate for their body weight moving backward. When they're not stretched, they move slightly forward through the shot without a lot of wrist action.

The OP is talking about basic blocked returns, which is why I'm willing to bet that he's not moving forward through the shot. If that's the case, then fixing that would be my top priority if I were him.

Here's a video of Stan hitting a DTL winner with a blocked backhand return. Notice where his feet are when he split steps and where his right foot goes as he's hitting the ball.

 
I chip back big serves, so they go really high and land near the baseline. My wrist is firm, little or no swing, focus is on the angle so the effect is a deep rather than a shallow lob. It's my most effective return when I'm in "just get it back" mode.
 
MathGeek said:
I chip back big serves, so they go really high and land near the baseline. My wrist is firm, little or no swing, focus is on the angle so the effect is a deep rather than a shallow lob. It's my most effective return when I'm in "just get it back" mode.
Click to expand...

Federer does that too so you're in good company.
 
movdqa said:
How about a few ounces?
Click to expand...

Nope. Like I said, you don't need it unless you want cheap arm insurance. If you firm up the wrists and get your body behind the shot, you don't really need a heavier racket. But having a racket with a higher swingweight (and twistweight if you hit off center a lot) makes it easier to work with less (if you swing it). If you're blocking the ball, the specs don't matter that much beyond comfort. If you're swinging, swingweight gives you more bang for your buck. But we're talking about block returns, so swingweight won't matter except for comfort.
 
movdqa said:
Mass of the racquet might be a factor.

When you throw a ball on the ground, the ground usually has a lot of mass.
Click to expand...
i'm sure you could return a big serve even with a kid's racquet (presuming you make contact in the sweet spot) :P
 
xFullCourtTenniSx said:
Nope. Like I said, you don't need it unless you want cheap arm insurance. If you firm up the wrists and get your body behind the shot, you don't really need a heavier racket. But having a racket with a higher swingweight (and twistweight if you hit off center a lot) makes it easier to work with less (if you swing it). If you're blocking the ball, the specs don't matter that much beyond comfort. If you're swinging, swingweight gives you more bang for your buck. But we're talking about block returns, so swingweight won't matter except for comfort.
Click to expand...

Mass, even aside from swingweight matters.

That's my experience with 17 ounce, low swingweight racquets.

I don't have a problem with RoS, comfort or dribbling.
 
Swingweight is power even if you don't swing the racket.
 
spaceman_spiff said:
When the pros hit those fully-stretched returns, they use a lot of wrist action to compensate for their body weight moving backward. When they're not stretched, they move slightly forward through the shot without a lot of wrist action.

The OP is talking about basic blocked returns, which is why I'm willing to bet that he's not moving forward through the shot. If that's the case, then fixing that would be my top priority if I were him.

Here's a video of Stan hitting a DTL winner with a blocked backhand return. Notice where his feet are when he split steps and where his right foot goes as he's hitting the ball.

Click to expand...
even if i stand still and make solid contact, i can get the ball to go over the net (albeit short)....
a dribbler-that-doesn't-even-reach-the-net sounds like he's:
* not making solid contact AND/OR
* holding grip to loose (racquet is floppy and absorbing the pace)
my $0.02
 
nytennisaddict said:
even if i stand still and make solid contact, i can get the ball to go over the net (albeit short)....
a dribbler-that-doesn't-even-reach-the-net sounds like he's:
* not making solid contact AND/OR
* holding grip to loose (racquet is floppy and absorbing the pace)
my $0.02
Click to expand...

Yes, but in addition to the extra forward momentum helping with the physics, moving forward through contact also makes him more likely to grip tighter and make sure to make solid contact. It's just a psychological effect of moving toward a target as opposed to standing still or falling away from it.

If I were his coach, I'd fix the fundamental things first, especially since focusing on one of the fundamental things he's currently not doing could lead him to fix one or two other issues without any additional conscious thought.
 
movdqa said:
Mass of the racquet might be a factor.

When you throw a ball on the ground, the ground usually has a lot of mass.
Click to expand...


Mass would matter if the racquet was floating in the air hitting balls by itself, unfortunately it still needs a person holding it and standing on the ground. As long as you can hold it firm enough the mass doesn't matter if the ball hits the sweet spot of the racquet and energy doesn't get absorb by twisting of the racquet. Stiffness/flex of the racquet is much more important than mass, unless you have a loose grip, when it comes to blocking a huge serve.
 
It sounds to me that your are leaning your body weight back at impact. Make sure that your weight is leaning forward.
 
The ball is falling off the racket because your grip or wrist is limp. You are absorbing the energy. This can be a good thing with certain volleys. If you are self taught like most recreational players than you are going to have to just wing it and see what works for you because a proper return can't be taught over the internet.But a general piece of advice that may help is not wating for the ball. Step, split and move towards the ball. Trying to cut it off. It's an aggressive mindset. That does not mean to hit the snot out of the ball. I'm not talking about how hard to hit the ball. I'm talking about going out and finding the ball before it finds you.
 
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If you want to look at how to block back big serves have a look at Stan the Man. He does this all the time. He is very balanced (wide and low stancesmd ready position and he moves forward) and I guess his frame would be monster heavy as well.
 
I tried more slice ROS today.

I realized the Conti grip is all wrong for me.

I started using my childhood grip, which might be called Eastern FH.
Knuckle on the flat side bevel. #3

With this grip, I had some more control, chop, and pace on the ball.
Not a ton, but it was better than the garbage "dinkers" I was returning with Conti (where they would lob up and/or go way wide into the curtain)
So, I am going to try some more Eastern FH for my slice returns.

The problem in doubles is that simply getting it over is not enough.
Half my slice serves were still meatballs for the opposing net man.

At 3.5, for those with a weaker 2nd serve, I am going to try to return it normally.
 
if you want to continue to improve you should stick with conti grip on slices. it may take more time bit ultimately will be better for you. if your conti slice is popping up it just means your wrist is too open during contact. as others have said close the wrist a little and lean/move forward while hitting. that is how you generate penetrating low slices.

Sent from my LG-H950 using Tapatalk
 
by open, I mean the wrist or face of the racquet is facing too far up. depends on how high you make contact with the ball, if the contact height is above the net, the face of the racquet on contact should be 'almost' flat facing the direction you want the ball to go. if the contact is below the net, you will want to open up a little more but too open the ball would just pop up. hope you get what I mean.

Sent from my LG-H950 using Tapatalk
 
the reason why I think that your wrist is too open is because by using the eastern grip with same wrist action, the face of the racquet is closed a little more. so instead of changing the grip you should be able to adjust your wrist to get the same result.

Sent from my LG-H950 using Tapatalk
 
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