Why do so many of you expect peak Fedal to still be challenging Djokovic in 2016?

[Deleted member 77403]

thanks for the cosign.

You don't have to thank me, I call things right down the middle, and there is no doubt that Nadal made more dramatic changes in his game to win on all surfaces than Djokovic. And yes we have all seen Nadal being ruthlessly aggressive on all surfaces, and that includes indoor hard, the WTF Murray 2010 match prime example of it.

 

[uscwang]

Djokovic's level of play is what is under scrutiny. Results wise Djokovic 2015 was comparable to Fed 2006 but level wise they are light years apart. Djokovic benefitted from chokes by Anderson at Wimbledon and Federer at USO. His overall level of play at the slams was hardly great. He hit 0 winners in a set vs Wawrinka at the AO last year..lol. That's the gripe people have and to be fair, even as a No1e lover it is a legitimate gripe.

Federer in 2010 had:

Peak Nadal
Prime/Peak Djokovic
Peak Del Potro
Prime Pre back surgery Murray
Etc

Djokovic has

35 year old broke back Fed who has played 10 matches (?)this year and who is losing sets to Fritz on grass
declinedal who plays about 2 matches a year
Berdych
Nishikori
Mugray

Do you know what you are talking about? In 2010, "Peak Del Potro"? It should be POOR Del Potro, who hardly played in 2010 due to wrist injury. "Prime/Peak Djokovic"? 2010 was the rock bottom of Novak's career.
BTW, what does it matter who Federer had in 2010, as long as Nadal had him?
Fed in 2006 beat Monfils, Baghdatis, Blake, Ljubicic, Berdych, Gasquet, Roddick, Henman, Gonzalez, Blake in finals, and was 2-4 against a 19/20 yo Nadal.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Well, they have only made one final each, and they are both at the bitter end. I am not one of those who try to reduce Novak´s achievements, he plays incredible tennis, but I don´t think he plays as good as he did back in 2011. So this sweep of slams has something to do with poor competition, and that has nothing to do with "hate" on my behalf. I even think Djokovic misses the sharp versions of Federer, Nadal and Murray. I think Djokovic is bored, and has been for some time. He loved Federer´s competition in 2014/15, even though it was old version, they still had som incredible matches that both of them appreciated

Hmmm, tbh I'm not so sure about him still loving Federer's competition. He's the one player out of the Big 4 who I always feel Djokovic feels most uncomfortable against. I think even now he views Fed as an irritation to him because he can't simply swat him aside as easily as he can Nadal and Murray when playing at his best due to Roger's great serve and variety. Their match in Shanghai a couple a years ago was a perfect example of this - you could clearly see Novak being driven up the wall by how well Roger was slicing and dicing him and coming up with big serves when he needed them. I honestly think Nole truly hates coming up against players like Fed that give him no rhthym.

 

[junior74]

Hmmm, tbh I'm not so sure about him still loving Federer's competition. He's the one player out of the Big 4 who I always feel Djokovic feels most uncomfortable against. I think even now he views Fed as an irritation to him because he can't simply swat him aside as easily as he can Nadal and Murray when playing at his best due to Roger's great serve and variety. Their match in Shanghai a couple a years ago was a perfect example of this - you could clearly see Novak being driven up the wall by how well Roger was slicing and dicing him and coming up with big serves when he needed them. I honestly think Nole truly hates coming up against players like Fed that give him no rhthym.

In 14/15 Federer against Djokovic was all that mattered. Now, only Djokovic matters. If you know what I mean. There´s no ongoing rivalry. I hear your sum-up, but I think there´s something inside these great champions that needs the satisfaction of tearing apart their worst opponents. I think winning as easily as Djokovic does now and Federer did back in the day, somewhat feels a little strange to them, as well. I think a real challenge is a crucial part of being on top of your game.

 

[Djokovic2015]

Djokovic won 1 major during the overlap between Federer and Nadal's prime. 1 major. .

Yes pre-peak Djokovic won 1 major during the overlap between Federer and Nadal's prime, you know the same number of majors that post-peak Federer won during the overlap between Djokovic and Murray's prime.

 

[nolefam_2024]

In 14/15 Federer against Djokovic was all that mattered. No, only Djokovic matters. If you know what I mean. There´s no ongoing rivalry. I hear your sum-up, but I think there´s something inside these great champions that needs the satisfaction of tearing apart their worst opponents. I think winning as easily as Djokovic does now and Federer did back in the day, somewhat feels a little strange to them, as well. I think a real challenge is a crucial part of being on top of your game.

I hear you. Djokovic used to go extra step when he had extreme competition in Fedal.

 

[VamosBamos987]

BS. He won Canada and the Olympic singles gold (beating a hot Djokovic in an epic semi) that season and came into the U.S Open as the betting favorite for the title ahead of Djokovic and Federer. He reached the semis or further of practically every hard court event he played. This was a peak year for Nadal on hard courts. He probably would have beaten Fed in the final and won his first U.S Open here had an exceptional Murray who doubled Nadal in clean winners that day not played such a spectacular match to beat him.

BTW Murray has atleast 1 win over Nadal in all his peak years. 2010 destroyed him in the semis in Canada. 2013 beat him in the Tokyo final while serving him a tasty bagel with cheese to end things (preventing Rafa yet again from defending a single non clay title in his whole career, yet he is better than Djokovic, NOT).

Murray also early on won the majority of meetings against Federer, even if he lost the 1 or 2 times they met in a slam early. Federer who was significantly more experienced and probably more prime at that point than Murray. Fed has completely figured out Murray out and not grandpa Feds is regularly beating Murray, this is true, but Murray was a real thorn for Federer in his early days a top 5 player.



If you were a real Nadal fan you would know better. He didnt injure himself until the 3rd set of that match, and he was already getting his butt whooped and well on his way to defeat. Furthermore he was playing very well that day, Murray was just playing better. Nadal admits all this himself.

Lmao, for those who said he was a favorite on a fast us open 2008 hard court were buffoons. He still looked like a fish out of water and he Didn't flatten out his backhand the same was he was doing at Wimbledon. It was a sitter. ( a tactical error by Toni or he couldn't consistently flatten it).

Nadal only needed to find his peak form at USO 2010, not Canada 2010(backhand was erratic, serving terribly but Murray also played very well). Tokyo 2013, Murray was in great form then. Probably would have also destroyed Robot.

Lastly, Nadal received treatment in the third set for the knee at the AO, but it was bothering him for most of the match.

 

[metsman]

2008 Nadal reached his grass and clay peak but on HC was a joke. 2010/2013 was his hard court peak.

Nadal was injured in the 2010 QF against Mugray

Nadal was at a high level on hard Olympics/Toronto 08 as well as in 09 at AO and IW. Peak level. I think 08 Hamburg-09 Rome was his overall peak. 2010 he really had 1 epic tournament on HC but was pretty bad at the other ones except WTF. 2013 was probably his sustained HC peak.

 

[nadal_winning]

I don't just expect Nadal to be challenging Dj, I expect him to BEAT him. While Dj, Federer and Murray are messing around on grass, Nadal can spend all his time hitting the hard-courts, preparing for Rio 2016. And it'll be all the more sweeter when Dj fails to get the gold medal once again. Not to mention that Dj has never even won slams on clay, grass and hard-courts all in a calendar year like Nadal has.

 

[nolefam_2024]

I don't just expect Nadal to be challenging Dj, I expect him to BEAT him. While Dj, Federer and Murray are messing around on grass, Nadal can spend all his time hitting the hard-courts, preparing for Rio 2016. And it'll be all the more sweeter when Dj fails to get the gold medal once again. Not to mention that Dj has never even won slams on clay, grass and hard-courts all in a calendar year like Nadal has.

Another FHDTL member joined, great.

 

[nadal_winning]

Another FHDTL member joined, great.

Don't know what the heck you're on about, but yes, a legendary FHDTL is something Mr "No1e" does not possess in his boring arsenal.

 

[VamosBamos987]

Nadal was at a high level on hard Olympics/Toronto 08 as well as in 09 at AO and IW. Peak level. I think 08 Hamburg-09 Rome was his overall peak. 2010 he really had 1 epic tournament on HC but was pretty bad at the other ones except WTF. 2013 was probably his sustained HC peak.

Nadal was in his best physical shape at AO 2009 olympics 2008 etc but his skill set at USO 2010 and hard court season of 2013 was peak and no doubt he was in extremely good physical shape. But 2008, 2009 he was like freaking inhuman physical form.

 

[Sartorius]

I don't just expect Nadal to be challenging Dj, I expect him to BEAT him. While Dj, Federer and Murray are messing around on grass, Nadal can spend all his time hitting the hard-courts, preparing for Rio 2016. And it'll be all the more sweeter when Dj fails to get the gold medal once again. Not to mention that Dj has never even won slams on clay, grass and hard-courts all in a calendar year like Nadal has.

@sbengte

 

[metsman]

Nadal was in his best physical shape at AO 2009 olympics 2008 etc but his skill set at USO 2010 and hard court season of 2013 was peak and no doubt he was in extremely good physical shape. But 2008, 2009 he was like freaking inhuman physical form.

I feel like after AO 09 Nadal hasn't been the same freak athlete as he once was from 05-08 in which he'd be getting back multiple sure winners a point and do it point after point. Do you agree?

Personally I also think that 06 Nadal was at his peak retrieval ability. Just wasn't as aggressive outside of Wimbledon.

 

[VamosBamos987]

I feel like after AO 09 Nadal hasn't been the same freak athlete as he once was from 05-08 in which he'd be getting back multiple sure winners a point and do it point after point. Do you agree?

Personally I also think that 06 Nadal was at his peak retrieval ability. Just wasn't as aggressive outside of Wimbledon.

Yeah I agree. I just didn't really speak of 05-07 because he still didn't have a great enough skill set to contend regularly on HC

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

I think few expected Fed to still be challenging Djokovic at this point. Actually that Fed was probably the 2nd best player last year (despite being ranked #3) is a sign of the weakness of the field to many people. Although if that is the case, what does it say for the womens field when Serena who was born a month from Federer was the dominant #1 at the exact same age (and I am a huge Serena fan).

Nadal many would reasonably expect to still be competitive with Djokovic based on the fact he is only a year older. However on the other hand his earlier decline shouldnt be too big a surprise given his playing style, but it is pretty shocking how quickly and far he has fallen.



The incredible weakness of the 89-92 players (probably the worst generation in tennis history) is why the field is so weak these few years. They were always a sucky generation, but it didnt really matter until now. In theory this is the time they would be shining, and they simply arent good enough to shine.

I do think the field will significantly improve in the next year or two when the 93-96 players have risen to the point of being real contenders, as I dont think they are as weak a generation as 89-92.

They're not weak because the Almighty suddenly decided that this generation would be weak. They're weak because they play the same game as the dominant forces in the sport but with less experience, flair and physical prowess. That's what happens when you're just the product of a certain tennis philosophy that has stabilized in the past 10 years (a factory product), instead of a player who lived through changes in the circuit and built his game to suit these changes (Federer), a player who used the most solid foundation anyone has ever had on a single surface and tried to tweak it to suit other surfaces that were simultaneously becoming more homogenized (Nadal), or a player who became the master of the playing conditions we have nowadays, that every coach nowadays is probably trying to make his students emulate (Djokovic). Big strides in tennis come when somebody goes through a creative process in their game, thereby creating a differential in relation to other players that is big enough to make them win regularly and relatively comfortably (Federer, comfortable between 2004 and 2008, anywhere except where Nadal was comfortable from 2005 to 2013; Djokovic extremely comfortable at the Australian Open, where, despite a few losses, he is miles ahead of his opponents). When players start coming out in moulds - like that generation of American tennis players that followed Chang, Courier, Agassi and Sampras - the opportunity to challenge for Slams decreases exponentially (only the one for Roddick, one of the most robotic Slam winners of all time). The fact that playing conditions, equipment and the gulf between the richest players and the bottom of the barrel currently favor the older, more experienced players, doesn't help either.

 

[metsman]

Yeah I agree. I just didn't really speak of 05-07 because he still didn't have a great enough skill set to contend regularly on HC

07 IW though...my goodness that was one of his best ever events on HC. And I thought he was pretty decent on HC's in 05. 06 he wasn't great(although pretty good at TMC) but 07 he was really good in IW and after Wimbledon was dealing with injuries.

 

[Mainad]

I agree - Federer especially. Murray hasn't really impressed me tbh but he's still a solid opponent at least most of the time.

Out of interest, why Federer especially?

 

[Mainad]

Seriously, I've lost count of the amount of times I hear "Djokovic is only winning so much because of Fedal's decline" but the question that always comes straight to my mind is "why do they expect peak Fedal to still be around anyway?'. Tbh I can understand more why some people believe Nadal should still be playing at a reasonably high level given he's only a year younger than Djokovic but Federer?! Think about it - the guy first became number 1 at the beginning of 2004 and was part of a different generation to Djokovic so it's wholly unrealistic to expect him to still be challenging the world's best player all these years later. He was bound to experience a natural decline so why on earth do some of you make out Novak should be grateful for it when it was to going to happen anyway?

What gets me is how you never hear anyone say "oh Graf only won so much due to Navratilova's decline" or "Lendl only won so much due to Connors' decline". Most reasonable people just attribute it to one player hitting their stride and the other slowing down as is only natural in any sport but for some reason Fedal fans still expect them to be playing in 2016 like they were a decade earlier which just seems crazy to me. For those of you that don't expect this but still believe Djokovic should be grateful for their decline I could just as easily say Federer wouldn't have won as many Wimbledons with peak Sampras playing at the same time or Nadal not winning as many French Opens with peak Borg standing in his way. We could do this with most players throughout history but it really seems futile and serves no purpose.

The other thing to take into account is that Djokovic already beat both of them when they were playing closer to their peaks so it's not like he hasn't proven he can defeat such strong competition(see 2011 for evidence). So what if he has a slightly easier path to winning majors than he had before - most ATG's have one at some stage and Novak is no different.
I don't know, I just get the overwhelming impression from many of the posters on here(aka Nole haters) recently that unless he's defeating the prime versions of them, his Slams are somehow not worthy but this is just ridiculous. Time waits for no man, other players come along and just because they're not as great as Federer and Nadal(who is?) does not mean Novak shouldn't be given credit for beating them. And like I've said so many times before: the record books don't care about your competition, only your numbers.

I think the line goes that Djokovic is lucky that he isn't up against prime Fedal and that he had to wait for them to decline before he started dominating. Which, given that he started dominating back in 2011 when both were either still in or not far off their primes, only goes to show how little many of these critics actually study the game and its recent history?

 

[Djokovic2015]

I think the line goes that Djokovic is lucky that he isn't up against prime Fedal and that he had to wait for them to decline before he started dominating. Which, given that he started dominating back in 2011 when both were either still in or not far off their primes, only goes to show how little many of these critics actually study the game and its recent history?

I literally had a casual fed fan say to me a couple days ago "I would like to have seen how this Djokovic would have faired against Nadal and Federer 5 years ago"
was too perfect given what year 5 years ago was

 

[Mainad]

I literally had a casual fed fan say to me a couple days ago "I would like to have seen how this Djokovic would have faired against Nadal and Federer 5 years ago"
was too perfect given what year 5 years ago was

Lol...I rest my case!

 

[mattosgrant]

I literally had a casual fed fan say to me a couple days ago "I would like to have seen how this Djokovic would have faired against Nadal and Federer 5 years ago"
was too perfect given what year 5 years ago was

That is pretty hilarious. It reminds me of Survivor casuals who dont even know the insanely overrated Boston Rob didnt even make the jury 2 of his first 3 seasons.

 

[Service Ace]

People conflate "prime Fed and Nadal" with the pre-surface homogenization era. Djokovic's style of tennis would not hold up on the surface of the late 90s to mid 00s. People act like Djokovic was always this baseline player but in fact he used to play a much more attacking/junkballing style of tennis right up through 2011.

His tennis wasn't good enough to compete until the surfaces slowed down and he took advantage, becoming the best baseliner of the homogenization era but as we saw with Hewitt and the many Spaniards, baseline tennis wasn't really good enough to beat the players with big offensive weapons since Hewitt won his back at the turn of the 00s.

Pete, Agassi, Roddick, Safin, Delpo, Fed, Nadal all had big weapons that would tip the scales in their favor. Today, big weapons have been neutralized to the point where there are few on the tour that even go for their shots. Wawa managed to sneak a few hitting big but there is a reason this era has been dominated entirely by baseliners (Murray, Djokovic and the host of Spanish/French players that struggled in the pre-surface homogenization era that now occupy the top 10). It's also the reason American tennis is virtually dead because a big forehand/serve combination nets you no advantage on any particular surface as it used to be right up until Roddick and Blake retired.

Surface homogenization is why people favor Prime Fed and Nadal over Djokovic because most people feel tennis should require you to adapt your game to different surfaces and be able to outhit your opponent rather than outlast him. Today the player that plays baseline tennis is considered the best rather than who is actually the most versatile player. It's the different between thinking tennis is a game about shotmaking (favored by pre-surface homogenization) vs seeing tennis as a game about endurance (post-surface homogenization). Different strokes for different folks but I prefer when styles make fights as do most people fortunate enough to have been watching tennis prior to the rote era we've entered today)

 

[sbengte]

@sbengte

The truth is that I have really begun to wonder if Nadal will ever be back on the tour at anything close to his former level and the current state of the tour is pretty sad.

So these bullzie poasts in a sense are uplifting, thanks for bringing this to my attention

 

[Djokodal Fan]

There is nothing going on but spam posts from Fed trolls (not even Nadal trolls TBH because most of Nadal Bull, Angie, Clarky, Tennis Commentator, Happy for that, Dark knight have all retired). They are just sore that jok won 4 in a row that Fed could never manage. They just want to give excuses. That's all

20 years from now, all these trolls will be doing something else in their life and Record books would say Fed had 17 slam and Novak had 4 in a row. End of story. Those that claim Djok had to face declined Fedal had no idea that Djok beat them to pulp in 2011 when none of them were in declined which is confirmed by the fact that the remaining of Big 4 won a slam each in 2012. Fed fans were rejoicing when Novak put Nadal in his place by giving him plates after plates in 2011. Now they are sore that Fed recently got too many plates and Murray couldn't do zilch to catch up with Novak's level

But I do agree with the fact that younger generation has not stepped up. When Roger was at prime Challengers in the Form of Nadal, Djokovic & Murray already were starting to push him at 19/20 years of age at grandslam semis and finals. It's not Djoker's fault that young gen cannot step up. But it is completely fault of Nadal to not capitalize and break Fed GS records. Thanks to Novak for saving Tennis instead of allowing some random mugs like Cilic to clinch GS with mediocre games and mindset on a regular basis. Cilic you lucky B****ard!

 

[90's Clay]

You can only beat who is in front of you.. The only reason Federer was winning so much in the mid 2000s because there was no peak Nadal/Nole around.

See how easy it is to twist things around in your favor?

Sure Fedal would be stopping Nole still but certainly not consistently. The Nole since 2011 would still have an advantage over Fed regardless and probably vs. Nadal (though Nadal was a tougher customer at his peak in slams IMO)

 

[mattosgrant]

There is nothing going on but spam posts from Fed trolls (not even Nadal trolls TBH because most of Nadal Bull, Angie, Clarky, Tennis Commentator, Happy for that, Dark knight have all retired). They are just sore that jok won 4 in a row that Fed could never manage. They just want to give excuses. That's all

20 years from now, all these trolls will be doing something else in their life and Record books would say Fed had 17 slam and Novak had 4 in a row. End of story. Those that claim Djok had to face declined Fedal had no idea that Djok beat them to pulp in 2011 when none of them were in declined which is confirmed by the fact that the remaining of Big 4 won a slam each in 2012. Fed fans were rejoicing when Novak put Nadal in his place by giving him plates after plates in 2011. Now they are sore that Fed recently got too many plates and Murray couldn't do zilch to catch up with Novak's level

But I do agree with the fact that younger generation has not stepped up. When Roger was at prime Challengers in the Form of Nadal, Djokovic & Murray already were starting to push him at 19/20 years of age at grandslam semis and finals. It's not Djoker's fault that young gen cannot step up. But it is completely fault of Nadal to not capitalize and break Fed GS records. Thanks to Novak for saving Tennis instead of allowing some random mugs like Cilic to clinch GS with mediocre games and mindset on a regular basis. Cilic you lucky B****ard!

Very well said. ITA with every part of your post.

 

[nolefam_2024]

There is nothing going on but spam posts from Fed trolls (not even Nadal trolls TBH because most of Nadal Bull, Angie, Clarky, Tennis Commentator, Happy for that, Dark knight have all retired). They are just sore that jok won 4 in a row that Fed could never manage. They just want to give excuses. That's all

20 years from now, all these trolls will be doing something else in their life and Record books would say Fed had 17 slam and Novak had 4 in a row. End of story. Those that claim Djok had to face declined Fedal had no idea that Djok beat them to pulp in 2011 when none of them were in declined which is confirmed by the fact that the remaining of Big 4 won a slam each in 2012. Fed fans were rejoicing when Novak put Nadal in his place by giving him plates after plates in 2011. Now they are sore that Fed recently got too many plates and Murray couldn't do zilch to catch up with Novak's level

But I do agree with the fact that younger generation has not stepped up. When Roger was at prime Challengers in the Form of Nadal, Djokovic & Murray already were starting to push him at 19/20 years of age at grandslam semis and finals. It's not Djoker's fault that young gen cannot step up. But it is completely fault of Nadal to not capitalize and break Fed GS records. Thanks to Novak for saving Tennis instead of allowing some random mugs like Cilic to clinch GS with mediocre games and mindset on a regular basis. Cilic you lucky B****ard!

Didn't lucky Cilic destroy Federer? Besides that agree with all the points.

 

[jhhachamp]

Seriously, I've lost count of the amount of times I hear "Djokovic is only winning so much because of Fedal's decline" but the question that always comes straight to my mind is "why do they expect peak Fedal to still be around anyway?'. Tbh I can understand more why some people believe Nadal should still be playing at a reasonably high level given he's only a year younger than Djokovic but Federer?! Think about it - the guy first became number 1 at the beginning of 2004 and was part of a different generation to Djokovic so it's wholly unrealistic to expect him to still be challenging the world's best player all these years later. He was bound to experience a natural decline so why on earth do some of you make out Novak should be grateful for it when it was to going to happen anyway?

What gets me is how you never hear anyone say "oh Graf only won so much due to Navratilova's decline" or "Lendl only won so much due to Connors' decline". Most reasonable people just attribute it to one player hitting their stride and the other slowing down as is only natural in any sport but for some reason Fedal fans still expect them to be playing in 2016 like they were a decade earlier which just seems crazy to me...

I think you are misunderstanding what the fans are actually saying. Fedal were expected to decline. The major difference in Djokovic's case compared to all of the other examples you used where one player hits his stride as another is slowing down...is that Djokovic has no great player younger a few years younger than him to come along and rip away his spot at the top of the game.

So, the natural progression is that Djokovic will win more as he comes into his prime and Fedal decline. The natural progression after that is that another great player would come along and win more as he comes into his prime and Djokovic declines. The difference with Djokovic is that no such player exists...the players ages 23-27 right now are probably among the weakest in history. This means that as Djokovic declines, he can continue to dominate for a few years than most other great players were able to.

 

[Service Ace]

Sure Fedal would be stopping Nole still but certainly not consistently. The Nole since 2011 would still have an advantage over Fed regardless and probably vs. Nadal (though Nadal was a tougher customer at his peak in slams IMO)

I know you are a Fed hater but this is a really really bad point considering Fed still beats DJokovic in best of 3s at 34 years of age. You can't ignore the fact that age and endurance go hand in hand even for trolling purposes.

 

[Djokodal Fan]

Didn't lucky Cilic destroy Federer? Besides that agree with all the points.

Well, IMO it was Fluke run. That's all. Why is that he could reproduce that form on a consistent basis then? He got lucky. It's ok. But to put him in the league of grandslam champions who Novak had to go through in his road to finals of Wimbledon 2015 and USopen 2015 is absurd. This is what Fed fans have been doing. They think Grand slam winners are mental Giants and Fed deserves a lot more Credit for his win.

But the fact is all this Hewitt and Roddick type of players were nothing but transitional champions who got blown away when someone with real stuff showed up. If Fed had showed up in 2001 or 2002, there would no slams for them to be honest. Safin was more of a streaker like Wawrinka. He cannot put 2 tournament wins B2B. Such high are their mental toughness.

All I see is each fan base degrading other here. I have seen enough of Fed trolls demean Nadal's achievement calling his tennis Moonballing, boring, Only good for clay, only wins when healthy Blah Blah and what not....I can dig up numerous posts of all these Fed trolls in their older aliases who have become Sudden Nadal/Fedal fans just to demean what Novak has achieved. Nothing more, nothing less!

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

You Novak fans are so insecure. Get over yourself, your mans stacking up the trophies yet you still feel the need to constantly remind people about his 'ownage' of Nadal and Federer. Grow up.

I never said I didn't appreciate Novak, what he's doing is unbelievable, it's his annoying fans that I can't deal with.

Compared to what he has achieved recently, I don't think his fans are that annoying. Of course there is a chance that I am biased in that statement myself, while you'll be able to separate good ones from the bad ones with time. Anyway, welcome to TTW, you'll be hearing a lot of interesting claims from all sides.

I do agree with you overall but as a general rule I think Nadal's 7 loss streak to Djokovic while still fully in his prime and near his peak looks badly on him, as even his 15 set losing streak today does. Keep in mind even in Federer- Nadal (and we all know about Nadal's ownage of Federer in their history) Fed never had a period of ineptitude anything like that, not even in old age. The one good thing for Nadal is his head to head is still quite respectable, and slam head to head with Djokovic overall still excellent (for now).

It will stay that way because Nadal has to make it to Djokovic at Slams first and he's been finding that very difficult lately.

 

[Maestroesque]

Compared to what he has achieved recently, I don't think his fans are that annoying. Of course there is a chance that I am biased in that statement myself, while you'll be able to separate good ones from the bad ones with time. Anyway, welcome to TTW, you'll be hearing a lot of interesting claims from all sides.

It will stay that way because Nadal has to make it to Djokovic at Slams first and he's been finding that very difficult lately.

Nice to meet you too and thanks for the warm welcome!

 

[swordtennis]

Djokovic always had a Fed inferiority complex mental problem against Fed. Lesser extent with Nadal.
He finally got over most of it winning that Wimbledon 2014 title.
re watched that match last night. You could see it through that whole match. Winning that 5th set you could see most of it melt away.

 

[DRII]

Lol...I rest my case!

uhm, you have no case. unless you somehow delusionaly think that Djokovic had 3 slam years, every year, since 2011!

sorry, but thats not the case. 2011 was his break out year consistently defeating a somewhat worn out after an outstanding 2010, yet still prime Nadal, to win 3 slams. he didn't do that again until 2015, when Nadal and Federer were on steady declines.

so 2011 proves to be the exception not the rule.

recognize!

Now if your guy, Murray, didn't foolishly have back surgery - diminishing his movement and endurance in the process; Djokovic may have had some actual competition and there would be little room to criticize his achievements. but he did and we are where we are...

 

[Djokodal Fan]

uhm, you have no case. unless you somehow delusionaly think that Djokovic had 3 slam years, every year, since 2011!

sorry, but thats not the case. 2011 was his break out year consistently defeating a somewhat worn out after an outstanding 2010, yet still prime Nadal, to win 3 slams. he didn't do that again until 2015, when Nadal and Federer were on steady declines.

so 2011 proves to be the exception not the rule.

recognize!

Now if your guy, Murray, didn't foolishly have back surgery - diminishing his movement and endurance in the process; Djokovic may have had some actual competition and there would be little room to criticize his achievements. but he did and we are where we are...

Which is exactly the point of this thread. Why is prime Fedal expected to challenge Djokovic in 2016? Isn't Fedal expected to decline? Didn't Guga Decline when Nadal took over RG? Were people discounting Nadal's RG achievement just because he didn't face prime Borg or Prime Guga?

 

[Charlie]

Djokovic is the Fedal party crasher. That's why a lot want to asterisk his achievements. Pity for them it's not working.

 

[Tony48]

edit: n/m

 

[Chadillac]

In 14/15 Federer against Djokovic was all that mattered. No, only Djokovic matters. If you know what I mean. There´s no ongoing rivalry

Fed was 3-4 last year vs djok (two losses were rain delays). Who has a better h2h over the past few years?

 

[Djokovic2015]

uhm, you have no case. unless you somehow delusionaly think that Djokovic had 3 slam years, every year, since 2011!

sorry, but thats not the case. 2011 was his break out year consistently defeating a somewhat worn out after an outstanding 2010, yet still prime Nadal, to win 3 slams. he didn't do that again until 2015, when Nadal and Federer were on steady declines.

so 2011 proves to be the exception not the rule.

recognize!

Now if your guy, Murray, didn't foolishly have back surgery - diminishing his movement and endurance in the process; Djokovic may have had some actual competition and there would be little room to criticize his achievements. but he did and we are where we are...

lol how many times did Rafa back up his 3 slam year?

 

[DRII]

lol how many times did Rafa back up his 3 slam year?

right...
because he consistently had to face the other 2 ATGs during his slam wins. and also the obvious numerous injuries he has sustained throughout his career.

 

[uscwang]

People conflate "prime Fed and Nadal" with the pre-surface homogenization era. Djokovic's style of tennis would not hold up on the surface of the late 90s to mid 00s. People act like Djokovic was always this baseline player but in fact he used to play a much more attacking/junkballing style of tennis right up through 2011.

His tennis wasn't good enough to compete until the surfaces slowed down and he took advantage, becoming the best baseliner of the homogenization era but as we saw with Hewitt and the many Spaniards, baseline tennis wasn't really good enough to beat the players with big offensive weapons since Hewitt won his back at the turn of the 00s.

Pete, Agassi, Roddick, Safin, Delpo, Fed, Nadal all had big weapons that would tip the scales in their favor. Today, big weapons have been neutralized to the point where there are few on the tour that even go for their shots. Wawa managed to sneak a few hitting big but there is a reason this era has been dominated entirely by baseliners (Murray, Djokovic and the host of Spanish/French players that struggled in the pre-surface homogenization era that now occupy the top 10). It's also the reason American tennis is virtually dead because a big forehand/serve combination nets you no advantage on any particular surface as it used to be right up until Roddick and Blake retired.

Surface homogenization is why people favor Prime Fed and Nadal over Djokovic because most people feel tennis should require you to adapt your game to different surfaces and be able to outhit your opponent rather than outlast him. Today the player that plays baseline tennis is considered the best rather than who is actually the most versatile player. It's the different between thinking tennis is a game about shotmaking (favored by pre-surface homogenization) vs seeing tennis as a game about endurance (post-surface homogenization). Different strokes for different folks but I prefer when styles make fights as do most people fortunate enough to have been watching tennis prior to the rote era we've entered today)

Funny that Messi only needs to play on grass, and Jordan on hardwood.
But tennis has to be played on every surface that comes out of Home Depot so that the lesser players can have their days too.

 

[Tenez101]

Well, Federer was consistently challenging Djokovic even last year (in two grand slam finals, no less), so it's not really a stretch of the imagination. I expect a big run at Wimbledon for Federer this year.

 

[Zetty]

I think few expected Fed to still be challenging Djokovic at this point. Actually that Fed was probably the 2nd best player last year (despite being ranked #3) is a sign of the weakness of the field to many people. Although if that is the case, what does it say for the womens field when Serena who was born a month from Federer was the dominant #1 at the exact same age (and I am a huge Serena fan).

Nadal many would reasonably expect to still be competitive with Djokovic based on the fact he is only a year older. However on the other hand his earlier decline shouldnt be too big a surprise given his playing style, but it is pretty shocking how quickly and far he has fallen.



The incredible weakness of the 89-92 players (probably the worst generation in tennis history) is why the field is so weak these few years. They were always a sucky generation, but it didnt really matter until now. In theory this is the time they would be shining, and they simply arent good enough to shine.

I do think the field will significantly improve in the next year or two when the 93-96 players have risen to the point of being real contenders, as I dont think they are as weak a generation as 89-92.

And what did it say about the field in 2003 that Agassi was ranked #4 at years end.

 

[Djokovic2015]

right...
because he consistently had to face the other 2 ATGs during his slam wins. and also the obvious numerous injuries he has sustained throughout his career.

beaten by Mueller and Blake in 05
beaten by Youzhny in 06
beaten by Gonzalez and Ferrer in 07
beaten by Murray and Tsonga in 08
beaten by Soderling and Del Po in 09
beaten by Darcis in 13
beaten by Wawrinka and Kyrgios in 14
beaten by his own style of play in 15 and 16

The ATGs had nothing to do with his inability to win 3 majors in any of those seasons

Can only blame competition for 2011 (the year Djokovic took that same competition to the tune of 3 slams) and 2012 (which you strangely admonish Djokovic for being unable to back up a 3 slam season with another even though his 2012 was a stronger back up job than Nadal's 2011 was and he still ended #1)

 

[DRII]

beaten by Mueller and Blake in 05
beaten by Youzhny in 06
beaten by Gonzalez and Ferrer in 07
beaten by Murray and Tsonga in 08
beaten by Soderling and Del Po in 09
beaten by Darcis in 13
beaten by Wawrinka and Kyrgios in 14
beaten by his own style of play in 15 and 16

The ATGs had nothing to do with his inability to win 3 majors in any of those seasons

Can only blame competition for 2011 (the year Djokovic took that same competition to the tune of 3 slams) and 2012 (which you strangely admonish Djokovic for being unable to back up a 3 slam season with another even though his 2012 was a stronger back up job than Nadal's 2011 was and he still ended #1)

guess you didn't notice the injury part!

Nadal did not become an ATG until 08 where he won 3 out of 4 slams (including Aussie 09). in 09 he suffered major injuries for the rest of the year, thus allowing Federer to win the French. he then won 3/4 slams in 2010. then came Djokovic 2011...

point is, Nadal has always had to face at least one prime to peak ATG in a calendar year to win his slams! same can not be said for Federer (pre 2008) or Djokovic (post 2015).

those are just the facts. Nadal has faced greater competition overall and has won more if not dominated the slams vs those other ATGs while he was in his prime.

 

[shankster]

What I find interesting is how differently people treat Nadal compared to the treatment Murray is receiving. They are both pretty much Djokovic's generation and both have had poor recent results against him (Nadal's are even worse than Murray's), but when Nadal loses he gets a free pass for being "washed up and declined" while when Murray loses he is the worst ever #2, pathetic and useless.

Because Nadal, despite being in Djokovic's age group, his prime was actually closer to Federer's than Djokovic's. He has done his fair share of beating Djoker. 23 matches as opposed to Murray's 10. 14 slams as opposed to Murray's 2. 28 Masters as opposed to Murray's 12. Far more mileage, much quicker decline. Ridiculous to compare the two. Murray is criticised because he is supposed to be in his prime (according to many) right now unlike Rafa, whose glory days are quite clearly consigned to the history books.

 

[NoleFam]

Let them hate. Most of us here watched tennis from 2004-2007 and don't see a huge difference of the field now as it was then. Is it the strongest it ever was right now? No but it sure as hell wasn't then either. 4 Slams in a row on different surfaces is extremely impressive no matter how you cut it. The 1st man in 47 years to do it. That in itself overshadows any negative spin anybody tries to throw Djokovic's way.

 

[Jonas78]

There is nothing going on but spam posts from Fed trolls (not even Nadal trolls TBH because most of Nadal Bull, Angie, Clarky, Tennis Commentator, Happy for that, Dark knight have all retired). They are just sore that jok won 4 in a row that Fed could never manage. They just want to give excuses. That's all

20 years from now, all these trolls will be doing something else in their life and Record books would say Fed had 17 slam and Novak had 4 in a row. End of story. Those that claim Djok had to face declined Fedal had no idea that Djok beat them to pulp in 2011 when none of them were in declined which is confirmed by the fact that the remaining of Big 4 won a slam each in 2012. Fed fans were rejoicing when Novak put Nadal in his place by giving him plates after plates in 2011. Now they are sore that Fed recently got too many plates and Murray couldn't do zilch to catch up with Novak's level

But I do agree with the fact that younger generation has not stepped up. When Roger was at prime Challengers in the Form of Nadal, Djokovic & Murray already were starting to push him at 19/20 years of age at grandslam semis and finals. It's not Djoker's fault that young gen cannot step up. But it is completely fault of Nadal to not capitalize and break Fed GS records. Thanks to Novak for saving Tennis instead of allowing some random mugs like Cilic to clinch GS with mediocre games and mindset on a regular basis. Cilic you lucky B****ard!

Good post, you are a Djokovic-fan, but not one of the Ultronians. I pretty much agree, Federer in prime 2011 is at least debatable, but its no doubt that Novak has had worthy competition most of his career. Im glad you also dont supress the fact that the younger guys dont seem to step up.

 

[junior74]

Fed was 3-4 last year vs djok (two losses were rain delays). Who has a better h2h over the past few years?

You cut out a sentence from my post, that was part of a discussion with @Djokovic2011. Not sure I catch your drift.

Murray is down 2-13 in 2014/15.
Nadal is down 1-9.
Federer is down 6-8 (6-9 if we include Walk Over, but that feels strange in a H2H)

My point was I think Djokovic misses a rival. Federer kinda was one in 14/15, despite being past prime and quite old. They both talked about the challenge every match was against the other, and tennis felt more "alive" with that thing ongoing. The other two have been utter jokes. Murray is 0-5 against Federer in 14/15