Why do we suck?

ey039524

Hall of Fame
That one of the Bryan Brothers can’t half volley.
The one w 18 slams or 16?
I don’t think expect this chapter will will end well.

Do you ever wonder why when you watch tournaments of old singles guys in their 60s, that no one hits very hard?
I play w a guy who is nearing 70. He hits harder than anyone I play w. He just had open heart surgery, though (and just had back surgery). He's an exception, I admit. It's possible to play like this, but not common.

I'm starting to accept that percentage shots are what win. Although pushing is boring tennis, it's what wins. I, personally, don't care about winning ;)
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
The one w 18 slams or 16?

I play w a guy who is nearing 70. He hits harder than anyone I play w. He just had open heart surgery, though (and just had back surgery). He's an exception, I admit. It's possible to play like this, but not common.

I'm starting to accept that percentage shots are what win. Although pushing is boring tennis, it's what wins. I, personally, don't care about winning ;)
Did you ever ask yourself why he needed open heart surgery (and back surgery)?
 

tendency

Semi-Pro
Have you sometimes wondered that? Or, strongly questioned that yourself?

I kinda refuse the answer that I lack intelligence to figure out stuff, ie techniques, howto's, but frankly lot of times it does seem like I do lack understandings.

Watching other rec players it also seems like the same case.

They do blatant, weird, ineffective stuff, too.

But of course nobody tells them nor do they care to listen.

Most used and plausible excuse I use for myself is my physical limits.

Like, I wanna bounce more for necessary quickness, explosiveness, but that ain't happening with a questionable knee.

Then there's also the sleep problem. Ive been up since 2am.

How tf am I gonna compete well in 7 hrs against a fitness obsessed opponent?

If I lose I plan to tell myself that it makes sense & it's acceptable.

And along the way I reinforce my suckness. Lazy, decreased sense of competition.

it's a fairly simple answer IMO: lack of athletic ability and taking up the sport as an adult. done.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
it's a fairly simple answer IMO: lack of athletic ability and taking up the sport as an adult. done.
Given two 50 years old's, both have played for 10+ years, almost athletically the same, why is it that one is 4.5 ntrp and the other is not even 3.5?

Hard for me to understand the gap! ,ie the badness of the 3.5 player or the excel of the other one.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Given two 50 years old's, both have played for 10+ years, almost athletically the same, why is it that one is 4.5 ntrp and the other is not even 3.5?

Hard for me to understand the gap! ,ie the badness of the 3.5 player or the excel of the other one.
I’ve never seen or heard of a 50 yo 4.5 who started tennis after 40.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Enough to know, C.

Is there USTA or league tournaments in your part of the world?
Yes, a lot of them. @zill would know better as he’s been competing regularly for years. Our rating system is different but UTR has been used widely in the last 5 years maybe. We’re talking about UTR 7+. Let’s ask zill how many 50 yo UTR 7+ he’s seen who started tennis after age 20.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
I’ve never seen or heard of a 50 yo 4.5 who started tennis after 40.

There are two at our club. One picked up a racquet for the first time ever in his early 40's, played competitively at 3.5 right away due to getting everything back, and was a 5.0 before age 50 with no formal training. Now, approaching 55 and with multiple joint issues, he's still a strong 5.0.

His technique is not textbook, but his footwork is excellent. He gets to most every ball in balance and gets it back in the court. Over time, he has developed a strong serve and forehand, and volleys the ball well, which is what got him to 5.0.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
There are two at our club. One picked up a racquet for the first time ever in his early 40's, played competitively at 3.5 right away due to getting everything back, and was a 5.0 before age 50 with no formal training. Now, approaching 55 and with multiple joint issues, he's still a strong 5.0.

His technique is not textbook, but his footwork is excellent. He gets to most every ball in balance and gets it back in the court. Over time, he has developed a strong serve and forehand, and volleys the ball well, which is what got him to 5.0.
Someone in his early 40s grabs a racket for the first time and competes at 3.5 level right away. Are you sure there’s not something missing in this story?
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Someone in his early 40s grabs a racket for the first time and competes at 3.5 level right away. Are you sure there’s not something missing in this story?

Nope. The guy played college baseball. He could get a serve in almost from the beginning, made clean contact most of the time, and moved well for someone who had never been on a tennis court. He concentrated on his footwork, not his strokes, and got balls back. As he learned footwork patterns and recovery patterns, he became more comfortable hitting the ball more aggressively because he was so often in balance. As his strokes got better, he continued to move up. He might have even made 4.0 by the end of the first year, was a 4.5 by about year three or four, and a 5.0 by year five or six.

The other guy joined the club because of his wife. He had never picked up a racquet and started by hitting with his young kids as they participated in the junior program. He watched what they were taught, and implemented that in his own game to be a model for his kids. I think it was a few years before he actually played USTA but started as a 4.0. He moved up to 4.5 within a couple of years, and made 5.0 not long after that. Another good but not great athlete who concentrated on what his young kids were taught - get to the ball with the correct spacing and footwork, and make contact out in front with positive weight transfer. This guy does have beautiful, classic strokes and rarely looks rushed. He's able to, and happy to, hit a dozen balls each point until he gets what he wants, and then hits a ball closer to the line but not any harder, and comes in to finish off the point.

I might have made more progress if I had followed their path. Instead, because I could always hit the ball well, I concentrated on hitting the ball even better. There's a limit to how high a senior player can get by doing that without having the foundational footwork to implement those strokes when opponents are doing their best to make it difficult.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
There’s something missing all right. The guy not obsessing over minute details, watching too many YT videos and changing his approach to the game every time the wind blows.

That is exactly it. Both these guys either luckily or innately understood the improvement process involved getting to the ball, and their strokes developed as quickly as if they ONLY concentrated on ball striking, because their footwork and balance allowed that to happen. They became good at using their stroke technique WHEN they had to move, instead of having their strokes fall apart BECAUSE they had to move. Both of these guys pretty much look like just better versions of their beginner selves - neither has as far as I know, made any radical changes to their stroke techniques.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Someone in his early 40s grabs a racket for the first time and competes at 3.5 level right away. Are you sure there’s not something missing in this story?
see, I told you they exist. Just because we suck, doesn't mean others are like us :laughing:

To you tennis might be like ...Olympic gymnastics... simply impossible but to them it's like pickleball.

Many people just don't suck at pb. They simply pick up a paddle and play pb well.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Who else has stories like this? 0 to 5.0 in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years. Let’s hear more.

That is exactly it. Both these guys either luckily or innately understood the improvement process involved getting to the ball, and their strokes developed as quickly as if they ONLY concentrated on ball striking, because their footwork and balance allowed that to happen. They became good at using their stroke technique WHEN they had to move, instead of having their strokes fall apart BECAUSE they had to move. Both of these guys pretty much look like just better versions of their beginner selves - neither has as far as I know, made any radical changes to their stroke techniques.
I play with one guy like that. No idea what his rating is. A woman in our group dated him and dragged him to the courts like 4 years ago which was the time he started learning.

Today he competes well with...the main crowd. He could poach, volley better than many who have played for 10, 15 years.

I just consider him as athletic and being handy overall.

If you're so fit and fast that you get to most balls ready to hit, like self-feed the ball, wouldn't it be quite easy to hit well?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I play with one guy like that. No idea what his rating is. A woman in our group dated him and dragged him to the courts like 4 years ago which was the time he started learning.

Today he competes well with...the main crowd. He could poach, volley better than many who have played for 10, 15 years.

I just consider him as athletic and being handy overall.

If you're so fit and fast that you get to most balls ready to hit, like self-feed the ball, wouldn't it be quite easy to hit well?
I didn’t say it based on you and me. I’ve also known /seen hundreds of rec players and never heard of an exceptional story like those above. Hence I can of course conclude that outliers don’t change the whole picture.
 

Dragy

Legend
I didn’t say it based on you and me. I’ve also known /seen hundreds of rec players and never heard of an exceptional story like those above. Hence I can of course conclude that outliers don’t change the whole picture.
You go to where good players play, and are presented in numbers. Not public parks or 3.5 (or analogous) league. There you talk to them, or you stay there for couple of years and observe improvements. So you see these stories.

There're many of those who start right at 3.5 level quite competitive from the get go, like couple of months into tennis. Most are athletic. As we discussed, there're million ways to loose as a 3.5, and those who learn to naturally expose it - start wining very soon.

The trick is, there're still a hundred of ways to loose as a 4.0-4.5. Those who learn to establish winning patterns for themselves - and loosing patters for opponents - progress in results much easier compared to the other; others, who aim to make their strokes reach some kind of "max potential" tend to learn to compete later, or never. It's not that the first group shouldn't improve their technique and strokes, but they likely to it to close the gaps and improve their strengths within current or perspective winning patterns. While I want that slice serve to hit aces :-D
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
While I've never seen an adult learner w good form, the closest to seeing someone was a dance choreographer who had been playing for less than a year:
He had a decent forehand, but his volley form was atrocious, and he didn't know where to position himself (doubles). Crazy athletic, and being a dancer, I think he was able to watch a swing and emulate it w his body. Last I saw him, he was playing a 3.5 league and hadn't lost, yet. probably more like a 4.0, after a few months.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Who else has stories like this? 0 to 5.0 in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years. Let’s hear more.

What’s the point anyway? As you correctly mentioned, these are extreme outliers and I am also skeptical that these folks never touched a racquet before 40.

At the end of the day, even if these mythical beasts exist, it doesn’t help almost any of us here.
 

Dragy

Legend
What’s the point anyway? As you correctly mentioned, these are extreme outliers and I am also skeptical that these folks never touched a racquet before 40.

At the end of the day, even if these mythical beasts exist, it doesn’t help almost any of us here.
It’s all about whether you find excuses because “most tennis players never get better than 3.5”, or you are actually happy playing whatever level you are at, and not trying to prove something on the Internet message board…

Or if you actually aspire for some better level — you can focus on communicating to those who actually managed to progress and reach some particular (nothing special, we are not talking magic like getting an ATP point) level. Start with finding the right crowd, where being 4.0/4.5/5.0 is normal, not outstanding.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
If a high level stroke consists of a coordinated specific set of sub-motions as on most of the ATP strokes and other important things are necessary.

If others don't know an effective set of coordinated sub-motions they are doing DIY techniques.

In otherwords. they don't know the high level techniques. For example, they could not write down or point out the sub-motions in an ATP player video.

Other things too, but knowing comes first. That includes what a good coach can convey.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
You go to where good players play, and are presented in numbers. Not public parks or 3.5 (or analogous) league. There you talk to them, or you stay there for couple of years and observe improvements. So you see these stories.

There're many of those who start right at 3.5 level quite competitive from the get go, like couple of months into tennis. Most are athletic.

Agreed with these parts.

The problem is Curious can only speak of his (small) world and believe it is reality everywhere. :)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
It’s all about whether you find excuses because “most tennis players never get better than 3.5”, or you are actually happy playing whatever level you are at, and not trying to prove something on the Internet message board…

Or if you actually aspire for some better level — you can focus on communicating to those who actually managed to progress and reach some particular (nothing special, we are not talking magic like getting an ATP point) level. Start with finding the right crowd, where being 4.0/4.5/5.0 is normal, not outstanding.

(y)(y) exactly.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Since I started this thread -- basically just a way for me to pay more attention to my game -- I have become less sucky. Won two sets and tied one against my usual friends :)

I just recalled how to read and intercept the incoming ball better. Plus, developed a more compact takeback.

I just realized my tennis is like OS updates. Features (and bugs) come and go.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
It’s all about whether you find excuses because “most tennis players never get better than 3.5”, or you are actually happy playing whatever level you are at, and not trying to prove something on the Internet message board…

Or if you actually aspire for some better level — you can focus on communicating to those who actually managed to progress and reach some particular (nothing special, we are not talking magic like getting an ATP point) level. Start with finding the right crowd, where being 4.0/4.5/5.0 is normal, not outstanding.

First of all unlike OP, I dont periodically open new threads asking why I suck. As you said there is no magic there. I know I suck because I started tennis late and didn’t put the time off the court because of kids and injuries. However before tennis, I used to play racquetball till my early 40s and was pretty good at it. So I know what it takes on and off the court.

What I am saying has nothing to do with excuses. Understand what an outlier means.

I have met some pretty good players who started late. There is a difference between being a pretty good rec player and a computer ranked 4.5. let alone a 5.0. Especially someone who starts after 40 and becomes a 5.0. That is the mother of all outliers.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
First of all unlike OP, I dont periodically open new threads asking why I suck. As you said there is no magic there. I know I suck because I started tennis late and didn’t put the time off the court because of kids and injuries. However before tennis, I used to play racquetball till my early 40s and was pretty good at it. So I know what it takes on and off the court.

What I am saying has nothing to do with excuses. Understand what an outlier means.

I have met some pretty good players who started late. There is a difference between being a pretty good rec player and a computer ranked 4.5. let alone a 5.0. Especially someone who starts after 40 and becomes a 5.0. That is the mother of all outliers.


I think only @Curious started the thing about "after 40 and becomes a 5.0" and then proceed to question it. What a weird way to conduct conversation.

Read back, I think I only mentioned 4.5 after 10+ years which I have met plenty in a league competition.

4.5 after 12, 15, 20 years, even started in adulthood isn't super amazing to me or anything but perhaps it is for people like Curious. I dunno.

Again, @Dragy made a very good and valid point in that if you want to meet good players in said calibers you should seek and hang out more in that specialty crowd.

I believe I have said that too, "start to get out more!" My impression is they're not elite or outliers or anything though they are in minority obviously. They just love, if not obsessed, about tennis AND competition. Can be said very different from here where the obsession is only over talks and small details :) missing the larger point of sport competition. :)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Oh no... That's not good :-D
if I could retain all the nice things and reduce, eliminate the bad things over all these years of trying, practicing, I would be as good as a semi-pro (minus the power :))

But rec tennis doesn't work that way. We discover something nice, keep it for a while, then fade out. Repeat.

3.5 for life!!!! LOL
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
What’s the point anyway? As you correctly mentioned, these are extreme outliers and I am also skeptical that these folks never touched a racquet before 40.

At the end of the day, even if these mythical beasts exist, it doesn’t help almost any of us here.
It's just conversations of interests. Maybe someone find it interesting or maybe not. Maybe it's helpful to learn something about oneself, where we are.

This is akin to while you're trying to overcome a terminal cancer and hearing someone has beaten it. Or, maybe you belong to the 99% that say *** it ..I'm throwing in the towel.
 

Dragy

Legend
This is akin to while you're trying to overcome a terminal cancer and hearing someone has beaten it. Or, maybe you belong to the 99% that say *** it ..I'm throwing in the towel.
Cmon, it’s not about giving up or something… tennis is an entertaining journey. It’s just frustrating when you cannot see a way to follow for the next year and then next year — well, reconsider your goal and then find those who achieved it, or those who are passionate to walk around you. Who cares if you actually get there, or not, or if you surpass all expectations? It will be another moment in life.

Just don’t get stuck where you are not happy!
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
This is serious talent in tennis. It's more than just movement. He must read and calculate the ball trajectory really well.

The guy was a college baseball player in the infield. So I think he came into the sport understanding the importance of footwork and balance in order to be able to quickly field and throw a ball, along with just the skills of being able to see and quickly judge balls that are scooting towards him at high speed and on the bounce. As he played tennis more, his footwork improved even more as he learned specific movement patterns (i.e., approach shot crossover steps), and that let him progress quickly even without textbook strokes or even stroke training.

I wish that 20 years ago when I started playing tennis again, that I had concentrated as much as footwork as I did on my strokes. I undoubtedly would have been a higher level player than I ever became, and to this day the thing that beats me are players that force me to move and to hit shots from what I think are awkward positions. I don’t hit effective shots in those situations and that’s why there’s a ceiling for me until I learn these things.
 

zoingy

Rookie
i once knew a guy who picked up a tennis racquet for the first time in his late 30s and could serve 120 within a week

this is very inspirational to me because even if it takes me 50x as long, in a year maybe I too will have been a teen star on the chinese national badminton team
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
It's just conversations of interests. Maybe someone find it interesting or maybe not. Maybe it's helpful to learn something about oneself, where we are.

This is akin to while you're trying to overcome a terminal cancer and hearing someone has beaten it. Or, maybe you belong to the 99% that say *** it ..I'm throwing in the towel.

Itf you want to use that analogy the corectl analogy would be a doc showing you a plan to beat cancer, but you don’t want to go through the chemo but want some magic pill and then wonder why you are not getting better.

This is not your first thread on wondering why you have plateaued . Many over the years have pointed out the steps and commitment off the court needed for one to improve. At that time you have come back and said you don’t have the time for all that and just want to have fun.

I don’t see anything wrong if that’s your objective but then why expect some new magic pill a few months later and start the same thread again?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Itf you want to use that analogy the corectl analogy would be a doc showing you a plan to beat cancer, but you don’t want to go through the chemo but want some magic pill and then wonder why you are not getting better.

This is not your first thread on wondering why you have plateaued . Many over the years have pointed out the steps and commitment off the court needed for one to improve. At that time you have come back and said you don’t have the time for all that and just want to have fun.

I don’t see anything wrong if that’s your objective but then why expect some new magic pill a few months later and start the same thread again?
Honestly i don't even remember I have started other threads on this topic but perhaps you're correct about more or less the same craps being discussed. That said, good luck finding fresh, totally original contents.

I think you misunderstood me about wanting to improve or commitments or anything like that. That's really not my intent here. I'm just curious if people are aware of what hinders them, and if they're like me.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Cmon, it’s not about giving up or something… tennis is an entertaining journey. It’s just frustrating when you cannot see a way to follow for the next year and then next year — well, reconsider your goal and then find those who achieved it, or those who are passionate to walk around you. Who cares if you actually get there, or not, or if you surpass all expectations? It will be another moment in life.

Just don’t get stuck where you are not happy!
Yeah...I was being too dramatic with the cancer analogy, but point stands regarding ...learning more, knowing more, hopefully finding the passion... or at least killing the boredom while away from the courts.

So, you think reaching 4.5, 5.0 levels is about setting goals and being around those players? I don't know. I'm just asking.
 

Dragy

Legend
So, you think reaching 4.5, 5.0 levels is about setting goals and being around those players? I don't know. I'm just asking.
Well I think it's more possible than if you don't set goals and move in random direction. Or when you set unrealistic goals or follow some hypothetical concept that no one yet used successfully to get to said 4.5 or 5.0.

Typical way of thinking is "I don't need that rec kind of 4.5 play, I'll be aiming for 120 mph serves and blistering FHs, and that will get me to the best of my potential!" - Maybe just choose some real life role models, choose ones that you like, not generalized or randomly (if you don't wanna do it MEP way, for God's sake, don't!), and see if you can repeat their steps, maybe even avoiding some of their mistakes. While making your own...

Then see how is works out, having fun on the way with good friends in tennis passion.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Honestly i don't even remember I have started other threads on this topic but perhaps you're correct about more or less the same craps being discussed. That said, good luck finding fresh, totally original contents.

I think you misunderstood me about wanting to improve or commitments or anything like that. That's really not my intent here. I'm just curious if people are aware of what hinders them, and if they're like me.

If someone was already pretty athletic, and had come from another racquet sport in their early 20s, a 4.0 is definitely achievable with the right training. 4.5 and above is still tough because those are at the higher end of the rec spectrum. I am sure relative to the mass number playing rec tennis, there are a few who have done it without touching a racquet in their younger days, but it is not easy and full props to them. Especially if they are doing it by hitting full blooded strokes. That definitely requires years of practice for most.

The reason I say that is because of how folks here have also explained it. It is not about athletic ability or hitting the ball well in practice. I can hold up pretty well against most ranked 4.5s and even some 5.0s in practice because I used to practice regularly against a 5.0 and know. Real games are different. Those same folks will win without much pressure because they know how to construct points, when to attack, when to defend and more importantly how to manage their nerves and strokes when they are not having their best day. Those constant micro adjustments on the fly are skills that only comes with tons of actual match practice under nerves.

For me, I subscribe to @nyta2 prescribed process. Focus on one thing and work on it. Small gains that add up to the enjoyment of the game even as injuries and age restrict other aspects such as moving up in ranked levels.
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Most people with above-average athleticism, correct focuses on fundamentals, effective learning, will get to 4.0 given enough time. all of the life long 3.5s that I have seen are missing one of these things. 4.0 is what I consider definitely "not suck" in rec tennis. It doesn't have to be 4.0C but roughly that level.
 
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