Why do we tend to frame shots when we accelerate hard?

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
We’ve all been there.

What do you mean by “boost?”
Disclaimer: I am a ttw "armless FH" heretic ... but my ttw brothers like me anyway. 8-B

The short version is I don't buy the monkey drum analogy of slinging the arm rope from body rotation.

I think the pro FH ... say Fed ... has two phases:

1) initial torso/shoulder rotation ... arm muscles doing little other than maintaining arm structure ... hand travels with shoulder line

2) second phase ... arm muscling to significantly add rhs (boost) to the moderate speed torso/shoulder rotation provided


... add phase 3 around hand if ATP flip.

Not a coach ... just read ttw posts and watch a lot of pro FH slow motion video.

Pro ATP FH words on this forum ... 1 trillion ... no two members agree with each other :p
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
I notice that.

When I see a ball set up too nice, too good not to smack it with forehand, I swing at it with much more acceleration than average, I tend to frame it!!!

I remember telling myself to look at the ball longer, to keep the shape of the swing nice and correct and everything.

So how do pro's accelerate their rackets, ie hitting winners, and never frame the shots? What's the check list for this?
the simple answer that will really help here is to understand not to accelerate too much, too early.....
Early over-acceleration will lead to mishits, but if you start the swing slower at the beginning to get it moving and properly aligned, then you well almost never frame if you don't headshift to screw it up, lol.
 

polksio

Semi-Pro
Disclaimer: I am a ttw "armless FH" heretic ... but my ttw brothers like me anyway. 8-B

The short version is I don't buy the monkey drum analogy of slinging the arm rope from body rotation.

I think the pro FH ... say Fed ... has two phases:

1) initial torso/shoulder rotation ... little arm muscles doing little other than maintaining arm structure ... hand travels with shoulder line

2) second phase ... arm muscling to significantly add rhs (boost) to the moderate speed torso/shoulder rotation provided


... add 3 phase around hand if ATP flip.

Not a coach ... just read ttw posts and watch a lot of pro FH slow motion video.

Pro ATP FH words on this forum ... 1 trillion ... no two members agree with each other :p
That's interesting, can you point me to a video of you hitting some rallies so I can see this technique in action?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
That's interesting, can you point me to a video of you hitting some rallies so I can see this technique in action?
Good luck getting BBP's video.

He and I belong to a sect where our Master forbids us to reveal our game online.

But you can definitely ask us to BS anything for you. BBP holds a much higher rank at that skill than me. Equivalent to black belt.
 

MasterZeb

Hall of Fame
practice.
If you practice mostly rally balls and you mostly hit rally balls. Then you want to hit a slap-shot winner, you're timing is off. All your references are off. You have no muscle-memory to prepare for and hit that shot.
Very good point that people across all levels overlook. Here’s a very good example
 

MasterZeb

Hall of Fame
Because people usually correlate to hitting the ball hard with slapping and completely abandon any solid technique.
 

ballmachineguy

Professional
Disclaimer: I am a ttw "armless FH" heretic ... but my ttw brothers like me anyway. 8-B

The short version is I don't buy the monkey drum analogy of slinging the arm rope from body rotation.

I think the pro FH ... say Fed ... has two phases:

1) initial torso/shoulder rotation ... little arm muscles doing little other than maintaining arm structure ... hand travels with shoulder line

2) second phase ... arm muscling to significantly add rhs (boost) to the moderate speed torso/shoulder rotation provided


... add 3 phase around hand if ATP flip.

Not a coach ... just read ttw posts and watch a lot of pro FH slow motion video.

Pro ATP FH words on this forum ... 1 trillion ... no two members agree with each other :p
Well, I went out to hit today, and, upon arrival I said “I’m not even going to try that crap that guy in the video was talking about.” Started hitting the ball pretty, prettyyyyy, pretttyyy, pretty well (sorry) but some sailed a bit. “Ok, I’ll try it, see what happens.” The first ball had completely different shape. Well, it turns out, when I drop feed, I accelerate from the get-go. That is why I always had success from drop feeds. When the ball is hit to me, or the machine pitches me one, I let gravity start the racquet down from furthest take-back spot and then flip and accelerate. Not as good. I guess I am not beyond getting help yet. Thanks!
 

Curiosity

Professional
Regarding this OP framing phenomenon ... did anyone mention the steep low to high thingy combined with the fast rhs thingy? That's when Fed does it ... once a year.
I was going to say that, but you beat me to it. The difficulty of speeding up a "low to high" swing is one of the reasons it pays to generate topspin from (laugh, here goes) ISR immediately before and through contact. It's harder to learn but easier to time when changing swing speed.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I was going to say that, but you beat me to it. The difficulty of speeding up a "low to high" swing is one of the reasons it pays to generate topspin from (laugh, here goes) ISR immediately before and through contact. It's harder to learn but easier to time when changing swing speed.
Hey friend ... hope all is well. This thread might get the old band back together. 8-B Where is @Bender ... not a band without Bender.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Thanks.

That's a new concept for me. So i think in all likelihood that is the culprit because I swear I tried to look at the ball harder, longer, keep my head steadier, pace well, keep the form right. It's frustrating.


Alright, back to the drawing table!! :giggle: :D
What about the lag? Did you manage to employ and keep the lag through the contact zone? And what part of the ball were you trying to brush?
Which part of the frame did you end up using? Front, back, left, right?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Hope all’s well with you too. I figured out the source of my framing problem a while back, but fixing it’s proven to be more difficult than I had hoped.
I’m ok ... if you can be ok in 2020.

If life gets any more exciting I won’t be able to handle it ... building fences, staining patio ... cleaning out garage this weekend. We are parked at a home chemical/pollutant drop off as I type. Even worse ... I think you could give us a $billion and we would still manage to remain bored.

Didn’t know about the Bender framing. I never went through any framing phases ... hard to miss the ball hitting 10 mph. 8-B Even in the first two weeks of 2hbhs when I was hitting the occasional ball into the park ... they were cleanly hit.:cool:
 

cortado

Professional
things that make me frame when accelerating hard...
* over rotating
* not keepin g eyes on contact (head jerks up moving me off swing plane)
* popping up (vs. staying down) - which moves me off the proper swing plane
* not stayhing in balance (which makes it hard to stay on the proper swing path)
* being too tense (taking me off proper swing path)
'Eyes on contact' is not possible. I don't know why we keep talking about this. You can't see contact (unless you are just gently tapping a very slow ball very slowly).
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
Thanks, everyone.

I just came back from a match where I lost, guess what, by framing too many shots. Even my friend commented about it. We went to a TB and a handful of framing really destroyed my chance.

I'm gonna take notes of everything you guys said.

But in the meantime I think i"m gonna learn how to play like a MEP. Gosh, so depressing. MEPs seem happy and oblivious to opponent's pain.
There's a guy we play with who frames the ball a lot. He uses Wilson Clash 100 racquets. 9/10 frame shots of his stay in play. Wilson Clash is the GOAT shank racquet.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
There's a guy we play with who frames the ball a lot. He uses Wilson Clash 100 racquets. 9/10 frame shots of his stay in play. Wilson Clash is the GOAT shank racquet.
Wow..this might be it. I frame half his number and im using Wilson Burn. :unsure::cry:
 

nyta2

Professional
'Eyes on contact' is not possible. I don't know why we keep talking about this. You can't see contact (unless you are just gently tapping a very slow ball very slowly).
whatever works for you... there's a reason fed's eeyes appear focused on contact all the time. cerntainly helps me to keep my eyes focused on contact.
fyi "eyes on contact" is not the same as seeing the ball make contact....
 
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