Why do you play 18x20? Trade-offs compared to 16x18 ?

sredna42

Hall of Fame
#8
I don't like strings to move, so I am going with 18x20

Why did you go with 18x20 ?
Need all the control I can get because i suck at this accursed game.
Predictable launch angle. Point and shoot.

Btw i held the tt100p over my tec315ltd 16x19 when i had one, and the central string spacings where almost the same, so its a more spin friendly 18x20 than a smaller frame
 
#9
I definitely had better serves and volleys using the 18x20 frame but found it very difficult to generate spin on ground strokes. So much so that I switched back to the 16x18 pattern. Once I did I saw an immediate improvement in my ground strokes.
 
#12
I prefer the lower launch angle and precision of the 18x20's. I can flatten out shots and hit more penetrating slices with them. I can hit the corners on serves far more accurately with the 18x20's. The difference in spin is minimal for me, since I can swing out more confidently with the 18x20's and that added RHS imparts some extra spin to make up for the inherent reduction in string movement.
 
#13
Dominik Thiem generates crazy spin, even more than Nadal, with an 18x20 string pattern. Makes me wonder....
Yeah well I’m not him. If you generate consistently good racquet head speed and play with poly then it’s not an issue. Most pros it seems prefer the 18x20 pattern and for good reason. The directional control it gives you is real. But for me the loss of spin on ground strokes was also real. Like I said as soon as I switched from the 100P (18x20) to the 100L (16x18) mybgroundstrokes improved. These racquets are almost identical (since the 100L is weighted up to about 325 grams) except for the strong pattern.
 
#14
Yeah well I’m not him. If you generate consistently good racquet head speed and play with poly then it’s not an issue. Most pros it seems prefer the 18x20 pattern and for good reason. The directional control it gives you is real. But for me the loss of spin on ground strokes was also real. Like I said as soon as I switched from the 100P (18x20) to the 100L (16x18) mybgroundstrokes improved. These racquets are almost identical (since the 100L is weighted up to about 325 grams) except for the strong pattern.
a lot of pros (and 5.0+ for that matter) who use an 18x20 do so simply bc they were breaking too many strings with an open pattern. not a very exciting reason, but true in many instances
 
#16
I like 18x20's on bigger head sized racquets. My go to racquets are 95 sq.i., on 98's and above I like the improved control of a 18x20, specially on volleying.
I tend to have better feeling with open string pattern racquets, so it's hard for me to find touch angles with a close string pattern.
The backhand slice with a proper 18x20 is addictive, that is true
 
#17
Generally:
18 X 20's (or dense)
  • More Control
  • Less Power
  • Longer String Life
  • Less Spin
  • Deader string bed
16 X 19's (or open)
  • Less control
  • More power
  • Shorter string life (the more open the shorter)
  • More spin
  • Lively string bed
These are generalizations. The description deader string bed is not meant to be derogatory, if someone has a better term, please insert. Pros/advanced players tend to use denser string beds because they can supply their own power and are looking for more control. It should be noted that tiny tweaks in a frame yield more results to pros/advanced players. Club players really don't have the technique to reap the benefits.

Bottom line, if you like a dense string pattern use one. If you (and this is me) prefer an open string pattern, that's groovy too. It's all personal preference.
 
#20
a lot of pros (and 5.0+ for that matter) who use an 18x20 do so simply bc they were breaking too many strings with an open pattern. not a very exciting reason, but true in many instances
Yes I guess that is true. I rarely break strings so there was no advantage there for me either.
 
#22
Generally:
18 X 20's (or dense)
  • More Control
  • Less Power
  • Longer String Life
  • Less Spin
  • Deader string bed
16 X 19's (or open)
  • Less control
  • More power
  • Shorter string life (the more open the shorter)
  • More spin
  • Lively string bed
These are generalizations. The description deader string bed is not meant to be derogatory, if someone has a better term, please insert. Pros/advanced players tend to use denser string beds because they can supply their own power and are looking for more control. It should be noted that tiny tweaks in a frame yield more results to pros/advanced players. Club players really don't have the technique to reap the benefits.

Bottom line, if you like a dense string pattern use one. If you (and this is me) prefer an open string pattern, that's groovy too. It's all personal preference.
You dont have more power with less strings! But the ball will go easilier deeper. Thats the same with low and high tension stringing. Not more power but more or less depth!
 
#23
With 18x20 you can play with thinner strings (without breaking them too fast), and thinner strings often have better feel.
I like playing my 18x20 with thicker strings to max out control of launch angle, depth control, and stability of stringbed playing characteristics.
 
#24
a lot of pros (and 5.0+ for that matter) who use an 18x20 do so simply bc they were breaking too many strings with an open pattern. not a very exciting reason, but true in many instances
I'm not sure that's it really. Pros get their strings for free and have multiple racquets to swap at any time. They care about performance only. I think many pros make their choices largely based on control. They have easily enough innate spin and power from their technique and strings so that they use string density to improve control and feel.

I'm no pro but I can certainly notice the difference in control between the Pure Drive/APD/Clashes of the world and my Phantom 93P and 100 18x20.
 
#25
People here talk that they can only generate spin with 16x18 pattern.. With the right tecnique you can generate tons of spin with 18x20. I have no problem to hit havy spinballs
Hmm. Selective reading to be sure.

But regardless let me clarify. I can generate spin with my Tour100P sure. But I find on groundies I can generate the same spin with less effort which give me a greater margin for error.

To be sure the 100P gave me greater directional control and helped me hit a flatter put away ball. But...I was just hitting way to many groundies out or in the net. What’s the point of having a good first serve and good volleys if I dump the return in the net or can’t hit a forehand from the baseline?

After two years I finally realized I wasn’t going to be able to play with the 100P so I gave the 100L a **** because it was on clearance. The rest as they say is history.
 
#26
You dont have more power with less strings! But the ball will go easilier deeper. Thats the same with low and high tension stringing. Not more power but more or less depth!
I'm not sure about the "easilier" part, but could the reason the ball goes deeper be because of the additional power? IME, I get more oomph on the ball -- read MPH's -- with an open string pattern. Call it what you will. I've also been told this by folks who are "in the know".
 
#27
Hmm. Selective reading to be sure.

But regardless let me clarify. I can generate spin with my Tour100P sure. But I find on groundies I can generate the same spin with less effort which give me a greater margin for error.

To be sure the 100P gave me greater directional control and helped me hit a flatter put away ball. But...I was just hitting way to many groundies out or in the net. What’s the point of having a good first serve and good volleys if I dump the return in the net or can’t hit a forehand from the baseline?

After two years I finally realized I wasn’t going to be able to play with the 100P so I gave the 100L a **** because it was on clearance. The rest as they say is history.
No not selective reading. And its not only in this thread. Maybe because of my background, im a high level coach, but most things are related to a good tecnique. And yes less strings make spin easier. But with a good tecnique it doesnt matter.
 
#28
I'm not sure about the "easilier" part, but could the reason the ball goes deeper be because of the additional power? IME, I get more oomph on the ball -- read MPH's -- with an open string pattern. Call it what you will. I've also been told this by folks who are "in the know".
Im a high level coach, and pro stringer and customizer. I know what I talk about. There's been studies about this subject. The ball goes deeper because the ball goes deeper in the strings and get more elasticy with that and flies further. With more tension, the ball goes less deeper in the stringbed, less elasticy and less depth.
 
#29
Im a high level coach, and pro stringer and customizer. I know what I talk about. There's been studies about this subject. The ball goes deeper because the ball goes deeper in the strings and get more elasticy with that and flies further. With more tension, the ball goes less deeper in the stringbed, less elasticy and less depth.
Would elasticity = power? Methinks so.

But whatever floats your boat.
 
#30
Would elasticity = power? Methinks so.

But whatever floats your boat.
You think wrong. But thats with a lot of people here. They think they know stuff but they dont.
That a ball goes deeper has nothing to do with power when you string at a lower tension. Its just physics. But if you think its power, I let you think that.
 
#31
You think wrong. But thats with a lot of people here. They think they know stuff but they dont.
That a ball goes deeper has nothing to do with power when you string at a lower tension. Its just physics. But if you think its power, I let you think that.
Just tell me English is not your native language & I'll believe you.

I think you're a bit mired in semantics. I get more pace playing with open string patterns than with closed string patterns. Whatever the reason, I perceive that to be an increase in power. More pace is equivalent to more power, yes?
 
#33
People here talk that they can only generate spin with 16x18 pattern.. With the right tecnique you can generate tons of spin with 18x20. I have no problem to hit havy spinballs
Yes, I agree. One of my friends, a 5.5+ player hits with tons of spin (more than anyone I play) with his Wilson 6.1 18x20, he has a great technique and chose 18x20 for the control as he sure can generate his own power.
 
#34
You think wrong. But thats with a lot of people here. They think they know stuff but they dont.
That a ball goes deeper has nothing to do with power when you string at a lower tension. Its just physics. But if you think its power, I let you think that.
My feeling is that I get more power from low string tension, but your take is interesting and could be valid too.

Cheers, Toby
 

TheRed

Professional
#35
a lot of pros (and 5.0+ for that matter) who use an 18x20 do so simply bc they were breaking too many strings with an open pattern. not a very exciting reason, but true in many instances
Yeah for more advanced players, they have no problem getting all the depth, spin and pop they need out of the 18x20 so why not just have strings that last longer. I used to be a string breaker and when I used the POG mid (14x18), I broke strings every 45 min to 1.5 hours, even with poly. Even stringing for myself and money not being a problem, I just got tired of stringing racquets all the time. Even now, give me a mult/poly in my 16x19 Response and I get a max of 3 hours. Being a family man now, it's just a pain to string so often.
 
#36
Just tell me English is not your native language & I'll believe you.

I think you're a bit mired in semantics. I get more pace playing with open string patterns than with closed string patterns. Whatever the reason, I perceive that to be an increase in power. More pace is equivalent to more power, yes?
Im from the Netherlands and I speak better English then I write. Can't help that.

Do you get more pressure in the ball or is the ball landing deeper in the court? Because a lot of people confuse pace with a lot of things.
And do you hit the ball different with 16x18? Faster swing to keep the ball in the court? That you adjust your swing relative to 18x20?

But most of the time is more pace= more power. But pace is in the ball, and has nothing to do how deep the ball goes. You notice the pace after the bounce.
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
#37
Just tell me English is not your native language & I'll believe you.

I think you're a bit mired in semantics. I get more pace playing with open string patterns than with closed string patterns. Whatever the reason, I perceive that to be an increase in power. More pace is equivalent to more power, yes?
If you have any playsight courts around that's the real way to find out. You may be surprised with some of the stats on pace.

Robin is correct imo, the power would equate to higher MPH on your shots. The pattern is more about the trajectory of the shot. It's easier to get the ball to launch higher out of the bed with a more open pattern but it doesn't mean you are hitting with more power. It feels like it though so that is why many people will say that.
 
#38
If you have any playsight courts around that's the real way to find out. You may be surprised with some of the stats on pace.

Robin is correct imo, the power would equate to higher MPH on your shots. The pattern is more about the trajectory of the shot. It's easier to get the ball to launch higher out of the bed with a more open pattern but it doesn't mean you are hitting with more power. It feels like it though so that is why many people will say that.
And if you are getting more spin you will be able to hit harder without the ball sailing. Again not the same thing as power. But an easy mistake to make.
 
#39
My feeling is that I get more power from low string tension, but your take is interesting and could be valid too.

Cheers, Toby
I understand what you mean, but the ball flies longer from low tension then with high tension, when you hit the same swing. So the ball goes deeper in the court and a lot of people think thats power.
Tecnifibre had a long study( and university's 2) at this subject. My friend Dieter Calle, customize a lot of rackets for many pro players, worked for Tecnifibre and shown the results to me. And you can feel it for yourself. Take 2 of the same rackets, one with a low and one with a high tension. Hit a ball with the same swing ( armspeed) and you will see. The racket with the low tension will play the ball deeper.
And if you have the same racket but with an different stringpattern, 16x18 will fly further then 18x20 and probably with a higher trajectory, that will bounce higher, because the ball came from an higher altitude. And some think thats more pace, but its not.
 
#41
If you have any playsight courts around that's the real way to find out. You may be surprised with some of the stats on pace.

Robin is correct imo, the power would equate to higher MPH on your shots. The pattern is more about the trajectory of the shot. It's easier to get the ball to launch higher out of the bed with a more open pattern but it doesn't mean you are hitting with more power. It feels like it though so that is why many people will say that.
Thats right
And a lot of people will be surprised!
 
#42
No not selective reading. And its not only in this thread. Maybe because of my background, im a high level coach, but most things are related to a good tecnique. And yes less strings make spin easier. But with a good tecnique matter.
Not to be difficult here but isn’t the technique issue kind of beside the point? With good technique using a smaller head size doesn’t really matter either. And yet the pros don’t play with 85sq in heads either because it makes it harder than it needs to be.

That’s how it was for me. Sure I can generate spin with the closed pattern. But it takes a lot more effort for this once to twice a week player. I suppose if I went out and hit for hours everyday and really nailed my form down it wouldn’t matter. But then I’d also have to quit my job which might the rest of my life pretty difficult.

It’s all about trade offs and what works for you.
 
#43
Not to be difficult here but isn’t the technique issue kind of beside the point? With good technique using a smaller head size doesn’t really matter either. And yet the pros don’t play with 85sq in heads either because it makes it harder than it needs to be.

That’s how it was for me. Sure I can generate spin with the closed pattern. But it takes a lot more effort for this once to twice a week player. I suppose if I went out and hit for hours everyday and really nailed my form down it wouldn’t matter. But then I’d also have to quit my job which might the rest of my life pretty difficult.

It’s all about trade offs and what works for you.
Thats correct. But that wasn't the point. Ofcourse an open pattern makes it easier. But you can hit a very heavy spinball with a closed pattern. And I ment more that a lot of people think you need an open pattern to hit a good spinball, but with a good tecnique that doesnt matter. And some think you can play with spin with an open pattern when you hit flat.. You have to make a movement....
 
#44
Thats correct. But that wasn't the point. Ofcourse an open pattern makes it easier. But you can hit a very heavy spinball with a closed pattern. And I ment more that a lot of people think you need an open pattern to hit a good spinball, but with a good tecnique that doesnt matter. And some think you can play with spin with an open pattern when you hit flat.. You have to make a movement....
I’m not sure if anyone thinks it’s quite that simple. But you’re forgetting that a lot of TTW users are just looking for a quick fix/magic bullet that will take their game to the next level. Sadly that’s just not how it works.
 
#45
I’m not sure if anyone thinks it’s quite that simple. But you’re forgetting that a lot of TTW users are just looking for a quick fix/magic bullet that will take their game to the next level. Sadly that’s just not how it works.
Ive read a lot of.... **** in a lot of topics and sadly, there are people who thinks like that..
I know, thats why I react sometimes. To tell them the truth. And there are no magic bullets.. Good material helps a little bit(Some lead at some places can help also a bit.), but you have to put some time in developing your skills.
 
#46
Yeah well I’m not him. If you generate consistently good racquet head speed and play with poly then it’s not an issue. Most pros it seems prefer the 18x20 pattern and for good reason. The directional control it gives you is real. But for me the loss of spin on ground strokes was also real. Like I said as soon as I switched from the 100P (18x20) to the 100L (16x18) mybgroundstrokes improved. These racquets are almost identical (since the 100L is weighted up to about 325 grams) except for the strong pattern.
The 100L has a totally different profile than 100P

100P
  • 7 points HL
  • 326g
100L
  • Even balance
  • 289g
 
#47
Ive read a lot of.... **** in a lot of topics and sadly, there are people who thinks like that..
I know, thats why I react sometimes. To tell them the truth. And there are no magic bullets.. Good material helps a little bit(Some lead at some places can help also a bit.), but you have to put some time in developing your skills.
I think equipment makes up 10% of your results.
The rest is the player.

I just want a racket setup that will not get in my own way
 
#49
Rabbit, lots of people here, including myself dont have English as our native language, so please dont go down that road. I speak 4 languages, so sometimes things get mixed up, but I am sure most people here get the meaning anyway.

Cheers, Toby
There was a method to my madness, but going down roads is what we do here.
 
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